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Through one man, sin entered the world.

James 1:13-15 explains that we are tempted by being drawn away and enticed by our own desire. The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.
Who is the "we" in James 1:13-15?

Is it referring to good and sinless people, or not good and sinful people?
 
James 1:13-15 explains that we are tempted by being drawn away and enticed by our own desire. The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.
Therefore, Jesus’ flesh had the same desires as the rest of mankind. Otherwise he could not be tempted as we are.
To say this didn’t apply to Adam is very odd. He would be the only man ever to have flesh that was not tempted as all them rest, including Jesus.
So what is the point of denying Adam was tempted like the rest of us?
It is said that Eve DESIRED the fruit because it would make her wise.
Jesus was presented with worldly desires. He lived in the midst of them. But those desires were not in him, as they are in us who were born in Adam. And they weren't in Adam either, until he (Adam) put them there. Adam responded to the temptation very differently than Jesus did. Adam's response corrupted all mankind with sin. Jesus' response secures the rescue from Adam's sin and their own sins, for all who put their trust in Him.

As long as you continue to believe that Jesus is not both God and man, you will never find the truth of this.
 
Jesus was presented with worldly desires. He lived in the midst of them. But those desires were not in him, as they are in us who were born in Adam. And they weren't in Adam either, until he (Adam) put them there. Adam responded to the temptation very differently than Jesus did. Adam's response corrupted all mankind with sin. Jesus' response secures the rescue from Adam's sin and their own sins, for all who put their trust in Him.

As long as you continue to believe that Jesus is not both God and man, you will never find the truth of this.
Ok, so Jesus wasn’t tempted in all points as we are. Got ya.
 
Nobody said this. Certainly not Arial.
If man is tempted by his own desires, and Jesus was tempted in all as we are, thenJesus’ flesh had the same desires as our flesh.
This is why he can empathize with our weakness.
To say he did not have flesh like ours which is where temptation for us comes, is to deny these scriptures.
 
Nobody said this. Certainly not Arial.
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.” Gal 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23[g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 8:3 - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Heb 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The scripture can not be denied.
 
.1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Logically speaking, if good, unashamed, sinless, uncorrupted and/or unadulterated flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, then what do you think is possible with no-good, ashamed, sinful, corrupt and adulterated flesh?
That says the kingdom is not a kingdom of flesh and blood, whether that flesh and blood is either "good" or "bad". It says the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, a kingdom of spirits, from the Spirit King of spirits on down.

I suspect that you are hoping for some sort of "physical" hereafter, a revived Garden of Eden. I seriously believe that just ain't gonna happen.
 
Ok, so Jesus wasn’t tempted in all points as we are. Got ya.
Are you familiar with the doctrine of Impeccability?

Impeccability: Could Jesus, because He was tempted, have possibly sinned? Theologians have disagreed on this question, but the answer must be "no." There are two reasons why Jesus could not sin..... [First] The human will cannot be contrary to the divine will in Christ, but only subject to it. Second, because of the unity of the person, Christ could not sin without implicating God. Christ's human nature may be "peccable" (able to sin); but since in His constitution He is the God-man, He is therefore an impeccable person.[/i] (from Ligonier)​

Furthermore, if Jesus could sin then he would not be perfect in all ways. His potential for not being the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice would exist and if that possibility was ever acted upon then he'd instantly forfeit his perfect, blemish-free ontology and we'd have no Savior.

What the author of Hebrews is telling his readers is that Jesus experienced all the thoughts, emotions, and choices that a healthy, sinless human would experience. This is important because the moment an appeal to James 1:13-14 is made we must ask ourselves what desire, specifically, would Jesus have had that might have enticed him and dragged him away to sin? We know sinful man has a variety of desires that entice him, but what desire of Jesus does scripture ever report Jesus has that might entice him to sin? Jesus has no untoward desires. If he ever had a single bad, evil, and/or ungodly desire then that would instantly disqualify him from being Savior.

The word "tempted," (Gk. = peraizo) can be understood in two ways. It can mean the internal experience of conflict within us testing our own internal values but the ordinary, normal meaning of the word is external. It means to test or try, or to be exposed to testing or trial. Think of it like bait. If you've ever been fishing, then you know dangling a piece of bait may not persuade a fish to bit at all. A fish could like at a floating bottle cap all day and think, "Meh," and swim away. Conversely, a starving fish might bite the bottle cap (I know because I had a trout in Colorado do exactly that). Chicken livers will catch catfish but they're not much use to a bluegill. I could test bluegill all day long with liver and catch nothing. The bluegill is exposed to the liver, he is tested or tried by the exposure to the liver, but he does not desire the liver so the exposure, the testing, the trying, the baiting of the liver has no power over him because the desire is lacking. The moment we say Jesus has a desire like that we have denied his ability to save.


There's no partial view on this because the Hebrews text says he was tempted. tested in ALL ways common to humanity. The word "all" means all. That means Jesus truly, genuinely, sincerely gave consideration to raping little boys, eating their brains while the boys were still alive, and then murdering them in the process as he gave in to his desires. Either Jesus experienced all the desires, or he did not. He either experienced everything Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy experienced, or he didn't. It cannot be said Jesus experienced only the ordinary desires and not the really bad ones. Jesus made it very clear that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If Jesus has ALL the temptations known to sinful man then he lusted, he lusted for women who were not his wife, and he lusted for little boys and all the rests of the lusts sinful humans have. It's all or nothing.

Lastly, Jesus is the logos of God who is God, the word of God made flesh in whom there is no sin. Jesus knows this about himself. He knows he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. He knows he laid all that aside to take on the form of a bondservant. He knows before Abraham I Am. In other words, Jesus' knowledge of himself is much, much, much different than any human who has ever lived. That is the context in which every single tempting episode occurs. When he is tested by the devil Jesus knows he is the anointed one of God. He knows Moses was on Sanai for forty days without bread, so he knows it can be done. He knows his death is coming on Calvary, not in the wilderness due to starvation. He's not actually feeling enticed to make rocks turn into bread. Likewise, when the devil selectively uses scripture to appeal to the neat experience of having angels violate the rules of gravity and carry Jesus safely to the ground (who wouldn't want that experience?) Jesus knows the entirety of God's word because he is the logos of God. He knows Satan is lying. Likewise, Jesus knows everything has not been given to Satan. Jesus knows the heavens are God's throne and the earth is His footstool. Jesus knows it is his name that is above all names. Jesus knows Satan is a liar and Jesus came to undue the devil's works. Jesus knows the devil is a created creature who will one day bow before Jesus and confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God. In other words, Jesus' experience in the wilderness was not identical to what Moses, David, Peter, Paul, Herod, Pilate or you and I would experience.





So, James 1:13-14 does not apply to Jesus in the same way it applies to sinful people. His desires are not the desires of sinful people. His desires are holy and righteous. He was exposed to all the conditions known to humanity, but he was without sin and that means his personal experience of all that exposure was different.
 
Are you familiar with the doctrine of Impeccability?

Impeccability: Could Jesus, because He was tempted, have possibly sinned? Theologians have disagreed on this question, but the answer must be "no." There are two reasons why Jesus could not sin..... [First] The human will cannot be contrary to the divine will in Christ, but only subject to it. Second, because of the unity of the person, Christ could not sin without implicating God. Christ's human nature may be "peccable" (able to sin); but since in His constitution He is the God-man, He is therefore an impeccable person.[/i] (from Ligonier)​

Furthermore, if Jesus could sin then he would not be perfect in all ways. His potential for not being the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice would exist and if that possibility was ever acted upon then he'd instantly forfeit his perfect, blemish-free ontology and we'd have no Savior.

What the author of Hebrews is telling his readers is that Jesus experienced all the thoughts, emotions, and choices that a healthy, sinless human would experience. This is important because the moment an appeal to James 1:13-14 is made we must ask ourselves what desire, specifically, would Jesus have had that might have enticed him and dragged him away to sin? We know sinful man has a variety of desires that entice him, but what desire of Jesus does scripture ever report Jesus has that might entice him to sin? Jesus has no untoward desires. If he ever had a single bad, evil, and/or ungodly desire then that would instantly disqualify him from being Savior.

The word "tempted," (Gk. = peraizo) can be understood in two ways. It can mean the internal experience of conflict within us testing our own internal values but the ordinary, normal meaning of the word is external. It means to test or try, or to be exposed to testing or trial. Think of it like bait. If you've ever been fishing, then you know dangling a piece of bait may not persuade a fish to bit at all. A fish could like at a floating bottle cap all day and think, "Meh," and swim away. Conversely, a starving fish might bite the bottle cap (I know because I had a trout in Colorado do exactly that). Chicken livers will catch catfish but they're not much use to a bluegill. I could test bluegill all day long with liver and catch nothing. The bluegill is exposed to the liver, he is tested or tried by the exposure to the liver, but he does not desire the liver so the exposure, the testing, the trying, the baiting of the liver has no power over him because the desire is lacking. The moment we say Jesus has a desire like that we have denied his ability to save.


There's no partial view on this because the Hebrews text says he was tempted. tested in ALL ways common to humanity. The word "all" means all. That means Jesus truly, genuinely, sincerely gave consideration to raping little boys, eating their brains while the boys were still alive, and then murdering them in the process as he gave in to his desires. Either Jesus experienced all the desires, or he did not. He either experienced everything Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy experienced, or he didn't. It cannot be said Jesus experienced only the ordinary desires and not the really bad ones. Jesus made it very clear that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If Jesus has ALL the temptations known to sinful man then he lusted, he lusted for women who were not his wife, and he lusted for little boys and all the rests of the lusts sinful humans have. It's all or nothing.

Lastly, Jesus is the logos of God who is God, the word of God made flesh in whom there is no sin. Jesus knows this about himself. He knows he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. He knows he laid all that aside to take on the form of a bondservant. He knows before Abraham I Am. In other words, Jesus' knowledge of himself is much, much, much different than any human who has ever lived. That is the context in which every single tempting episode occurs. When he is tested by the devil Jesus knows he is the anointed one of God. He knows Moses was on Sanai for forty days without bread, so he knows it can be done. He knows his death is coming on Calvary, not in the wilderness due to starvation. He's not actually feeling enticed to make rocks turn into bread. Likewise, when the devil selectively uses scripture to appeal to the neat experience of having angels violate the rules of gravity and carry Jesus safely to the ground (who wouldn't want that experience?) Jesus knows the entirety of God's word because he is the logos of God. He knows Satan is lying. Likewise, Jesus knows everything has not been given to Satan. Jesus knows the heavens are God's throne and the earth is His footstool. Jesus knows it is his name that is above all names. Jesus knows Satan is a liar and Jesus came to undue the devil's works. Jesus knows the devil is a created creature who will one day bow before Jesus and confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God. In other words, Jesus' experience in the wilderness was not identical to what Moses, David, Peter, Paul, Herod, Pilate or you and I would experience.





So, James 1:13-14 does not apply to Jesus in the same way it applies to sinful people. His desires are not the desires of sinful people. His desires are holy and righteous. He was exposed to all the conditions known to humanity, but he was without sin and that means his personal experience of all that exposure was different.
Jesus hungered, thirst, slept, wept, feared God, sweat, grew in wisdom and stature, learned obedience in what he suffered, was tempted, and willed not to have his flesh be killed.

All these things pertain to the flesh.
I posted some scripture #246 above to prove my point. And there are many more. They can’t be denied (or proved false) no matter how hard you try.
 
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That says the kingdom is not a kingdom of flesh and blood, whether that flesh and blood is either "good" or "bad".
That is a difference without a distinction. It's also wrong. When Jesus resurrected he had flesh. He appeared to the disciples after he was raised from the grave and had them feel his wounds and he explicitly noted he had flesh and bone. He ascended into heaven with a body of flesh and bone. It was NOT a body of sinful flesh and blood, but it was a body of flesh. So the idea the kingdom is not a kingdom of flesh and blood does not preclude the fact we still have bodies, and we still have bodies of flesh when we enter God's kingdom. The 1 Corinthians 15 narrative makes it very clear there is a one-to-one ration between the body buried and the body raised. The difference between the two is that the body raised is a spiritual body that is incorruptible and immortal.

The fact that it is a spiritual body does not mean it does not have flesh. Jesus' resurrected body has flesh.

So, once again, the rest of scripture was not used and, therefore, a whole understanding of the flesh and the kingdom is lacking.
It says the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, a kingdom of spirits, from the Spirit King of spirits on down.
That does not preclude all flesh from inclusion. It simply means the flesh has to be transformed into a state or condition wherein it can enter the kingdom..... like Jesus did when he resurrected and ascended.

Adam was good and sinless prior to Genesis 3:6-7. He was good and sinless BUT he was also corruptible and mortal. He was going to physically die one way or another. Only the tree of life could prevent that from happening. Jesus, who is the tree of life, is the only way to the Father so if the good and sinless, corruptible and mortal Adam and Eve were ever going to reach the Father and God was ever going to finish His purpose creating those two creatures, then they were going to die, resurrect, be transformed and obtain bodies of flesh and bone that had been transformed from corruptible and mortal bodies into incorruptible and immortal bodies.

Adam screwing up and disobeying God made Adam sinful, and sinful in every aspect of his body. His body of flesh and blood was now sinful and incapable of entering the kingdom for TWO reasons, one created by God and the other created by Adam. God made Adam good, sinless, corruptible, mortal, and flesh and blood. Adam made Adam corrupt, unrighteous, faithless, and dead in transgression. Blessedly, God in His infinite wisdom had already provided for that event. Adam's disobedience did not adversely affect God's plan at all. God remained sovereign because God, and God alone, is always and everywhere inherently sovereign, even in the presence of sin. Adam and Eve were still going to die, only after Genesis 3:6-7 they would die dead, they'd die physically already dead in sin. If through their belief in God's resurrected Son, they were saved from sin and wrath then they would die dead in sin and dead to sin dead in Christ. That's a lot of death. They'd be raised from the grave and their bodies of flesh and blood transformed into bodies of flesh and bone.

Flash and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Sinful flesh and blood definitely cannot enter. Transformed flesh and bone can enter.

So, once again, the rest of scripture tells us it does say what I posted and not what you've posted.
I suspect that you are hoping for some sort of "physical" hereafter, a revived Garden of Eden. I seriously believe that just ain't gonna happen.
My personal hopes have nothing to do with this discussion so I will ask you to refrain from speculations about my hopes, and I will ask you to stick to the subject we're supposed to be discussing: whether or not sin spread to all men.


Everything Paul wrote about sin in Romans 5 is predicated on one man and his disobedience. The last half of verse 5 is not the measure of all scripture and it is not the measure of all that scripture says about sin and the effects of Adam's disobedience on creation.
 
Jesus hungered, thirst, slept, wept, feared God, sweat, grew in wisdom and stature, learned obedience in what he suffered, was tempted, and willed not to have his flesh be killed.
None of which is in dispute and none of which is emotion or desire. Most of that are what we call somatic sensations, aspects of the physical body. Hunger is not an emotion.
All these things pertain to the flesh.
Yes, but they have nothing to do with James 1
 
None of which is in dispute and none of which is emotion or desire. Most of that are what we call somatic sensations, aspects of the physical body. Hunger is not an emotion.

Yes, but they have nothing to do with James 1
I post a lot of scripture to prove my point. Please feel welcome to prove those scriptures wrong. See post #246 for starters.
 
But you know that nothing died? How do you know that if you weren't there? The Bible certainly doesn't say anything about death in Eden except that Adam became dead in his sin of disobedience.
I tend to agree with this. From childhood til today, I have always thought that the death promised to Adam upon eating of that tree, was spiritual, and that as a result, all of mankind, except Jesus Christ, is "born dead" concerning spiritual things. But I have come to see that there is a real relationship, though I am at a loss to describe it, between that spiritual death and the constant dying of this flesh. There even seems to be a particular significance concerning the 3-day limit before decomposition finally sets in!

@Mr GLee would probably love to chime in here. If he does, give him a listen. I'm still trying to understand what he is getting at.
 
I post a lot of scripture to prove my point. Please feel welcome to prove those scriptures wrong. See post #246 for starters.
That's pretty doggone presumptuous. Really??? If someone disagrees with you they are disagreeing with the scriptures you use? I hope you're just being a bit over the top in your indignation. Get real —You are as capable as anyone else, to use scripture wrong.
 
That's pretty doggone presumptuous. Really??? If someone disagrees with you they are disagreeing with the scriptures you use? I hope you're just being a bit over the top in your indignation. Get real —You are as capable as anyone else, to use scripture wrong.
The resurrection of Jesus proves he had not sinned, despite the fact that he had the same flesh in which no good thing dwells. Rom 7:18
 
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12
 
The resurrection of Jesus proves he had not sinned, despite the fact that he had the same flesh in which no good thing dwells. Rom 7:18
I saw nothing @Josheb said that disagrees with that, except your presumption that assumes his flesh was inherently sinful.

By the way, the "flesh" referred to in Rom 7:18 is, as some translations render it, the "sinful nature", rather than a direct reference to the material wrapped around our bones.
 
Speaking of his days in the mortal flesh:

Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Being in the same mortal flesh, and tempted like us, yet he did not sin.

Speaking of his days after resurrection to die no more:

Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 7:26 - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
I saw nothing @Josheb said that disagrees with that, except your presumption that assumes his flesh was inherently sinful.

By the way, the "flesh" referred to in Rom 7:18 is, as some translations render it, the "sinful nature", rather than a direct reference to the material wrapped around our bones.

translations have no right to change the words. They do so at their own peril.

The words are “that is in my flesh, dweleth no good thing”
check the Greek.
 
Speaking of his days in the mortal flesh:

Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Being in the same mortal flesh, and tempted like us, yet he did not sin.

Speaking of his days after resurrection to die no more:

Unchecked Copy Box
Heb 7:26 - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;


translations have no right to change the words. They do so at their own peril.

The words are “that is in my flesh, dweleth no good thing”
check the Greek.
I agree. But translation is not as simple a job as to produce mere literal meaning. Notice that I had said, "AS some translations render it", by which I was indicating the use Paul intends of the word, "flesh". It is rather obvious, contextually, (though he does not, as far as I know, disallow that it is related to the actual material of our bodies), that he is speaking of one's sinful nature.
 
I saw nothing @Josheb said that disagrees with that, except your presumption that assumes his flesh was inherently sinful.

By the way, the "flesh" referred to in Rom 7:18 is, as some translations render it, the "sinful nature", rather than a direct reference to the material wrapped around our bones.
??? No good lived in Christ flesh???? How could no good live in God?
 
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