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Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

In the original languages God is detailed removing ambiguity we argue about.
What we get too often from English translations has us punching at things not there.

Here is one example.

I will let you answer about it first.

Matthew 4:3. It typically states...

"The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Simple enough?

What was Satan tempting Jesus about?

..........
I think I understand what you are getting at, but it is not what I was talking about. We are talking past each other, I think.

Yes, God is precise, detailed and exactly accurate in the originals.

But what I am talking about is that none of us can get to the end of intricacy and depth of meaning and use of the language he speaks to us with. Our problem is not that there is information lacking, so much as that we are ignorant, blind, deaf, foolish and presumptuous, and continually operate under the misconception that our concepts represent reality.
 
I think I understand what you are getting at, but it is not what I was talking about. We are talking past each other, I think.

Yes, God is precise, detailed and exactly accurate in the originals.

But what I am talking about is that none of us can get to the end of intricacy and depth of meaning and use of the language he speaks to us with. Our problem is not that there is information lacking, so much as that we are ignorant, blind, deaf, foolish and presumptuous, and continually operate under the misconception that our concepts represent reality.

Ignorance is our biggest enemy. For it is truth that will make us free.

God does not want us ignorant of what is essential knowledge needed for our time...

God must provide a way for that reason.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Philippians 1:9​

...............
 
I think I understand what you are getting at, but it is not what I was talking about. We are talking past each other, I think.

Yes, God is precise, detailed and exactly accurate in the originals.

But what I am talking about is that none of us can get to the end of intricacy and depth of meaning and use of the language he speaks to us with. Our problem is not that there is information lacking, so much as that we are ignorant, blind, deaf, foolish and presumptuous, and continually operate under the misconception that our concepts represent reality.


Would you like some insight into what Matthew 4:3 says in the Greek that you can not know from the English?
"The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Why should such a thing be seen as a temptation for Jesus?
 
Ignorance is our biggest enemy. For it is truth that will make us free.

God does not want us ignorant of what is essential knowledge needed for our time...

God must provide a way for that reason.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight." Philippians 1:9​

...............
For the lost, sin, even self, is their biggest enemy. For the redeemed, the "Old Man" is their biggest enemy. But you have a point.
 
makesends said:
I think I understand what you are getting at, but it is not what I was talking about. We are talking past each other, I think.

Yes, God is precise, detailed and exactly accurate in the originals.

But what I am talking about is that none of us can get to the end of intricacy and depth of meaning and use of the language he speaks to us with. Our problem is not that there is information lacking, so much as that we are ignorant, blind, deaf, foolish and presumptuous, and continually operate under the misconception that our concepts represent reality.

Would you like some insight into what Matthew 4:3 says in the Greek that you can not know from the English?
"The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Why should such a thing be seen as a temptation for Jesus?
Is this an answer to what I said? How does this answer what I said?
 
makesends said:
I think I understand what you are getting at, but it is not what I was talking about. We are talking past each other, I think.

Yes, God is precise, detailed and exactly accurate in the originals.

But what I am talking about is that none of us can get to the end of intricacy and depth of meaning and use of the language he speaks to us with. Our problem is not that there is information lacking, so much as that we are ignorant, blind, deaf, foolish and presumptuous, and continually operate under the misconception that our concepts represent reality.


Is this an answer to what I said? How does this answer what I said?
With ice cream....
 
Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.


Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.


When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................
Good, you're starting to get it...

But by saying, "If Total Depravity is true, God has nothing to Save"; it's like saying God had nothing to restore after He made King Nebuchadnezer as a beast of the field...

Everybody is something, not nothing; right?
 
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The formulation of "total depravity" is not that man is totally corrupt. It is that all aspects of man are corrupted. In other words the "whole" of man is corrupted. Man is not as bad as he *could* be but there is no uncorrupted part of him.

Or to think of it another way...consider a perfect mirror. It reflects whatever stands in front of it perfectly. A perfect image.

Now smudge it with your thumb. The image is marred. No matter where you stand that smudge sticks out like a sore...well...thumb. It is a corrupted image. No longer perfect. Not as bad as if you had, say, spray painted the mirror black. But not perfect either.
Tarnex :)

It's as if each piece of the Armor has a smudge. Provisionism has a smudge on every piece of the Armor, except the Helmet; so the Head can choose Christ unencumbered...

That's not Arminianism @civic
 
Good, you're starting to get it...

But by saying, "If Total Depravity is true, God has nothing to Save"; it's like saying God had nothing to restore after He made King Nebuchadnezer as a beast of the field...

Everybody is something, not nothing; right?
The correct term should read more like.....

"Enslaved by depravity." Not.. "Total depravity."

For once God frees the soul from the tyranny of the sinful flesh?
That soul is free not to be depraved in its actions.

Just like when Jesus cast the demons from Legion.


Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside,
and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus,
they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting
there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid." Mark 5:14-15​


Before salvation the sin nature in our flesh "possessed" the actions and thoughts of our soul.
Total domination = flesh inducing constant depravity.

God is free to crush the sovereignty of the sin nature over our soul because we have been
crucified with Christ! From God's perspective our flesh is dead! Our flesh has no right, nor claim to our soul.
 
The correct term should read more like.....

"Enslaved by depravity." Not.. "Total depravity."

For once God frees the soul from the tyranny of the sinful flesh?
That soul is free not to be depraved in its actions.

Just like when Jesus cast the demons from Legion.


Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside,
and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus,
they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting
there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid." Mark 5:14-15​


Before salvation the sin nature in our flesh "possessed" the actions and thoughts of our soul.
Total domination = flesh inducing constant depravity.

God is free to crush the sovereignty of the sin nature over our soul because we have been
crucified with Christ! From God's perspective our flesh is dead! Our flesh has no right, nor claim to our soul.
Perhaps renaming the Doctrines isn't a bad idea, but Total Depravity is good enough; because the Totality of our Faculties are Depraved. But when we know what Total Depravity is, we don't have to quarrel about renaming it; the definition stays the same no matter the name...

Total Depravity means that even the Free Will falls short of the Glory of God; because it's faculty is Depraved...

Your OP says Depravity is true, you even say there is nothing we can do; that's Total Depravity. If you want to change your Mind and now say there is something we can do; that's a Bait and Switch Logical Fallacy. You are teaching Total Inability without teaching Total Depravity; why? You have a Paradox. How can Total Inability, and Total Ability; both be true?
 
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Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.


When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity​

R.C. Sproul



TULIP-and-Reformed-Theology_620.jpg


The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.

Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.

The doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.

I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.​

This article is part of the TULIP and Reformed Theology collection and was originally published May 25, 2017.


Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.
Aren't non-believers already in a condemned state and alienated from God? Which is why they need saving?
If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................
GeneZ you really need to do your homework and dig into these debates. My suggestion is go to those debates in the Reformation era and read them. Because fallen are doing what they want and desire. There is nothing a fallen man or woman can offer God to find favor. To think there is something a sinner can offer God in exchange for favor is not only lacking insight, but is not Scriptural. But knowing what plight a sinner is in before a Holy God is Scriptural that he/she stands condemned because of sin, correct?

I believe you are mudding the waters and suggesting that people are good, and do have a moral compass. But if you understood the Righteousness of God, then you would be trembling at the thought of it.​
 
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Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.
Nope. Man's (and Woman's) nature has never changed.

Adam, Jesus, and me have the SAME HUMAN NATURE.

Adam followed the Temptation sequence in James 1 perfectly, let his lust conceive, and fell into SIN, just like all of us.

Jesus, on the other hand, was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE, but didn't allow HIS lust to conceive, and result in sinful actions.
 
Perhaps renaming the Doctrines isn't a bad idea, but Total Depravity is good enough; because they Totality of our Faculties are Depraved.

The soul is like a slave to whatever it is submitting to, and must do what its master dictates.

Once our old slave master (the flesh) became crucified with Christ? The soul was no longer is innately depraved.
To say its total depravity? Both body and soul? Would mean that the soul will always have to be antagonistic to God.

That is why the term "total depravity" is a misnomer. Man from birth is enslaved by depravity.

Man's soul is enslaved to depravity until God steps in with his grace and overpowers the old slave master (the flesh),
giving that soul a chance to freely decide for itself what its going to believe.

That does not mean that when God enables as soul to freely choose that that soul must choose for God.
It means, he was made for the first time (by grace) enabled to choose for God.

If a soul insists upon rejecting God while the sin nature was shut down by grace? Its no longer the flesh that
dominates and motivates that soul. So, when that soul chooses free of the sin nature to reject God's will? That soul
becomes a reenactment of what the angels who fell did when they rejected God. Its not to be called
"sin." That kind of resistance to God's will is labelled "EVIL." Evil was the originator of what became sin.

For Satan rejected the authority of the Lord while yet in a unfallen state. His rejection( in effect) was like
Adam (while yet in his perfection) biting into the apple.

One difference with Adam. He had a higher power tempt him.
With Satan? There was none higher to tempt him.
Satan's evil transformed himself into becoming the father of lies.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own
nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44​

grace and truth ..................
 
Nope. Man's (and Woman's) nature has never changed.
You are confessing that God is the author of sin by creating Adam sinful.

Being able to sin (tempted) is not the same thing as having a nature that will make us to sin.
 
Perhaps renaming the Doctrines isn't a bad idea, but Total Depravity is good enough; because they Totality of our Faculties are Depraved. But when we know what Total Depravity is, we don't have to quarrel about renaming it; the definition stays the same no matter the name...

Total Depravity means that even the Free Will falls short of the Glory of God; because it's faculty is Depraved...

Your OP says Depravity is true, you even say there is nothing we can do; that's Total Depravity. If you want to change your Mind and now say there is something we can do; that's a Bait and Switch Logical Fallacy. You are teaching Total Inability without teaching Total Depravity; why? You have a Paradox. How can Total Inability, and Total Ability; both be true?
Consider the Biblical change from Total Depravity. Total justification. Total regeneration. What the Spirit had done in us is a complete birth. The question is not are we now sinless, but what is the NATURE of the new heart within us.

Further, 'Total Depravity' does imply that there is nothing good enough to be called good in God's eyes. All our deeds as fallen humans are corrupt! No matter how much good there is in them, WE are not good. Only God is good, and HE is the nature of our regeneration.
 
Consider the Biblical change from Total Depravity. Total justification. Total regeneration. What the Spirit had done in us is a complete birth. The question is not are we now sinless, but what is the NATURE of the new heart within us.

Further, 'Total Depravity' does imply that there is nothing good enough to be called good in God's eyes. All our deeds as fallen humans are corrupt! No matter how much good there is in them, WE are not good. Only God is good, and HE is the nature of our regeneration.
Total Justification 🥰

Sounds like a Term I would come up with 😉
 
Consider the Biblical change from Total Depravity. Total justification. Total regeneration. What the Spirit had done in us is a complete birth. The question is not are we now sinless, but what is the NATURE of the new heart within us.

Not applicable considering that man has a soul and a body.

The body was condemned to death and the soul is justified. Can not be total Justification.
 
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Not applicable considering that man has a soul and a body.

The body is condemned to death and the soul is justified. Can not be total Justification.
It is Total Justification in Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works. You are missing the FREE GIFT of righteousness of the Gospel.

5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

So how can God justify the 'UNGODLY'??? Only a righteous man can be found justified! This is the question we must ask ourselves.​
 
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