Through one man, sin entered the world.

[LeviR]

If no good thing dwelt in Jesus' flesh, then he was not sinless. Romans 7:8 is written about those who had once been sinful sinners who had become redeemed and regenerate believers who were washed clean by the blood of Christ; those whose flesh had been crucified with Christ. Romans 7:8 is NOT about people who had never sinned, people who had never been found dead in sin, and/or people who hadn't taken on the form of a bondservant. Neither Paul nor his audience were Jesus. The context of Rom. 8:3 is that of people who'd been sinful but had come to know Jesus, the sinless Savior who knew no sin, whose flesh was like that of the pre-disobedient Adam, not the post-disobedient Adam. Sinlessness does not and cannot come from sinfulness. Reading Romans 8:3 as if that is not the case is an abuse of the verse.

For the record: translations that render "sarx" as "sinful nature" have taken liberties with the Greek. Denotatively the word means "flesh" and that's how the verse should be translated. Connotatively the word can refer to the character or nature of a person. In the context of Paul's larger narrative that context is that of sinful flesh, not sinless flesh.

If Jesus did not experience the weakness of the flesh as we do, it would have been a piece of cake for him to overcome the world. His flesh would be unlike ours and therefore would not be tempted as we are. In fact, he would be some non-descipt being. We couldn’t classify him as man like us with flesh like us.
All that is in the world is the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.
This is the world Jesus overcame. And exhorts us to overcome the same.
He was “crucified in weakness “ but “raised in power”
Crucified in the weakness of the mortal flesh, and raised in power of the immortal flesh.

 

[LeviR]

If it was already in Eve's flesh then God created her with it. Which you have claimed you do not say. You can't have it both ways.

You, Paul all of us, had the desire. What we didn't know until the command came is that the desire was sinful.

Yes, we know desire to sin is sinful. And Adam found out real quick when his nakedness was exposed.

 

[LeviR]

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."Luke 9:23

 

[CrowCross]

As I said before, the serpent inflamed what was already in Eve’s flesh.

Where is the verse that supports your speculation?

Remember...Eve as well as Adam...were created very good.

Sin, by the command, don’t eat it.
I had not known lust but by the command thou shall not desire it.

?????????????

 

[Josheb]

Flash and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Sinful flesh and blood definitely cannot enter. Transformed flesh and bone can enter.

Where did you read that? Certainly not in the Bible. It doesn't speak about any such transformed flesh and blood.

I really hope that you are not too disappointed when you find out that your life in heaven will be without a physical body of flesh and blood.

I got it out of scripture.

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,"comes from 1 Corinthians 15:50.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

That verse comes from a larger narrative on the resurrection and the body raised. The narrative is not about the attributes of the kingdom (as was previously claimed in error).




"Sinful flesh and blood definitely cannot enter," comes from a host of verses such as John 3:3-5; 1 Cor. 6:9; Galatians 5:19-21 and Rev. 21:27

John 3:3-5
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality........ and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:27
...and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.



"Transformed flesh and bone cane enter [God's kingdom]" comes from 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 and Philippians 3:2-21

1 Corinthians 15:35-53 (excerpted for the sake of space and clarity)
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body, which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body............ As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.............. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to himself.


Our bodies will be transformed so they conform to his body.

Luke 24:36-43
While they were telling these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be to you." But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before them.

He could appear and disappear, walk through walls, and eat solid food in his resurrected body of flesh and bone. That is the body they saw ascend.

I really hope that you are not too disappointed when you find out that your life in heaven will be without a physical body of flesh and blood.

I hope you will not be disappointed to discover you have a body in heaven. Angels have bodies. At the transfiguration the disciples saw Moses and Elijah in physical form. Throughout John's vision he sees a multitude of people multiple times. When the kingdom comes to earth in the new city of peace it is not filled with disembodied non-bodies.


More importantly, our relative disappointment has nothing to do with whether or not sin spread to all men. That's an off-topic comment that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The relevant facts are the flesh is sinful and it is sinful because sin entered the world by one man's disobedience. Through that one man's one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men and through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners. It's in the flesh, not just a spiritual-only condition.

 

[JIM]

Why is it do you say, the Bible tells us it is our flesh and blood bodies that are resurrected? Why did Jesus make a point of having Thomas put his hands in the nail holes in His flesh and blood resurrected body? Why is that 1 Cor:51-53 tell us that it is our flesh and blood bodies that will be transformed from mortal to immortal, from corrupted to incorruptible?

Jesus made that point to show Thomas and the rest that the body He came out of the tomb with was the exact same, though somewhat healed, body that He went into the tomb with. There was nothing stated about it being a glorified body as so many say.

The transformation will be from a natural (physical) body to a spiritual body. And we have no real idea what a spiritual body is. It dies a natural body it is raised a spiritual body. (1 Cor15:35-49). In the case of the resurrection the body that died will not be the body that is raised. In fact for most all the humans who have ever lived their bodies have long since ceased to even exist and have reverted to the basic chemicals to be used in other ways.

 

[LeviR]

Where is the verse that supports your speculation?

Remember...Eve as well as Adam...were created very good.

?????????????

We know the flesh has desires. A desire of the flesh to be disobedient is flesh that is sinful.
During her conversation with the serpent, Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye, and DESIRED to make her wise.
The serpent egged her on so she took it.
Adam wasn’t deceived. He ate it knowing he was putting aside what God had said to satisfy his own desire.

 

[JIM]

Our bodies will be transformed so they conform to his body.

Conformed to His(spiritual) body in heaven, not His earthly body that he came out of the tomb with. Do you really think that Jesus is now in the form of a human being in Heaven confined by a physical body?

 

[Josheb]

You’re going on a false premise. You’re suggesting pre-disobedient Adam had different flesh than post-obedient Adam.

Please do not put words in my posts I did not write and please don't speak for me and please DO ONT MISREPRESENT MY POSTS AGAIN!

I covered that statement many, many posts ago. His flesh was a different kind of flesh. Same flesh, but changed by his act of disobedience. At Genesis 1:31 and prior to Genesis 3:6-7 Adam's flesh was good and sinless. After Genesis 3:-67 his flesh was no longer good and it was sinful. Repeating the same incorrect belief does not change the facts of scripture. Neither does ignoring what was previously posted or pretending as if the facts weren't already post and the problem already corrected.

However, Paul tells us Adam was the natural man made from dust.

Yes, Adam was a natural man from the dust but prior to Genesis 3:6-7 Adam was a good and sinless natural man made from the dust. After Genesis 3:6-7 he was a bad and sinful natural man made from dust.

That man cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He must be changed. And that comes by putting on a new nature, a divine nature. The divine nature is the immortal nature which means it isn’t subject to sin or death.

None of which is in dispute.


And the problems that need to be corrected are being avoided. Adam was once good and sinless, even in his flesh. Adam became bad and sinful when he disobeyed God, and as a consequence flesh became sinful, not sinless. ALL the rest of scripture is written about sinful flesh, not sinless flesh.

 

[makesends]

??? No good lived in Christ flesh???? How could no good live in God?

I hope you don't mean to disagree with me there. The passage does not say one way or the other about Christ's flesh; of course we can go to other passages to make the point. But I think you mean to enforce my point, that Romans 7:18 by the Greek for "flesh" is referring to the sinful nature.

But even if it is referring to the material of the human body, it was not, rather obviously, referring to Christ's body, even from the moment of his conception. It's kind of an interesting study that concludes that the sin nature is genetically passed down through the male of the species, which notion precludes the idea that Christ was born with a sin nature, since he was born of the Holy Spirit and not of Mary's husband Joseph.

 

[makesends]

Conformed to His(spiritual) body in heaven, not His earthly body that he came out of the tomb with. Do you really think that Jesus is now in the form of a human being in Heaven confined by a physical body?

Do you even have any idea what you are talking about? None of us know what 'spiritual form' is/ will be, compared to '"physical" in heaven'. You are drawing lines in the dark. Do you have some imagination that structures his Body in Heaven, comprised of his own human members—us?

 

[JIM]

He could appear and disappear, walk through walls, and eat solid food in his resurrected body of flesh and bone. That is the body they saw ascend.

Yes, He could perform the miraculous after He was raised just as He could before He was raised. He was raised in His own body of flesh and bone, which as you have agreed cannot enter heaven.

I hope you will not be disappointed to discover you have a body in heaven.

Actually I will be very, very pleased when I get to heaven, no matter the form I end up with.

Angels have bodies. At the transfiguration the disciples saw Moses and Elijah in physical form. Throughout John's vision he sees a multitude of people multiple times.

We see what ever God wants us to see in such circumstances. I see bodies in my visions, my dreams, at night, but they are not physical either.

When the kingdom comes to earth in the new city of peace it is not filled with disembodied non-bodies.

No, it will be filled with spiritual bodies. I have no idea what those are and neither do you. But I am curious, what you think those glorifed, transformed fleshly bodies will be and what they will be for. Will we then be back to having to walk everywhere we go? Will we have to grow the food we eat? Will we have digestive systems? Will everything be completely consumed? There likely will be many millions, perhaps billions who eventually arrive in heaven. Will we each have one of those rooms Jesus spoke of? There are so many unanswered questions if you seriously believe there will be a physical existence in heaven.

More importantly, our relative disappointment has nothing to do with whether or not sin spread to all men. That's an off-topic comment that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The relevant facts are the flesh is sinful and it is sinful because sin entered the world by one man's disobedience. Through that one man's one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men and through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners. It's in the flesh, not just a spiritual-only condition.

And again, the relevant facts are that the flesh is not sinful until one has committed a sin, just like Adam.

 

[Arial]

Yes, we know desire to sin is sinful. And Adam found out real quick when his nakedness was exposed.

You just repeated what has been said in other posts but did not actually address what my post said.

But listen, this thread has gone on long enough with nothing but repetition by you and @JIM never really getting to the core of the issue. Both contain views that are not a part of traditional Christianity, and just repeating them does nothing to resolve or solve the issues. Not to mention, it has gone way off topic to pure opinion and speculation stated as fact. So I am locking the thread to give it a rest for a few days.

 

[makesends]

To suggest that sinful flesh is something other than sinful nature is not true. The sinful flesh is the nature(physis) of man.
It is the nature of all natural man, beginning at the creation of Adam to today.

So what's your problem? The only difference between that and what I am saying is that you, contrary to scripture, seem to think that Christ's nature was also sinful.

This is so simple to understand if one just allows the scripture to speak.

Adam and Eve sinned because they were tempted by their own natural desires. They put God’s word aside and listened to the fleshly wants. It’s that simple.

Agreed. So does that mean that the natural desires are sinful? NO. They listened to the fleshly wants IN CONTRAST to the command.

See where Paul refers to what some translations call, the mind of the flesh, vs the mind of the Spirit. THAT mind of the flesh is dead to the things of the Spirit. Are you going to say that that description fit Christ?

And Jesus was tempted in the same way because he was of the natural flesh also.
But Jesus adhered to God’s word rather than anything his flesh might persuade him to do. Or anything anyone else would try to persuade him to do.

If he was not in this condition, he could not be said to overcome the world, and exhort his disciples to do the same.

There is no overcoming the world unless we be tempted by the things of the world. The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

To say Jesus was not like us, is to rob him of his glory in overcoming the world.

Hardly. You can't put your notions onto what the Scriptures say.

Your whole structure negates the notion of the sin nature, equating the results of it with the innocence of Adam and Eve. Do you not remember that it says that in Adam all died? Yet you want to say that it was not because of what Adam did, but because of default human desires for self-interest, like any animal.

 

[Arial]

This thread has been temporarily locked to give everyone a chance to cool down and hopefully move along to other conversations. It will be unlocked again in a couple of days.

 

[Tambora]

Where is the verse that supports your speculation?

Remember...Eve as well as Adam...were created very good.

Genesis 1 ESV
(31) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything that God had created would include Adam, Eve, and the serpent being.

 

[LeviR]

Genesis 1 ESV
(31) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything that God had created would include Adam, Eve, and the serpent being.

Obviously, being “very good” does not exclude the ability to sin. So I have no idea, and neither do they, what they speak of.
Adam’s ability to sin was of his created nature.

 

[Tambora]

Obviously, being “very good” does not exclude the ability to sin.

It would be futile to argue against that since we have the testimony of scripture saying that God's "very good" creation did sin.

So I have no idea, and neither do they, what they speak of.

I think it would be best if both sides of this issue pay attention to the thought process of both sides, because we all want to know the truth.

Adam’s ability to sin was of his created nature.

I agree and do not see a problem with it.

 

[LeviR]

It would be futile to argue against that since we have the testimony of scripture saying that God's "very good" creation did sin.



I think it would be best if both sides of this issue pay attention to the thought process of both sides, because we all want to know the truth.



I agree and do not see a problem with it.

It’s not necessary to add ideas such as “original sin” and “immaculate conception” into scripture.
The Scripture speaks for itself.
The scripture tells us how man sins.
I don’t need the RCC to tell me something different.

 

[CrowCross]

Genesis 1 ESV
(31) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything that God had created would include Adam, Eve, and the serpent being.

OK? What are you trying to say?