Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[Arial]

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace. These doctrines are an attempt to establish what the grace of grace is--- why it is necessary, how it operates to bring a person to Christ in faith and keeps them in Christ. "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith---and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

These five doctrines of grace are biblically worked out through the full counsel of God on salvation and they deal with each element of salvation. Why it takes grace, who receives this grace, the role of the atonement of Christ, how grace is given, and the security of this grace. Humans are not the central issue in arriving at these doctrines, but God is. Humans are the beneficiaries of God's grace. It is the grace of God itself that is being placed in sound biblical doctrine, that can be checked and affirmed by the Scriptures. The first doctrine to be established is the condition of man before the Almighty God. Once that is established the other doctrines in the letters of the acronym TULIP, follow naturally, according to Scripture. If T is true according to Scripture, then U must be true according to Scripture, if T and U are true according to Scripture, L according to Scripture must be and so on. If the first four are true the only conclusion is the P. The basis for each letter is not human logic but according to the Bible declarations on the matter.

For the sake of space, I cannot be fully comprehensive in giving all the scriptures that support the T. Any questions can be answered as they come up---even involving the ULIP and how they relate to the T.

My purpose is this OP is twofold.
1. To establish the relationship between God and man that makes His grace necessary.
2. To alleviate the tendency of opponents to the doctrines of grace to base all opposition on a philosophical "free will." Free will or even man's will at all, is not actually a part of the doctrine. It has been made to be. Total depravity is a doctrine of God. The doctrine in Total Depravity utterly rules out any legitimate discussion of man's will, "free" or otherwise, in any of the following doctrines of grace.

Total depravity begins with who God is, so we must start at the beginning. In the creation account of Gen. we learn that everything came into existence by and from and for God. We learn that earth and all that it is in it was created as man's home, everything was good and perfect. Each created thing having its place and its purpose, with God dwelling there, providing for and communicating with Adam and Eve and they with Him. They were given a commission to tend to and care for the Garden where He placed them and all of creation. Man alone was created in the image and likeness of God. Which means he was similar to God in many ways, but exactly like Him in no way. As such he was a sentient being in that he could think, feel, move about, reason, make choices, etc. Not the least of which is have relationships, the primary one being an intimate relationship with God, and second with each other. This demanded that Adam and Eve conduct themselves with each other and creation itself as His image bearers.

The two trees, were there, one the tree of life, which would keep life in mankind, which he could eat of as he could of every other tree but one. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To eat of this tree would bring death. This shows us that Adam and Eve, were created mortal---able to die----and corruptible, but not corrupt. The consequence of Adam eating of that forbidden fruit, (for Eve was deceived, but Adam's eating was open rebellion) was both of them being cast out of the Garden, away from access to the tree of life, and a curse put on them and the ground. The intimate relationship between God and man was severed and through Adam as the first man, to all the rest of mankind, and even to the creation itself. (1 Cor 15:45-47) In that passage we see the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, who we see promised in Gen 3 when God cursed the serpent. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head.

The intimate relationship mankind was created to have with his Creator was broken. Humanity became a race of sinners. Sure, they could still do some good things, they were not always as bad as they could be. They still had a conscience. They still had the image and likeness of God with which they were created. What they could not do was reconcile themselves to God and regain that intimate relationship.

They could not undo what they had become. And that does not only apply to Adam and Eve, but to all born after them for everyone is made of the same stuff as Adam. We sin. We have sinful desires and act on them. We even like a great many of them. God and man stand as enemies, not friends. That is the relationship we have to God. There is nothing we can do to rectify the situation, to become justified before God and reconciled to Him.

God Himself must do everything necessary for that reconciliation. And only His grace will do so. There is nothing in us that deserves reconciliation with Him, and nothing we can do that will merit reconciliation. We have to receive from God, the righteousness of the Seed of the woman, who conquers the deceiving serpent, imputed to us

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved.

 

[Alive]

I agree 100% Without T, the whole structure caves in, but because T is a reality, the rest is necessary.

 

[His clay]

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace. These doctrines are an attempt to establish what the grace of grace is--- why it is necessary, how it operates to bring a person to Christ in faith and keeps them in Christ. "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith---and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

These five doctrines of grace are biblically worked out through the full counsel of God on salvation and they deal with each element of salvation. Why it takes grace, who receives this grace, the role of the atonement of Christ, how grace is given, and the security of this grace. Humans are not the central issue in arriving at these doctrines, but God is. Humans are the beneficiaries of God's grace. It is the grace of God itself that is being placed in sound biblical doctrine, that can be checked and affirmed by the Scriptures. The first doctrine to be established is the condition of man before the Almighty God. Once that is established the other doctrines in the letters of the acronym TULIP, follow naturally, according to Scripture. If T is true according to Scripture, then U must be true according to Scripture, if T and U are true according to Scripture, L according to Scripture must be and so on. If the first four are true the only conclusion is the P. The basis for each letter is not human logic but according to the Bible declarations on the matter.

For the sake of space, I cannot be fully comprehensive in giving all the scriptures that support the T. Any questions can be answered as they come up---even involving the ULIP and how they relate to the T.

My purpose is this OP is twofold.
1. To establish the relationship between God and man that makes His grace necessary.
2. To alleviate the tendency of opponents to the doctrines of grace to base all opposition on a philosophical "free will." Free will or even man's will at all, is not actually a part of the doctrine. It has been made to be. Total depravity is a doctrine of God. The doctrine in Total Depravity utterly rules out any legitimate discussion of man's will, "free" or otherwise, in any of the following doctrines of grace.

Total depravity begins with who God is, so we must start at the beginning. In the creation account of Gen. we learn that everything came into existence by and from and for God. We learn that earth and all that it is in it was created as man's home, everything was good and perfect. Each created thing having its place and its purpose, with God dwelling there, providing for and communicating with Adam and Eve and they with Him. They were given a commission to tend to and care for the Garden where He placed them and all of creation. Man alone was created in the image and likeness of God. Which means he was similar to God in many ways, but exactly like Him in no way. As such he was a sentient being in that he could think, feel, move about, reason, make choices, etc. Not the least of which is have relationships, the primary one being an intimate relationship with God, and second with each other. This demanded that Adam and Eve conduct themselves with each other and creation itself as His image bearers.

The two trees, were there, one the tree of life, which would keep life in mankind, which he could eat of as he could of every other tree but one. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To eat of this tree would bring death. This shows us that Adam and Eve, were created mortal---able to die----and corruptible, but not corrupt. The consequence of Adam eating of that forbidden fruit, (for Eve was deceived, but Adam's eating was open rebellion) was both of them being cast out of the Garden, away from access to the tree of life, and a curse put on them and the ground. The intimate relationship between God and man was severed and through Adam as the first man, to all the rest of mankind, and even to the creation itself. (1 Cor 15:45-47) In that passage we see the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, who we see promised in Gen 3 when God cursed the serpent. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head.

The intimate relationship mankind was created to have with his Creator was broken. Humanity became a race of sinners. Sure, they could still do some good things, they were not always as bad as they could be. They still had a conscience. They still had the image and likeness of God with which they were created. What they could not do was reconcile themselves to God and regain that intimate relationship.

They could not undo what they had become. And that does not only apply to Adam and Eve, but to all born after them for everyone is made of the same stuff as Adam. We sin. We have sinful desires and act on them. We even like a great many of them. God and man stand as enemies, not friends. That is the relationship we have to God. There is nothing we can do to rectify the situation, to become justified before God and reconciled to Him.

God Himself must do everything necessary for that reconciliation. And only His grace will do so. There is nothing in us that deserves reconciliation with Him, and nothing we can do that will merit reconciliation. We have to receive from God, the righteousness of the Seed of the woman, who conquers the deceiving serpent, imputed to us

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved.

I disagree, largely with the title and the final paragraph. But I'll lurk to see if others mention the issue I'm seeing. I'm busy working on another project.

 

[Arial]

I disagree, largely with the title and the final paragraph. But I'll lurk to see if others mention the issue I'm seeing. I'm busy working on another project.

I shall wait with patience and intrigued.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Arial,

I have to admit, I found the OP hard to read. You obviously put a lot of thought into it and this is very important to you.

My focus here will be less on the theology and more on the effective delivery. Ever hear of Ayn Rand? A famous story about her before a convention where she was about to give the keynote address is that a bell boy challenged her to state her philosophy while standing on one leg. Brevity is the soul of wit - and why commercials are only 30 seconds. You begin to lose people after that.

Sure, they could still do some good things, they were not always as bad as they could be. They still had a conscience. They still had the image and likeness of God with which they were created. What they could not do was reconcile themselves to God and regain that intimate relationship.

One wonders what all the sacrifices in the Bible are all about if not reconciliation to God?

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed.

Simplified and condensed huh? Oy vey!

If "Total Depravity" includes actually doing some good things, what is it called when one does not do some good things? (I ask as one using ordinary language, not Calvinist charged terms).

 

[Arial]

I have to admit, I found the OP hard to read. You obviously put a lot of thought into it and this is very important to you.

My focus here will be less on the theology and more on the effective delivery. Ever hear of Ayn Rand? A famous story about her before a convention where she was about to give the keynote address is that a bell boy challenged her to state her philosophy while standing on one leg. Brevity is the soul of wit - and why commercials are only 30 seconds. You begin to lose people after that.

That is your problem, not mine. It was not posted for self appointed experts to judge it on it delivery. The fact that you have difficulty comprehending anything past a Google blip level shows in both your comments and your theology, and yet we are supposed to believe that you know what you are talking about when you come against Christian doctrine. ANything below this post and any other post in this thread that does not deal with the content of the OP will simply be deleted.

One wonders what all the sacrifices in the Bible are all about if not reconciliation to God?

Not a single one of them reconciled a single person to God. Heb 10:4-10 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desire, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book"

When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings," (these are offered according to the law) then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Simplified and condensed huh? Oy vey!

If that was too much for you the deep stuff of it that could fill a book will never be mined. Is it not important enough to care about?

If "Total Depravity" includes actually doing some good things, what is it called when one does not do some good things? (I ask as one using ordinary language, not Calvinist charged terms).

It is called not doing some good things. Make sensible comments. Ask sensible questions. "Actually doing some good things" is simply showing what the total depravity doctrine is not. It is often accused of meaning that people never do anything good, and since people do good things as well as bad things, then the doctrine can't be true. It is a false accusation.

 

[His clay]

I shall wait with patience and intrigued.

The title states, "Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will."

The final paragraph of the opening post states, "This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved."

Questions: What prompted you to seek to explain TD without reference to the human will? Why do you see this tactic as important? What function does the human will have?

Obviously, you don't have to answer these questions; but I'm curious as to why this road was taken.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Bible teaches the total depravity of the human race. Total depravity means radical corruption. We must be careful to note the difference between total depravity and "utter" depravity. To be utterly depraved is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. I am sinner. Yet I could sin more often and more severely than I actually do. I am not utterly depraved, but I am totally depraved. For total depravity means that I and everyone else are
depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin.

Perhaps "radical corruption" is a better term to describe our fallen condition than "total depravity." I am using the word "radical" not so much to mean "extreme," but to lean more heavily on its original meaning. "Radical" comes from the Latin word for "root" or "core." Our problem with sin is that it is rooted in the core of our being. It permeates our hearts. It is because sin is at our core and not merely at the exterior of our lives that the Bible says: "There is none righteous, no not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12

It is because of this condition that the verdict of Scripture is heard: we are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); we are "sold under sin" (Romans 7:14); we are in "captivity to the law of sin" (Romans 7:23); and "by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). Only by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit may we be brought out of this state of spiritual death. It is God who makes us alive as we become His craftsmanship (Ephesians 2:1-10).

When something is started, we say that it is generated. If it is started again, it is regenerated. The Greek verb geniauo that is translated as “generate” means “to be,” “to become,” or “to happen.” Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is a change. It is a radical change into a new kind of being.

Calvin, stated that sinners do have a free-will and sin without compulsion, meaning nobody coerces sinners to sin. They sin because they are sinners, this is now their fallen nature in Adam. Paul says, Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The Trinity do work together as one to saves sinners from this plight. God made a Covenant of Redemption from eternity to save his people from their sins, the Son willingly signed his own death warrant to redeem them with his blood, and the Holy Spirit through the Proclamation of the Gospel regenerates the hearts and minds of God's people to be able to see, hear, trust and believe in him to who the scripture testify.​

 

[Ritajanice]

Just my thoughts here.

No one on the planet would know how to draw themselves to Jesus, let alone know him in their heart/ spirit....how can anyone believe in Jesus in their heart/ spirit,without divine revelation, sorry imo you can’t...that’s what being Born Of The Spirit is all about “ divine revelation “.

Only God via His Spirit can draw us to believe in Jesus, plus we must be Born Again, ...how can our depraved nature / heart draw us to God?....I must admit throughout my life I often wondered what true love would be like....I certainly wasn’t thinking about God at the time.

.i can’t cant say I hadn’t done a lot of searching myself before I became Born Again, I did, I certainly didn’t know that I was searching my heart and searching for God....in retrospect I can see God very vividly drawing me to Jesus throughout my hell hole of a life,

Yet, he decided by his mercy and grace to reveal himself to my heart/ spirit when he gifted me faith and brought my spirit from death to life....of course I didn’t even understand that at the time, I only knew I was Born Again by divine revelation.for those who don’t understand “ divine revelation “ means...The Holy Spirit revealing himself to me and testifying/witnessing Gods truth to my heart / spirit.....the Holy Spirit has brought me to understanding Gods word....and every so often I believe I am led by the Spirit Of God, to speak from the heart/ spirit...

Also being saved on its own makes no sense to me, we are Born Of The Spirit, only then are we saved from eternal damnation..

This doctrine teaches that as a result of the fall of Adam, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are incapable of coming to Christ or doing anything truly good apart from the grace of God (Rom.5:12; Ps.51:5; Eph.2:1-3).

 

[Mr GLee]

Arial,

I have to admit, I found the OP hard to read. You obviously put a lot of thought into it and this is very important to you.

My focus here will be less on the theology and more on the effective delivery. Ever hear of Ayn Rand? A famous story about her before a convention where she was about to give the keynote address is that a bell boy challenged her to state her philosophy while standing on one leg. Brevity is the soul of wit - and why commercials are only 30 seconds. You begin to lose people after that.


One wonders what all the sacrifices in the Bible are all about if not reconciliation to God?

Simplified and condensed huh? Oy vey!

If "Total Depravity" includes actually doing some good things, what is it called when one does not do some good things? (I ask as one using ordinary language, not Calvinist charged terms).

Ceremonial sacrifices are used as shadow a sign to the unbelieving world . It was not used to identify the performers as a witness. I did it proves it. The pouring out Christ unseen spirit life on dying flesh and blood .

When Aarons two sons on the first day of becoming a member priesthood they added strange fire in a hope of. . I did it it proves it . They were consumed not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire. it would include any work we can perform .To include reading the Bile or going to church all shadows.

The whole period there was Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation ) was used as a parable until the time of the reformation .All of the shadows that spoke of the sufferings of Christ beforehand became sight

The two high walls fell that separated the Jewish women from the Jewish men who performed the ceremonies (men's only club)
Another wall that separated Gentile men and woman from the Jews. Mixed families could now come as the one Christian bride

One new ceremonial sign as shadow to the world was given 1 Corinthian 11. The hair covering and cup wedding super. . . shadow.

Not I did it it proves it. (shadow worship )

Living in bodies of death (the wage of sin). . in and with Christ we have the treasure of new born again spirit life but would never say it comes from those who have no power (faith)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

In that way Christ has no left us without a witness of his power (faith) Calling it the better thing that freely accompany salvation . Chrsit our husband will not forget the good works we can miraculously offer according to the power of his name

Hebrew 6:9-11 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister

 

[Arial]

The title states, "Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will."

The final paragraph of the opening post states, "This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved."

Questions: What prompted you to seek to explain TD without reference to the human will? Why do you see this tactic as important? What function does the human will have?

Obviously, you don't have to answer these questions; but I'm curious as to why this road was taken.

What prompted it was a conversation I was in about total depravity and the way in which "free" will came into the debate, as it always does. In that particular discussion it was asserted that total depravity would take away man's free will, and was the first thing that was wrong with "Calvinism". My counter was that total depravity had nothing to do with the human will and therefore neither did the other doctrines of grace. I said that I would attempt to define total depravity without any reference to the human will. That it was the very foundation that made the ULIP necessary.

The function that the human will has is to be able to do the will of God given at creation for us. To tend to and care for the creation, to multiply and fill the earth, to commune with Him and each other in fellowship. Without a will we could not do this

 

[Ritajanice]

it was asserted that total depravity would take away man's free will, and was the first thing that was wrong with "Calvinism

Hi Arial...how can it take away our freewill, when it’s not our choice to become Born Again, talking about some others here, not you.

What has freewill got to do with being Born Again by Gods will.

Some understand that as force ...it’s not, but, some just don’t understand that the Born Again were chosen and predestined to become Born Of God....it all happens quite naturally as you well know.

 

[Mr GLee]

Hi Arial...how can it take away our freewill, when it’s not our choice to become Born Again, talking about some others here, not you.

What has freewill got to do with being Born Again by Gods will.

Some understand that as force ...it’s not, but, some just don’t understand that the Born Again were chosen and predestined to become Born Of God....it all happens quite naturally as you well know.

I would offer. .

It is a supernatural source of God alone the go. go power of His faithfulness.

It is determined by both (the gospel key ) Give us ears and understand the will of Christ. . . and the same power to do it to his good pleasure (Philippian 2:13-14)

Jesus did the will of the Father with delight .Some like Jonah who was dragged kicking against the pricks and desired to die rather than see God having mercy on those he hated .

God is not served by the dying hands of mankind in any way shape or form . His will works with our new born again will .

The food or daily bread to both hear and finish the work of the father. . . yoked with the believer. The daily bread the apostles knew not of at first

John 4:33-34King James VersionTherefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is a supernatural source of God alone the go

Amen!

 

[JIM]

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace. These doctrines are an attempt to establish what the grace of grace is--- why it is necessary, how it operates to bring a person to Christ in faith and keeps them in Christ. "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith---and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

These five doctrines of grace are biblically worked out through the full counsel of God on salvation and they deal with each element of salvation. Why it takes grace, who receives this grace, the role of the atonement of Christ, how grace is given, and the security of this grace. Humans are not the central issue in arriving at these doctrines, but God is. Humans are the beneficiaries of God's grace. It is the grace of God itself that is being placed in sound biblical doctrine, that can be checked and affirmed by the Scriptures. The first doctrine to be established is the condition of man before the Almighty God. Once that is established the other doctrines in the letters of the acronym TULIP, follow naturally, according to Scripture. If T is true according to Scripture, then U must be true according to Scripture, if T and U are true according to Scripture, L according to Scripture must be and so on. If the first four are true the only conclusion is the P. The basis for each letter is not human logic but according to the Bible declarations on the matter.

For the sake of space, I cannot be fully comprehensive in giving all the scriptures that support the T. Any questions can be answered as they come up---even involving the ULIP and how they relate to the T.

My purpose is this OP is twofold.
1. To establish the relationship between God and man that makes His grace necessary.
2. To alleviate the tendency of opponents to the doctrines of grace to base all opposition on a philosophical "free will." Free will or even man's will at all, is not actually a part of the doctrine. It has been made to be. Total depravity is a doctrine of God. The doctrine in Total Depravity utterly rules out any legitimate discussion of man's will, "free" or otherwise, in any of the following doctrines of grace.

Total depravity begins with who God is, so we must start at the beginning. In the creation account of Gen. we learn that everything came into existence by and from and for God. We learn that earth and all that it is in it was created as man's home, everything was good and perfect. Each created thing having its place and its purpose, with God dwelling there, providing for and communicating with Adam and Eve and they with Him. They were given a commission to tend to and care for the Garden where He placed them and all of creation. Man alone was created in the image and likeness of God. Which means he was similar to God in many ways, but exactly like Him in no way. As such he was a sentient being in that he could think, feel, move about, reason, make choices, etc. Not the least of which is have relationships, the primary one being an intimate relationship with God, and second with each other. This demanded that Adam and Eve conduct themselves with each other and creation itself as His image bearers.

The two trees, were there, one the tree of life, which would keep life in mankind, which he could eat of as he could of every other tree but one. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To eat of this tree would bring death. This shows us that Adam and Eve, were created mortal---able to die----and corruptible, but not corrupt. The consequence of Adam eating of that forbidden fruit, (for Eve was deceived, but Adam's eating was open rebellion) was both of them being cast out of the Garden, away from access to the tree of life, and a curse put on them and the ground. The intimate relationship between God and man was severed and through Adam as the first man, to all the rest of mankind, and even to the creation itself. (1 Cor 15:45-47) In that passage we see the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, who we see promised in Gen 3 when God cursed the serpent. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head.

The intimate relationship mankind was created to have with his Creator was broken. Humanity became a race of sinners. Sure, they could still do some good things, they were not always as bad as they could be. They still had a conscience. They still had the image and likeness of God with which they were created. What they could not do was reconcile themselves to God and regain that intimate relationship.

They could not undo what they had become. And that does not only apply to Adam and Eve, but to all born after them for everyone is made of the same stuff as Adam. We sin. We have sinful desires and act on them. We even like a great many of them. God and man stand as enemies, not friends. That is the relationship we have to God. There is nothing we can do to rectify the situation, to become justified before God and reconciled to Him.

God Himself must do everything necessary for that reconciliation. And only His grace will do so. There is nothing in us that deserves reconciliation with Him, and nothing we can do that will merit reconciliation. We have to receive from God, the righteousness of the Seed of the woman, who conquers the deceiving serpent, imputed to us

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved.

I probably do not need to say it to anyone who has read much of what I have posted in the forum , but I disagree with most, not all, of what you have said there. I won't challenge it point by point since that would require more time and energy than I have.

I will make one comment. You said, "They could not undo what they had become". I believe that is absolutely true. However, I believe that they could desperately want what they had become to be undone. I believe that is demonstrated over and over again throughout both the OT and the NT. And that, in itself, refutes the fundamental theory of Total Depravity.

 

[Arial]

@His clay

To further elaborate.

Recently, because of all the assertions of "free" will, I have come to nearly despise the expression. IMO it distracts from actually learning the doctrines of grace in their depth. If one adheres to a concept of "free" will to determine the doctrines of Christ---salvation---- the power and glory and grace and mercy of God in salvation is tamped down.

If one takes the time to read the arguments concerning free will by Pelagias and Augustine---and later what became known as semi-Pelagian, they will see that the arguments of Augustine against these heresies and concerning free will (for so the were declared) was of a different nature and focus than what it has become today.

The will is only free in a sense----that being that man has the God endowed ability to choose between one thing and another. As far as I am concerned, and that is just me, without casting aspersions on others, the human will only does what our desires move it to do. It only and ever can do anything good by the very grace of God. And it is bound by the transgression of Adam to also desire what is evil in the sight of God, and we act on it. Only God can change that in us. And by the very definition of "will", the very word itself, Christ's church would be far better off it never attached "free" to "will", but simply states things according to the relationship between God and mankind since the fall, and our inability to rectify the situation. That is actually what is in the doctrines of grace. They do not concern the will of man, free or otherwise, at all.

And the Bible did just fine without ever discussing the "free" will of man. That has been inserted into it.

 

[Ladodgers6]

@His clay

To further elaborate.

Recently, because of all the assertions of "free" will, I have come to nearly despise the expression. IMO it distracts from actually learning the doctrines of grace in their depth. If one adheres to a concept of "free" will to determine the doctrines of Christ---salvation---- the power and glory and grace and mercy of God in salvation is tamped down.

If one takes the time to read the arguments concerning free will by Pelagias and Augustine---and later what became known as semi-Pelagian, they will see that the arguments of Augustine against these heresies and concerning free will (for so the were declared) was of a different nature and focus than what it has become today.

The will is only free in a sense----that being that man has the God endowed ability to choose between one thing and another. As far as I am concerned, and that is just me, without casting aspersions on others, the human will only does what our desires move it to do. It only and ever can do anything good by the very grace of God. And it is bound by the transgression of Adam to also desire what is evil in the sight of God, and we act on it. Only God can change that in us. And by the very definition of "will", the very word itself, Christ's church would be far better off it never attached "free" to "will", but simply states things according to the relationship between God and mankind since the fall, and our inability to rectify the situation. That is actually what is in the doctrines of grace. They do not concern the will of man, free or otherwise, at all.

And the Bible did just fine without ever discussing the "free" will of man. That has been inserted into it.

In my opinion I believe we need to discuss free-will because non-reformed folks will not understand that sinners do have a free-will to sin freely without compulsion; being coerced. This is why they disagree with the Doctrines of Grace in the first place. So, if we do not explain free-will to them they will insist of coercion of the will, which is a misrepresentation of the Doctrines of Grace. I am not disagreeing with you on Doctrines of Grace, but that we must discuss free-will to open a dialogue with those who have a problem with it.

My point is this, what do we do when they ask about free-will, do we avoid it or ignore them, or do we have a discussion about it?

 

[Arial]

In my opinion I believe we need to discuss free-will because non-reformed folks will not understand that sinners do have a free-will to sin freely without compulsion; being coerced. This is why they disagree with the Doctrines of Grace in the first place. So, if we do not explain free-will to them they will insist of coercion of the will, which is a misrepresentation of the Doctrines of Grace. I am not disagreeing with you on Doctrines of Grace, but that we must discuss free-will to open a dialogue with those who have a problem with it.

Fair enough. I am just stating how I have come to feel about it. But then, I have it fairly well worked out in my mind over the accumulation of years, and those purporting free will in choosing Christ, either without grace altogether, or with grace given to all as a means of choosing rightly or rejecting altogether, have not.

And the arguments put forth by Geisler in "Chosen But Free" and the Open Theists, in particular are very persuasive. Not to mention it has been taught to almost the exclusion of all else in the post modern church. And without a spec of the Reformed view even being mentioned or examined.

My point is this, what do we do they ask about free-will, do we avoid it or ignore them, or do we have a discussion about it?

Oh, I agree there should be a discussion about it in that case. But they seldom ask, they just tell. And pay no mind to anything that is said on our part about it. Nevertheless, we speak, plant the seed, God does the growing. It may be that those who bullheadedly stick to their guns in a debate are not the ones God sends to hear.

 

[Arial]

I probably do not need to say it to anyone who has read much of what I have posted in the forum , but I disagree with most, not all, of what you have said there. I won't challenge it point by point since that would require more time and energy than I have.

I will make one comment. You said, "They could not undo what they had become". I believe that is absolutely true. However, I believe that they could desperately want what they had become to be undone. I believe that is demonstrated over and over again throughout both the OT and the NT. And that, in itself, refutes the fundamental theory of Total Depravity.

It does not dispute the doctrine of Total Depravity. Here is why.

The Doctrine of Total Depravity is not dealing with whatever desires man may have. It is not dealing with whether or not humans can sometimes do good or desire good or hate their sins. It is dealing with who God is and man's relationship to and condition before God. It establishes that the problem of sin, and man's very nature to sin, can only be changed by God Himself. And it requires His grace. The following doctrines of that grace, show the operation of grace from the perspective of God, towards those He reconciles to Himself.

 

[Rella]

That is your problem, not mine. It was not posted for self appointed experts to judge it on it delivery. The fact that you have difficulty comprehending anything past a Google blip level shows in both your comments and your theology, and yet we are supposed to believe that you know what you are talking about when you come against Christian doctrine. ANything below this post and any other post in this thread that does not deal with the content of the OP will simply be deleted.

Borrowing this answer to Soldier of Christ I do have one question concerning the content of the OP.

Why is it to be assumed that the will or free will is non existent in total depravity?

If it were to be considered, what damage would it do to the explanation?

Thanks

Not a single one of them reconciled a single person to God. Heb 10:4-10 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desire, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book"

When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings," (these are offered according to the law) then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

If that was too much for you the deep stuff of it that could fill a book will never be mined. Is it not important enough to care about?

It is called not doing some good things. Make sensible comments. Ask sensible questions. "Actually doing some good things" is simply showing what the total depravity doctrine is not. It is often accused of meaning that people never do anything good, and since people do good things as well as bad things, then the doctrine can't be true. It is a false accusation.