• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem

Calvin thought it was the RCC and it is understandable why he would think that at the time. It is still a good example but I don't know that I would call it The Anti-Christ. It certainly is the spirit of antiChrist. The Catholic Church takes the place of Christ and of the Holy Spirit in applying salvation. So I would say it is the invasion of false prophets and false teachers into the church. They serve the beast, whether they know it or not.
OK. Allow me to press a little further to see if I understand your stance.

In your previous post you said you believed it to be the body of Christ that would be the temple of God, and you quoted scripture to support that thought.
And I agree with that thought that the body of Christ is the temple of God.
But I'm not so sure that is the same temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess 2 that the image of beast is set up in to be worshipped.

So I need to press you for clarification, if you don't mind because it seems as if you are saying the temple of God the image of the beast is set up in to receive worship is the body of Christ and that the RCC is part of the body of Christ that will end up worshipping the beast.
But that would mean that members of the body of Christ will worship the beast.

So ....
Do you believe the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess 2 (in which the beast is set up in to receive worship) is the temple that is the body of Christ?
Do you believe the RCC is included in the body of Christ?

Will there be a The antiChrist as an individual. I dunno.
For this argument it doesn't matter.
I'm just trying to figure out if you think the temple of God in 2 Thess 2 is the same temple as the body of Christ.
 
So, Jesus is the temple where the image of the beast will be set up and be worshipped?
A "physical third temple" is a misinterpretation of a "Millennial" prophecy. The root of Dispensational error. Israel rejected "the Millenium", they rejected the "third temple". Jesus BECAME the Third Temple, and as His Body.. WE are the Third Temple, the final Temple, the ONLY Temple. I don't believe God will allow a physical 'rebuild", the relevant scriptures seem to indicate that will Never happen.
 
I don't believe God will allow a physical 'rebuild"
But the bible speaks of a physical temple....

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Perhaps a little commentary here from you would help us understand this temple is every christian.
 
In your previous post you said you believed it to be the body of Christ that would be the temple of God, and you quoted scripture to support that thought.
And I agree with that thought that the body of Christ is the temple of God.
But I'm not so sure that is the same temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess 2 that the image of beast is set up in to be worshipped.
It is possible that it isn't. But it is the only temple of God mentioned in the epistles that is not referring to the temple that still existed until 70 a.d. It never mentions that a third temple will be rebuilt. And certainly there is no need of one.

John 2:19-23 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

"Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."


In order for 2 Thess to be read as a third physical temple being built, an entire eschatological presupposition must be applied to it. It may be a difficult passage to find God's meaning in, and I admit it is, but that does not warrant reading into it something that is antithetical to what is clear. Context helps, particularly the reason why Paul is addressing the issues he is and in the way he is. That can be found by searching search engines or books on the subject, and most convenient, chapter prefaces in a good study Bible that state the date and occasion of the writing.
So ....
Do you believe the temple of God mentioned in 2 Thess 2 (in which the beast is set up in to receive worship) is the temple that is the body of Christ?
Do you believe the RCC is included in the body of Christ?
As a people, individuals, I believe there are members of the body of Christ within the Catholic denomination. The religion itself with its teachings, is antithetical to Christ's church. It sets the boundaries of Christ's church rather that the first century apostles. It claims the same authority they have. It sets itself as the interpreter of Scripture rather than Scripture itself. It acknowledges the Trinity, the necessity of Christ's death and grace, but it claims to be the only dispenser of that grace. One can only get to Jesus through their traditions and priests. It has human mediators between God and man. It is idolatrous.

If the visible church, being representative of gathering as a community of God's people to worship and learn---as was the temple at Jerusalem for the Jews---then the man of lawlessness as a spirit of anti-Christ, has been in her midst even in the NT era, and ever since. It comes to deceive. It is Satan's war against the church. In these visible congregations we have both wheat and tares. This could be the meaning of the falling away, or apostasy. They would be the tares. It is deception that is being addressed by "anti-Christs". But no one can take anyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit out of Christ.

It may be that Paul had in mind, without knowing that specifically, what would later become the RCC, which set itself up, and still does, as the one true Church of Christ. They backpedaled their language beginning in the 60's but they have never changed the tenets themselves. It certainly has spread to all the world and at times set out do kill and imprison all opposition. All that aside, if the "man of lawlessness" is an individual, setting himself in the temple of God (the church if that is what is meant) means just prior to Christ's return, imo would possibly mean a government leader who takes authority over all religion---a world religious leader--- who persecutes Christians and Christian institutions, not even allowing their existence.

However---- bottom line---what Paul does not say is when in history this will happen or how soon after it happens or to what extent or way, the apostasy will precede Christ's second coming. He merely says it will occur before his return. And he is specifically dealing with a teaching that had confused the church in Thess. that claimed Jesus had already returned. ANd the things he mentioned had not yet occurred which showed the teaching was false.
 
OK...that's speculation. An opinion.
Well, can you do anything to definitively disprove it? A bit of commentary would be helpful. I stated it as being my opinion. But it is not Idle speculation because I am looking at historic facts---both what happened in the NT era and what has happened ever since. And what the Bible itself says of anti-Christs and what they do and who it is that motivates them.
 
Well, can you do anything to definitively disprove it? A bit of commentary would be helpful. I stated it as being my opinion. But it is not Idle speculation because I am looking at historic facts---both what happened in the NT era and what has happened ever since. And what the Bible itself says of anti-Christs and what they do and who it is that motivates them.
what historical facts? I've asked you in the past to explain Rev 8 in historical facts.
 
But the bible speaks of a physical temple....

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Perhaps a little commentary here from you would help us understand this temple is every christian.
Well, I won't deny 2 Thess, and by association Dan 9 are difficult passages, both for any iteration of preterism or futurism, but like any exegesis, you have to juxtapose the 'less known' with the 'absolutely known' in scripture. What is absolutely known is that Jesus is the Third Temple, and we know 'Tear down this Temple" (that He physically stood in) "and in 3 days I will rebuild it" (His Resurrection) is rock solid. Then you go from there and parse other things not by what IS questionable, but as to not contradict what is NOT questionable. 2 Thess can be a mire, but one thing I notice is in 2 Thess 2:3 much is made of "apostacy", but the word essentially means "revolt".. and what do ya know, preceding 70 AD was "The" revolt of all revolts. And when you move through the relevant passages, you find too much alignment with 70AD to be mere coincidence. 2 Thess 2 clearly aligns with Dan 9 and there are several events that are eerily symmetrical with the Siege, many cite Titus entering the Holy of Holies, but even before that Simon bar Giora had gone in and sacked it, eating the showbread and melting down sacred vessels (into what?), slaughtering priests.. causing the "oblation to cease". Rev 16:19 cites "And the great city was split into three parts..", and the 3 leaders of the Jewish revolts had split the city into 3 sections, and were infighting.. and I mean it goes on and on. Bottom line is for the futurist, ALL of the relevant scriptures are total 'mystery', left guessing that every news headline for 2K years is eschatological prophey being fulfilled.. just doesn't fly, whereas, with at the very least a partial preterist view causes a Huge amount of the relevant scripture to literally harmonize with both itself and history. So, that is why my position is a rejection of both full preterism and full futurism, because to my eye the reality seems to be in a more moderate position that allows for elements of the 2 views without one fully precluding the other.
 
A "physical third temple" is a misinterpretation of a "Millennial" prophecy. The root of Dispensational error. Israel rejected "the Millenium", they rejected the "third temple". Jesus BECAME the Third Temple, and as His Body.. WE are the Third Temple, the final Temple, the ONLY Temple. I don't believe God will allow a physical 'rebuild", the relevant scriptures seem to indicate that will Never happen.
So what is the temple of God in this verse?

2 Thessalonians 2
(4) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
 
So what is the temple of God in this verse?

2 Thessalonians 2
(4) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
I believe THAT temple is the *2nd Temple.
 
what historical facts? I've asked you in the past to explain Rev 8 in historical facts.
For this to make any sense it will be necessary for me to quote the post it is responding to.
Well, can you do anything to definitively disprove it? A bit of commentary would be helpful. I stated it as being my opinion. But it is not Idle speculation because I am looking at historic facts---both what happened in the NT era and what has happened ever since. And what the Bible itself says of anti-Christs and what they do and who it is that motivates them.
It actually has nothing to do with Rev 8---that is moving the goal posts. The topic is 2 Thess 2 and your claim that it is teaching a third temple being built, where I said this to @Tambora. This is what you said was speculation and I responded with the above.
Calvin thought it was the RCC and it is understandable why he would think that at the time. It is still a good example but I don't know that I would call it The Anti-Christ. It certainly is the spirit of antiChrist. The Catholic Church takes the place of Christ and of the Holy Spirit in applying salvation. So I would say it is the invasion of false prophets and false teachers into the church. They serve the beast, whether they know it or not. Will there be a The antiChrist as an individual. I dunno.
So when I say, "It is not as idle speculation because I am looking at historic facts---both what happened in the NT era and what has happened ever since---(false teachers and false prophets standing in Christian pulpits, blasting away of social media and You Tube etc---presenting new and strange gospels) and what the Bible has to say about anti-Christs," that is how I find the temple, if it is the corporate body of Christ, being the temple of 2 Thess 2. That is what my conclusions, right or wrong, are based on. Not Idle speculation.

So I am at a loss why you are asking me "what historical facts?" And even more puzzled what it has to do with Rev 8.
 
I believe THAT temple is the *2nd Temple.
It very well could be, because that does happen before Christ returns, but it had not happened when Paul wrote the Thess letter.
 
It very well could be, because that does happen before Christ returns, but it had not happened when Paul wrote the Thess letter.
Well, there's 2 scholar opinions I think one claiming 80-115 AD (and as inauthentic), and the other 51-52 AD (and as authentic)... one clearly would make more sense.
 
It very well could be, because that does happen before Christ returns, but it had not happened when Paul wrote the Thess letter.
Oh, I see your point.. that "requires 70 AD to be the Second Coming." And yeah, that's a hard pill for me to swallow also, as it's pretty much full preterism.. but yeah, Idk.. it's compelling.
 
Oh, I see your point.. that "requires 70 AD to be the Second Coming." And yeah, that's a hard pill for me to swallow also, as it's pretty much full preterism.. but yeah, Idk.. it's compelling.
No, it would not require 70a.d. to be the second coming---not by what I said/meant. Dispensationalists are taking that passage in 2 Thes to verify a rebuilt temple, which to them is a sign that the rapture is at hand, followed by seven years of tribulation. Paul could have been referring to the temple that was rebuilt when the exiles returned from Babylon (Ezra) and was still standing in Paul's day. If that is the case, then Titus fits both the "abomination of desolation" and "the man of lawlessness.

Paul just tells the Thess. Christians that Jesus had not already returned (the false teaching he was dealing with) because that had not happened yet. He did not say that it was a last days event or that it would occur before a rapture and seven year tribulation that would precede Christ's return. That is completely read into the passage. Or that it was immediatly. preceding Christ's return. He only said it would happen before Christ returns and so he had not returned already.

Paul isn't writing about what are the signs of his coming, or when he will come. He is writing about "he has not come yet."

It could also be that 70 a.d. was a partial fulfillment of something in the future, but it does not require a third temple to be rebuilt if the temple is the only temple mentioned in the NT, except when it is referring to the second temple, is Christ and his Church.
 
Last edited:
OK, thanks for the response.
Your quite a peace of work, you ask me something and I proved with scripture that you were wrong and all you can say is a sarcastic response.

How about your right and I was wrong thanks for showing me.

With your attitude you should not be debating because your pride gets in the way it no use conversing with you so I won’t anymore
 
Back
Top