The Rapture

[Marty]

I agree about those taken away as in the flood, for judgment. However, the Body of Christ will be `caught up` to the Lord and then taken to His throne where they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Thus, before the tribulation.

Why before the tribulation?

 

[Carbon]

However, God has not cast away His people Israel. (Rom. 11: 1)

He created them for a purpose and He created the Body of Christ for a different purpose.

That's dispensationalism. I disagree. Here we ned the grace to agree to disagree.

 

[Carbon]

@Marilyn C @Sereni-tea @Aunty Jane


I didn't know there were Dispensationalists in Australia. Wow.

Just kidding.

 

[Marilyn C]

That's dispensationalism. I disagree. Here we ned the grace to agree to disagree.

As to agreeing to disagree, I would say `agree THAT we disagree, otherwise we can`t really discuss for we are saying that we are agreeing to disagree. Hope you understood that.

I don`t have to be dispensationalist to know that Israel was and still is a part of God`s purposes. I see God`s word as an unfolding of His character and His purposes and not about certain divisions. Hope that explains my view.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C @Sereni-tea @Aunty Jane


I didn't know there were Dispensationalists in Australia. Wow.

Just kidding.

Are these all Aussies?

 

[brightfame52]

Not really. Abraham looked for a city, while the Body of Christ will be on Christ`s throne in the third heaven. (Rev.3: 21) Note, the city comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2)

Two different inheritances.

The City Abraham looked for is the Body of Christ, Jesus called it a City Matt 5:14

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

The Church, which Christ is the builder Matt 16:18


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The Church in its completed and perfected state in Glory.

Heb 11:40

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why before the tribulation?

Because we will be part of the court that judges the world system from the Lord`s own throne. He is the supreme court judge. (Dan. 7: 10 & 26)

 

[David1701]

Those in Matthew who are taken away are the wicked. They ask Jesus where they are taken, "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Matthew 24:28. That's not the rapture.

That's right. The corpse was the dead body of unbelieving Jews. The "vultures" (or eagles) were the Roman army, whose symbol was the eagle. This happened in 70 A.D., when the stone temple was destroyed. The believing Jews believed Jesus' warning and escaped to the hills.

 

[Marilyn C]

The City Abraham looked for is the Body of Christ, Jesus called it a City Matt 5:14

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

The Church, which Christ is the builder Matt 16:18


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The Church in its completed and perfected state in Glory.

Heb 11:40

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

`Something better,` in Gk. `kreitton, from `kratos,` means `a greater dominion.` The Body of Christ will have a greater dominion from the third heaven.

The `city` Abraham looked for was a `heavenly country` (Heb. 11: 16)

Jerusalem on earth was a city on a hill.

Jesus is NOT building anything on Peter. Jesus is the foundation. (1 Cor. 3: 11)

 

[Marilyn C]

That's right. The corpse was the dead body of unbelieving Jews. The "vultures" (or eagles) were the Roman army, whose symbol was the eagle. This happened in 70 A.D., when the stone temple was destroyed. The believing Jews believed Jesus' warning and escaped to the hills.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 30)

And that is yet future.

 

[David1701]

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 30)

And that is yet future.

I'm not so sure (although I used to think that). There are eye-witness accounts, from that time, of battles in the sky and a huge figure surrounded by a glorious light.

 

[brightfame52]

`Something better,` in Gk. `kreitton, from `kratos,` means `a greater dominion.` The Body of Christ will have a greater dominion from the third heaven.

The `city` Abraham looked for was a `heavenly country` (Heb. 11: 16)

Jerusalem on earth was a city on a hill.

Jesus is NOT building anything on Peter. Jesus is the foundation. (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Huh ? You lost me.

 

[Marilyn C]

Huh ? You lost me.

You were trying to make all mention of a city as the same. I was showing you the differences.

 

[armylngst]

`Something better,` in Gk. `kreitton, from `kratos,` means `a greater dominion.` The Body of Christ will have a greater dominion from the third heaven.

The `city` Abraham looked for was a `heavenly country` (Heb. 11: 16)

Jerusalem on earth was a city on a hill.

Jesus is NOT building anything on Peter. Jesus is the foundation. (1 Cor. 3: 11)

When Jesus told Peter that his name was rock, and that on this rock He would build His church, He wasn't speaking of Peter, but the faith Peter had when he said that Jesus is the Son of the living God. On that faith is Jesus building His church. A faith present in all true believers.

 

[David1701]

Hey brother, what sources do you have for this? Is one Flavius Josephus? Are there others? I would like to look into it.

I can't remember, offhand. I'll have to look it up.

 

[Hodgie]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

(Sorry for posting this up a second time. A moderator was overzealous and deleted my original because I had not said "Hi" in an introduction thread.)

Personally, I believe that there is only one rapture and that is on the Day of Judgement. Jesus even said this. I am premillennialist but I do not believe in a pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. The bible does not even say that there is a pre, mid or post trib rapture. So, we go through the tribulation and then live on earth afterwards. (If we survive)

We know that the last day is the Day of Judgement and Jesus said that He will raise all believers up on this day as well as all non-believers.
Jesus said "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So, believers are raised up on the last day.
Now here is the verse for the unbelievers being raised at the same time. John 12:48 says “The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.” So, unbelievers are also raised on the last day to give an account. The Last Day is the Great Day of the Lord, or as many refer to it as, Judgement Day. This is the day that we will all be raised. Every believer and non-believer raised.

So, now you're asking, "Who are the saints that come back and reign with Jesus for 1000 years."
Before I answer this, I want to show you something that you may have read before but never saw it (It was hidden from you).
We know that Jesus judges the world. So, Jesus judges everyone. But in Matthew 19:28 Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So, they will be giving thrones and they will sit on the thrones.
Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Now let's look at who comes back to reign with Christ for 1000 years. Let's look at Rev 20:4.
It says "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So, these special believers are the ones who give their lives for the testimony of Christ during the time of the beast. Revelation 4 continues saying “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” So, it is only the martyrs who are raised and no one else. The rest of the believers and non-believers are not raised until after the 1000 years.

Now, if you look at the beginning of verse 4, you will notice that there are several Judges who judge the martyrs. This is not Jesus as there are more than one. “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” The reason, I believe that there are several judges, is because this is the disciples judging the Jewish people who gave their lives for the testimony of Jesus.

So, let’s see what Revelation says about where the martyrs come from and who they are.
In Rev 6:11 it describes the martyrs. Each of them was given a white robe and they had to wait until the number of them was completed.
“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.”
We can identify the martyrs because they were given white robes.

Then in Rev 7:4-8 as John is having a vision, it describes how an angel tells him the number of people who are to be martyred (the number to be completed as stated in Rev 6:11) and he hears where they come from. The angel puts Gods seal on these people’s heads. John does not see them at this point, he only hears as the angel tell him the number. The angel describes them as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. Most people stop here at verse 8 and then believe John has a new vision in verse 9. But I believe we are meant to continue reading as it is all a part of one vision. If we continue reading further, John actually sees the martyrs. That is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. He also describes them. So, verses 4-8 describes what and angel tells him but then in verses 9-17 John describes what he sees. He sees an amazing crowd, so massive that he could not count them and they were wearing white robes. Imagine seeing 144,000 people. It would seem impossible to count. These people came from all over the world. Now before WW2, the Jewish people were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but all the long, they kept their identity. Then Israel, the country, was formed in 1948 and the Jewish people started to return. Thus, the wording, “of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues”. You will also notice in verse 9, that they are the same people who were given the white robes.

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, …….. Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." So, the martyrs are the 144,000 who are from the twelve tribes of Israel. Hence the reason why in Revelation 20:4, it had several Judges. The disciples were on their thrones, judging people from Israel.

If you need me to explain Thes 4:13-18, then I can do that as well.

 

[Marty]

Because we will be part of the court that judges the world system from the Lord`s own throne. He is the supreme court judge. (Dan. 7: 10 & 26)

How does that have anything to do with it happening before a so called 7 year tribulation?

Actually where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned anywhere in the bible?

 

[Marilyn C]

How does that have anything to do with it happening before a so called 7 year tribulation?

Actually where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned anywhere in the bible?

Now, where did I say a 7 year trib?

 

[Marty]

Now, where did I say a 7 year trib?

Okay sorry you didn’t actually say 7 year trib but which tribulation are you referring too?

 

[Marilyn C]

Okay sorry you didn’t actually say 7 year trib but which tribulation are you referring too?

That`s fine, people do assume the trib. is 7 years. Now, I am referring to the time when God will punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

`For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. ` (Isa. 26: 21)

This time period when God will again deal with Israel and the nations is consistently referred to as `The Day of the Lord.` It is a time of tribulation and suffering. Zeph. 1: 14 - 18 provides one of the most concise descriptive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jer. 30: 7, Daniel 12: 1 and Joel 2: 2. Jesus Himself warned `For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

The time-slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return; and He specifically links it to the `Abomination of Desolation` spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. (Matt. 25: 15 - 30) Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the final seven years of Gentile Domination, (Dan. 9: 24 - 27). It is thus evident and conclusive that the Great Tribulation and the final seven years run concurrent.