The Trinity

[Fred]

Time to bend over Fred and grab your ankles.... Your about to recieve a Theological Spanking!!!


You can stand up and repent now... Fred
Paul

Spank yourself, because you totally dodged Acts 2:21 and how the "Lord" refers to Jesus as Him being YHWH.

You can try actually dealing with the evidence I presented.

Nice to see that you were able to cite Acts 2:22 in post 59, but when it came to dealing with Acts 2:21 you put on the disappearing act.

 

[Fred]

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Thanks for quoting 1 Corinthians 8:6 because the same "Lord" found there (hint" it refers to Jesus) refers to the same Lord in 1 Corinthians 10:26. Thus, demonstrating Jesus is YHWH (cf. Psalm 24:1)

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/jesus-is-the-lord-yhwh-in-1-corinthians-10-26-psalm-24-1-and-deuteronomy-6-4.603/

 

[ppierac]

Spank yourself, because you totally dodged Acts 2:21 and how the "Lord" refers to Jesus as Him being YHWH.

You can try actually dealing with the evidence I presented.

Nice to see that you were able to cite Acts 2:22 in post 59, but when it came to dealing with Acts 2:21 you put on the disappearing act.

Oh... you were serious.... Sorry but in no way doe Acts 2:21 says what you believe.... If it did then every Trinitarian in history would have used this verse.... Guess what.... "Crickets" Not a single person but you have try to use... Acts 2:21 and how the "Lord" (G2962)refers to Jesus as Him being YHWH.

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): Sir.

Seems in all of biblical history.... only you have made this claim.... I rest my historical case.... !!!!
Not hard to dodge stupid even by accident!!! You really posted this childishness as being serious... I'm embarrassed for you!!!

You can let go of your ankles now...
Paul

 

[Fred]

Not a single person but you have try to use... Acts 2:21 and how the "Lord" (G2962)refers to Jesus as Him being YHWH.

Person #1
Robert Reymond: Peter, in his response to his listeners' query, "Brothers, what shall we do?," urged them to "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" (2:38). It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that he was urging them to avail themselves of the remedy Joel himself had prescribed in his prophecy when he said, "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21). But then this means, in turn, that for Peter Jesus was the Lord of Joel 2:32a (cf. Rom. 10:9-13), which means in turn that Jesus was the Yahweh who spoke through Joel (Jesus: Divine Messiah, page 230).


Person #2 and Person #3
David Guzik quoting from F. F. Bruce:
ii. When Peter exhorted them whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Acts 2:21), there is little doubt who the Lord is that he spoke of:Jesus.

iii. “That the early Christians meant to give Jesus the title Lord in this highest sense of all is indicated by their not hesitating on occasion to apply to him passages of Old Testament scripture referring to Yahweh.” (Bruce) (5. (34-36) Quoting Psalm 110, Peter explains the Divine Messiah).

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Acts Chapter 2

David Guzik commentary on Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit is poured out on the church, and Peter gives his sermon on the day of Pentecost.

enduringword.com

Person #4
The Expositor's Greek Testament: Acts 2:21. In Joel κύριος is undoubtedly used of the Lord Jehovah, and the word is here transferred to Christ. In its bearing on our Lord's Divinity this fact is of primary importance, for it is not merely that the early Christians addressed their Ascended Lord so many times by the same name which is used of Jehovah in the LXX—although it is certainly remarkable that in 1 Thess. the name is applied to Christ more than twenty times—but that they did not hesitate to refer to Him the attributes and the prophecies which the great prophets of the Jewish nation had associated with the name of Jehovah...
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/egt/view.cgi?bk=43&ch=2


Person #5
A Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament: in the N.T. ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου imports invoking the true God, with a confession that he is Jehovah, i.e. with an acknowledgement of his essential and incommunicable attributes. And in this view the phrase is applied to Christ, Acts 2:21. (Comp. Joel 2:32. Acts 9:13, 14, 21.) Acts 22:16. Rom. 10:13, (comp ver. 9, 11) 1 Cor. 1:2. (epikaleō, page 243)


The boldface and underlined above are mine.

You can let go of your ankles now...
Paul

Some helpful advice:
Before you think about making another such childish and outlandish comment, do a bit more studying and research.
It will save you from a ton of embarrassment.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

I have no idea what you were explaining. I been doing Trinity and Hypostatic Union apologetics for over 20 years. This is what you said:

"My God, my God why have you forsaken (left) me?​

​

When all of our sins was upon Jesus on that cross, God the Father had to leave his presence God can not abide sin because. So, Jesus was all alone on that cross bearing our sins without the God's presence.​

And I demonstrated Scripturally that the Persons in the Trinity is inseparable, and Jesus wasn't alone on the cross. Reread post 23.

You are wrong, the inseparable part is THEIR LIKENESS or ESSENCE. That can never change, they are love, you, peace, hope etc. Jesus does not have the Abundance of the Glory, what about that do you not get?

 

[Fred]

Jesus does not have the Abundance of the Glory,

Yes, He does.

He is worshiped in equality with the Father for possessing the attribute of glory.

Revelation 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Yes, He does.

He is worshiped in equality with the Father for possessing the attribute of glory.

Revelation 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

My goodness, how did mere men look upon and TOUCH Jesus if he had the abundance of the Glory? How could the Holy Spirit live in our hearts if it held the abundance of the Glory? If God the Father lived in your heart it would blow you up !! God can not come into the presence of Sin, which is why all of those who refuse to accept Christ condemn themselves to hell, because all hell really is, is the absence of God's presence.

No man has ever looked upon the Father and lived !! Why? Because God has the Abundance of the Glory. The Glory is however shared IN ESSENCE (Likeness) but not in ABUNDANCE. Thus we have three individual personas who are each unique personhoods. Essence means Love, Joy, Hope, Kindness, Peace etc. etc. etc. They are all the same, thus my Reservoir full of water juxtaposition. But God has the abundance of the Glory the Holy Spirit lives in us, not God the Father. You verse says nothing, I did not say Jesus did not have Glory? I said God has the Abundance which implies the other two have Glory also. Of course they do, we have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helper. Still, the Father has the abundance (THE MOST) of the Glory.

 

[Fred]

My goodness, how did mere men look upon and TOUCH Jesus if he had the abundance of the Glory? How could the Holy Spirit live in our hearts if it held the abundance of the Glory? If God the Father lived in your heart it would blow you up !! God can not come into the presence of Sin, which is why all of those who refuse to accept Christ condemn themselves to hell, because all hell really is, is the absence of God's presence.

No man has ever looked upon the Father and lived !! Why? Because God has the Abundance of the Glory. The Glory is however shared IN ESSENCE (Likeness) but not in ABUNDANCE. Thus we have three individual personas who are each unique personhoods. Essence means Love, Joy, Hope, Kindness, Peace etc. etc. etc. They are all the same, thus my Reservoir full of water juxtaposition. But God has the abundance of the Glory the Holy Spirit lives in us, not God the Father. You verse says nothing, I did not say Jesus did not have Glory? I said God has the Abundance which implies the other two have Glory also. Of course they do, we have God the Father, God the Redeemer and God the Helper. Still, the Father has the abundance (THE MOST) of the Glory.

You ignored Revelation 5:13 because it refutes your heresy.

Try again.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

You ignored Revelation 5:13 because it refutes your heresy.

Try again.

LOL, no it doesn't, we know Jesus sits at the "RIGHT HAND" of God the Father, Jesus is God (EL) the Redeemer, God the Father has the abundance of the Gory, what part of no man has ever seen the Father and lived do you not get?

 

[Fred]

LOL, no it doesn't, we know Jesus sits at the "RIGHT HAND" of God the Father, Jesus is God (EL) the Redeemer, God the Father has the abundance of the Gory, what part of no man has ever seen the Father and lived do you not get?

Great.
You just proved Jesus isn't the Father, but you haven't proved Jesus isn't God.

The Father and Jesus are worshiped in equality.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Great.
You just proved Jesus isn't the Father, but you haven't proved Jesus isn't God.

The Father and Jesus are worshiped in equality.

That you not understanding English it seems, or NOT READING and trying to reply it what you think someone said. Its sad o think people might be that lazy. Not having the abundance of the Glory does not make Jesus being God the Redeemer (AS I STATED !! Get it? see it ? LOOK AGAIN) null & void. You not understand Jesus does not have he Abundance of the Glory s on you. If he did then no man could have looked upon him, touched him, if the holy spirit had the abundance of the Glory he could not live in our hearts, here is the gist, you do not have a clue about the Trinity, but think you do.

 

[Fred]

If he did then no man could have looked upon him, toched him

says you.

if the holy spirit had the abundance of the Glory he could not live in our hearts,

And yet the Father lives in our hearts IN EQUALITY with Jesus (John 14:23).
"I will dwell IN THEM" (2 Corinthians 6:16).

here is the gist, you do not have a clue about the Trinity, but think you do.

Revelation 5:13, which you keep on dodging, refutes your massive heresy. (See Proverbs 13:13a)

 

[Binyawmene]

You are wrong, the inseparable part is THEIR LIKENESS or ESSENCE. That can never change, they are love, you, peace, hope etc. Jesus does not have the Abundance of the Glory, what about that do you not get?

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46

I am certain you know that the verse isn't referring to the idea of inseparability being broken in the Trinity and the inseparability being broken in the Hypostatic Union. After all, the Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economical relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature. And the human nature is undivided and inseparable to the Divine Nature by the Person.

What do you think that verse is saying? You've stated: Jesus was all alone on that cross bearing our sins without the God's presence. Here is a hint. The verse has its standpoint of the Son in respect of or according to the human nature.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Revelation 5:13, which you keep on dodging, refutes your massive heresy. (See Proverbs 13:13a)

Deleted By Mod

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46

I am certain you know that the verse isn't referring to the idea of inseparability being broken in the Trinity and the inseparability being broken in the Hypostatic Union. After all, the Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economical relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature. And the human nature is undivided and inseparable to the Divine Nature by the Person.

What do you think that verse is saying? You've stated: Jesus was all alone on that cross bearing our sins without the God's presence. Here is a hint. The verse has its standpoint of the Son in respect of or according to the human nature.

You will have to read Luke 4 to understand all this, or I can just relate unto you the understanding and you can check it if you doubt it. In Luke 4 Jesus was LED by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness/desert to be tempted by Satan. He then used the word of God to deny Satan's advances in each situation, and thus after he had been tempted 40 days the angels took charge of him and mended him, and he came out of the wilderness IN THE POWER of the Spirit !! Not led by the Spirit, but in the POWER of the Spirit, so why did Jesus not always have the power? Because coming to earth Jesus emptied himself of that Godhead, he came as a lowly man, BUT....a man born without sin, to prove that man never had to sin, like Adam did, then he was led by the hol7 spirit until his time of Ministry was upon him, then vi obedience he was given the Power of the Holy Sprit to use whilst on earth, just as we are, only after his death did Jesus once again take up his full Godhead, by siting at the Righthand of the Father. He came as a meek Lamb, not as a powerful Godhead. He used the Holy Spirit, the holy spirit had to leave Jesus as all of those sins were cast upon him. If you or I return to a life of sin the holy spirit will leave us, God can not abide sin.

 

[Binyawmene]

You will have to read Luke 4 to understand all this, or I can just relate unto you the understanding and you can check it if you doubt it. In Luke 4 Jesus was LED by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness/desert to be tempted by Satan. He then used the word of God to deny Satan's advances in each situation, and thus after he had been tempted 40 days the angels took charge of him and mended him, and he came out of the wilderness IN THE POWER of the Spirit !! Not led by the Spirit, but in the POWER of the Spirit, so why did Jesus not always have the power? Because coming to earth Jesus emptied himself of that Godhead, he came as a lowly man, BUT....a man born without sin, to prove that man never had to sin, like Adam did, then he was led by the hol7 spirit until his time of Ministry was upon him, then vi obedience he was given the Power of the Holy Sprit to use whilst on earth, just as we are, only after his death did Jesus once again take up his full Godhead, by siting at the Righthand of the Father. He came as a meek Lamb, not as a powerful Godhead.

Are you a Functional Kenoticist? The Greek word "kenosis" in the twisted form is a heretical doctrine that teaches the Son has "self-emptied" (divine attributes or being God, etc.) into his incarnation. My opinion kenoticism should be distinguished from biblical understanding of the kenosis. Because in Philippians 2:7, it doesn't say anything about what the son has emptied himself of, and we shouldn't go beyond into speculation from what the Scriptures teaches. You can't suggest that the son has emptied himself of divine attributes since there is no attributes mentioned in the verse. But if you feel there are other Scriptures that demonstrate emptying of attributes, then you are welcome to prove it. And also, you can't say that the Son has emptied himself from the form of God (Divine Nature) since the grammar teaches against it.

1. If the Son emptied himself of the Godhead, then Divine Nature would be incomplete.
2. There would be no co-equal. The Father would be superior and the son inferior.
3. The inseparable functionality would be separated and not unified.

He used the Holy Spirit, the holy spirit had to leave Jesus as all of those sins were cast upon him. If you or I return to a life of sin the holy spirit will leave us, God can not abide sin.

Well, there is a difference between the empowerment of the OT and the indwelling in the NT. But that's not the point. However, I agree that God doesn't abide in sin. That is not what is being questioned though. What I'm questioning is the idea that there a separation between the Son-Person and the Father-Person. When Adam sinned then the whole human race is born into sin and we will all physically die (the separation of soul and body) and spiritually die (the separation of the soul from God). Jesus Christ never died spiritually (Got Scriptures?) because he was never in the state of Total Depravity. Death is the punishment due to sin or "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). It takes a sinless and un-wrathful person and sacrificial blood to appeased God's anger towards sin. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Not that he had any sins of himself, but as our substitute he died in our punishment due to our sins. What logically follow in Scriptures is: (a). Wrath is connected to sin, and sin is established in atonement, and (b). Wrath is connected to blood, and blood is established in atonement. Now, we are saved from that coming wrath when God bring judgement into eternal life or eternal punishment (John 3:36, Romans 2:5, 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

1. Wrath accompany sin.
2. Jesus Christ is sinless and without wrath.
3. He didn't carry his own sins and wrath.
4. He is our substitute.
5. He carried our sins and wrath to the cross.
6. Since he has no sins and wrath of his own. The Father did condemn our sins in his human nature (Romans 8:3) and he didn't condemn Son-Person along with our sins. Even if a Christian revert back to living in sin, he will still never leave you or forsaken you. Once saved, always saved. It's not God who is separated from sinners because of sins, but rather it's the sinners who are separate from God.

 

[CherubRam]

"The Lord" is Yahwah our Father.

First and Last

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what (the Lord / Yahwah) says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, (the Lord / Yahwah) Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Isaiah 48 is Yahwah – interpreted as “The Lord.”

Here is the correct translation.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulders: And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father; (שַׂר / minister-ing) in peace.



Rev 1 and 21 should read First and Last.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

The proof that God exist is in the fact that spontaneous evolution of life is not possible in this universe. God evolved, then He created. From the Subatomic and the primordial Dark Matter. A type of nothing, because it has no atomic bonds to form anything. God created gravity and gravitons to form the atomic elements of this Universe.

In regards to Yahshua the Messiah. This is how the verse should read.
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Yahshua had no father until he was adopted by the Father, Yahwah.
The Trinitarian doctrine states that the members of the Trinity are co-equal, for which does not agree with scriptures. "Holy Spirit" is a title for Yahwah the Father, and Christ said the Father is greater than himself.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

 

[ppierac]

"The Lord" is Yahwah our Father.

First and Last

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what (the Lord / Yahwah) says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, (the Lord / Yahwah) Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Isaiah 48 is Yahwah – interpreted as “The Lord.”

Here is the correct translation.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulders: And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father; (שַׂר / minister-ing) in peace.



Rev 1 and 21 should read First and Last.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

The proof that God exist is in the fact that spontaneous evolution of life is not possible in this universe. God evolved, then He created. From the Subatomic and the primordial Dark Matter. A type of nothing, because it has no atomic bonds to form anything. God created gravity and gravitons to form the atomic elements of this Universe.

In regards to Yahshua the Messiah. This is how the verse should read.
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Yahshua had no father until he was adopted by the Father, Yahwah.
The Trinitarian doctrine states that the members of the Trinity are co-equal, for which does not agree with scriptures. "Holy Spirit" is a title for Yahwah the Father, and Christ said the Father is greater than himself.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6

"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17

"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

Rev 1:1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

The traditions of men.... have you in serious error..... !!!
Paul

 

[ppierac]

Christ the Head of the New Creation

The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.

We evidently need the wider context to determine which nuance fits best. It is clear that Paul continues his line of thought in the next verse, as he uses the conjunction “for”: "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through him and for him" (v.16).
Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth.
He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God…"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word. (ῥῆμα/ rhēma) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
Please note that the word used here is not Logos as it is used in John 1 but rhēma .

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.


This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.

Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

There is no God in the flesh hybrid (Theos aner) in these verses.

If Jesus is already God in the flesh then He can not have a God because it would be two Gods not one. Yet, scripture clearly tell us he does have a God, both before and after His resurrection. Philippians 4:20; Ephesians 4:6; John 20:17; Matthew 27:46; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:2.

One issue is God can not die. So if Jesus was God then he would have had to pretend to die and thus there would not be any forgiveness of sin because he really didn't die.

Your Traditions of men confuses the truth... God can not die!!! Jesus did!!

 

[Fred]

John 17:3

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Jude 4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

According to Jude 4 the only Master (despotēs) that applies to each Christian is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you agree?