The Rapture

[brightfame52]

You were trying to make all mention of a city as the same. I was showing you the differences.

The Church is the city Abraham was looking for, its a heavenly City Heb 12:22-23

but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Its the great gathering of the people, Jacob knew about it Gen 49:10


The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

 

[Wordsmith]

I'm not so sure (although I used to think that). There are eye-witness accounts, from that time, of battles in the sky and a huge figure surrounded by a glorious light.

I do not doubt there were eyewitness accounts of something but I do not believe they saw the return of Christ!

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

There is no Rapture.
The same way Jesus ascended is the same way He's coming back.

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11.

 

[David1701]

Hey brother, what sources do you have for this? Is one Flavius Josephus? Are there others? I would like to look into it.

Here is a very brief summary of what the Bible says about Christ's return.

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

Here are some historical accounts from that time.

Josephus describes what happened to Jerusalem in 68-70 A.D., in his book, "Wars of the Jews". The smoke that rose from Jerusalem darkened the sky and the moon looked like blood, because of the flames. The sea turned red because of the blood of the more than a million Jews who were slaughtered by the Roman army. Tens of thousands of dead bodies covered the streets. There was horrendous famine, including mothers eating their own children, numerous false prophets, etc..

Josephus also described how armies of angels appeared in the clouds with great fire, that there were supernatural signs, that a bright light shone from heaven, that the presence of the Lord left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives, etc..

The above is a second-hand summary, because I don't have the book.

There are also other writers of the period...

"A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded."
(Quote from chapter 44 from the Latin version of the Pseudo-Hegesippus)

...and Eusebius...

'A demonic phantom appeared of incredible size, and what will be related would have seemed a fairy-tale had it not been told by those who saw it, and been attended by suffering worthy of the portent. For before sunset there appeared in the air over the whole country chariots and armed troops coursing through the clouds and surrounding the cities.'
(Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

...Josephus...

"...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

(Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2-3)

...Tacitus...

"There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies,
fiery gleams of arms..."

"...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds."
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

...Sepher Josippon (from the 16th C.)...

"Now it happened after this that there was seen over the Holy of Holies from above for the entire night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was very awesome."

"Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire."
(Sepher Jossipon, Burning of the temple, Chapter 87)

 

[Wordsmith]

There is no Rapture.

There is a catching up of the saints. The word rapture means a lot of different things to different people.

The same way Jesus ascended is the same way He's coming back.

True!

 

[Deleted member 5]

Here is a very brief summary of what the Bible says about Christ's return.

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

Here are some historical accounts from that time.

Josephus describes what happened to Jerusalem in 68-70 A.D., in his book, "Wars of the Jews". The smoke that rose from Jerusalem darkened the sky and the moon looked like blood, because of the flames. The sea turned red because of the blood of the more than a million Jews who were slaughtered by the Roman army. Tens of thousands of dead bodies covered the streets. There was horrendous famine, including mothers eating their own children, numerous false prophets, etc..

Josephus also described how armies of angels appeared in the clouds with great fire, that there were supernatural signs, that a bright light shone from heaven, that the presence of the Lord left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives, etc..

The above is a second-hand summary, because I don't have the book.

There are also other writers of the period...

"A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded."
(Quote from chapter 44 from the Latin version of the Pseudo-Hegesippus)

...and Eusebius...

'A demonic phantom appeared of incredible size, and what will be related would have seemed a fairy-tale had it not been told by those who saw it, and been attended by suffering worthy of the portent. For before sunset there appeared in the air over the whole country chariots and armed troops coursing through the clouds and surrounding the cities.'
(Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

...Josephus...

"...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

(Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2-3)

...Tacitus...

"There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies,
fiery gleams of arms..."

"...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds."
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

...Sepher Josippon (from the 16th C.)...

"Now it happened after this that there was seen over the Holy of Holies from above for the entire night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was very awesome."

"Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire."
(Sepher Jossipon, Burning of the temple, Chapter 87)

My brother, you do not know how much I appreciate you and this post. I was reading it today when I was at the gym. Man, that is something else. All I can say is wow!

 

[brightfame52]

david1701

Here is a very brief summary of what the Bible says about Christ's return.

So do you believe the second coming of Christ has already occurred ?

 

[David1701]

My brother, you do not know how much I appreciate you and this post. I was reading it today when I was at the gym. Man, that is something else. All I can say is wow!

Thanks, brother. Your reaction is the same as when I first discovered this!

 

[David1701]

david1701



So do you believe the second coming of Christ has already occurred ?

I'm far from an expert on eschatology, and I haven't pieced it all together by any means; so, all I can say is that I think that the things that Jesus said would happen to "this generation" actually happened to that generation.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Thanks, brother. Your reaction is the same as when I first discovered this!

Makes me wonder about the chariots thing, the items they saw that were contemporaneous to the times, things, weapons &c people understood. What I mean is did God fix it that way for that reason, but it was really something other, other more spiritual things going on beyond our comprehension?

 

[David1701]

Makes me wonder about the chariots thing, the items they saw that were contemporaneous to the times, things, weapons &c people understood. What I mean is did God fix it that way for that reason, but it was really something other, other more spiritual things going on beyond our comprehension?

Possibly; who knows? It would certainly have helped them to realise that it was a battle, right away.

 

[Marty]

Here is a very brief summary of what the Bible says about Christ's return.

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

Here are some historical accounts from that time.

Josephus describes what happened to Jerusalem in 68-70 A.D., in his book, "Wars of the Jews". The smoke that rose from Jerusalem darkened the sky and the moon looked like blood, because of the flames. The sea turned red because of the blood of the more than a million Jews who were slaughtered by the Roman army. Tens of thousands of dead bodies covered the streets. There was horrendous famine, including mothers eating their own children, numerous false prophets, etc..

Josephus also described how armies of angels appeared in the clouds with great fire, that there were supernatural signs, that a bright light shone from heaven, that the presence of the Lord left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives, etc..

The above is a second-hand summary, because I don't have the book.

There are also other writers of the period...

"A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded."
(Quote from chapter 44 from the Latin version of the Pseudo-Hegesippus)

...and Eusebius...

'A demonic phantom appeared of incredible size, and what will be related would have seemed a fairy-tale had it not been told by those who saw it, and been attended by suffering worthy of the portent. For before sunset there appeared in the air over the whole country chariots and armed troops coursing through the clouds and surrounding the cities.'
(Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

...Josephus...

"...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

(Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2-3)

...Tacitus...

"There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies,
fiery gleams of arms..."

"...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds."
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

...Sepher Josippon (from the 16th C.)...

"Now it happened after this that there was seen over the Holy of Holies from above for the entire night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was very awesome."

"Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire."
(Sepher Jossipon, Burning of the temple, Chapter 87)

Amen history proves the true meaning of prophecies.

 

[armylngst]

Here is a very brief summary of what the Bible says about Christ's return.

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

Here are some historical accounts from that time.

Josephus describes what happened to Jerusalem in 68-70 A.D., in his book, "Wars of the Jews". The smoke that rose from Jerusalem darkened the sky and the moon looked like blood, because of the flames. The sea turned red because of the blood of the more than a million Jews who were slaughtered by the Roman army. Tens of thousands of dead bodies covered the streets. There was horrendous famine, including mothers eating their own children, numerous false prophets, etc..

Josephus also described how armies of angels appeared in the clouds with great fire, that there were supernatural signs, that a bright light shone from heaven, that the presence of the Lord left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives, etc..

The above is a second-hand summary, because I don't have the book.

There are also other writers of the period...

"A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded."
(Quote from chapter 44 from the Latin version of the Pseudo-Hegesippus)

...and Eusebius...

'A demonic phantom appeared of incredible size, and what will be related would have seemed a fairy-tale had it not been told by those who saw it, and been attended by suffering worthy of the portent. For before sunset there appeared in the air over the whole country chariots and armed troops coursing through the clouds and surrounding the cities.'
(Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

...Josephus...

"...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

(Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2-3)

...Tacitus...

"There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies,
fiery gleams of arms..."

"...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds."
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

...Sepher Josippon (from the 16th C.)...

"Now it happened after this that there was seen over the Holy of Holies from above for the entire night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was very awesome."

"Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire."
(Sepher Jossipon, Burning of the temple, Chapter 87)

Does that make Revelation a book of history, and John a historian, considering it was written AFTER this had all happened?

 

[Wordsmith]

Some preterist argue Revelation was written before 70AD. I believe most scholars say it was written much later.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm far from an expert on eschatology, and I haven't pieced it all together by any means; so, all I can say is that I think that the things that Jesus said would happen to "this generation" actually happened to that generation.

Im far from an expert in the last things, however I dont think Christs Second Coming has occurred yet.

 

[civic]

Im far from an expert in the last things, however I dont think Christs Second Coming has occurred yet.

It’s still future

 

[David1701]

Does that make Revelation a book of history, and John a historian, considering it was written AFTER this had all happened?

There are some theologians who think that Revelation was written before 70 A.D..

 

[Marty]

Does that make Revelation a book of history, and John a historian, considering it was written AFTER this had all happened?

There is no proven date for revelation many beleiev that it was written before 70AD

 

[Marty]

That`s fine, people do assume the trib. is 7 years. Now, I am referring to the time when God will punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

`For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. ` (Isa. 26: 21)

This time period when God will again deal with Israel and the nations is consistently referred to as `The Day of the Lord.` It is a time of tribulation and suffering. Zeph. 1: 14 - 18 provides one of the most concise descriptive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jer. 30: 7, Daniel 12: 1 and Joel 2: 2. Jesus Himself warned `For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

The time-slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return; and He specifically links it to the `Abomination of Desolation` spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. (Matt. 25: 15 - 30) Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the final seven years of Gentile Domination, (Dan. 9: 24 - 27). It is thus evident and conclusive that the Great Tribulation and the final seven years run concurrent.

Well I believe that Daniels 70th week was in the past but there is a difference in a tribulation and the wrath of God

 

[Josheb]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Hmmmm....

Jesus says this episode will occur like it did in the days of Noah. In the days of Noah the ones who were taken away died. It was the ones who were taken away by the flood that were destroyed! It was the ones who remained, who were left behind after the flood that went on to live in a covenant relationship with God. This passage in Matthew 24 (and Luke 17) is NOT about a rapture. It's about destructive judgment.

Go read the Genesis account of the flood in chapters 6 thru 9. The read the Matthew 24 and Luke 17 passages paying attention to the details of the text.

Luke 17:26-30
26And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so will it also be in the days of the Son of Man: 27people were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, and they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28https://biblehub.com/nasb_/luke/17.htm#fnIt was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, and they were building; 29but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.


Those taken away were destroyed. Not saved.