The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Mercy_Shown]

Is that an actual quote? But you present God from an anthropomorphic view all the time, so what is a person supposed to think you think?

Here is another pronouncement. Made without so much as a smidgeon of truth. Theological jargon does not make a statement true, and this one is utterly false.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

How do you know they are my opinions if you do not even know what they are---Shroom!! You can do better than this. And if you don't/can't then I am done.

They are your opinions because the conclusions are not in scripture but in your bias. Take any one of the posts in which you exegete a passage and look at the conclusion. It is an extension of your bias. People often "exegete" to prove their forgone conclusion rather than see the truth.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

This does not demonstrate that your interpretation is correct, it only repeats that it is. Why doesn't it? Because if you say it means we can lose our salvation then you need to explain those passages that clearly say we cannot. And I gave them to you.

None clearly say we cannot. Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly says we can; however, I would not use the word lose. I would use the word reject. No one loses their salvation, some give it up, some quit enduring, and some simply return to what they love.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

This does not demonstrate that your interpretation is correct, it only repeats that it is. Why doesn't it? Because if you say it means we can lose our salvation then you need to explain those passages that clearly say we cannot. And I gave them to you.

Let's look at John 10:28-29

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."


This is a precious promise that God gives His sheep, but even though no one can take them from His hand, it does not mean they cannot leave of their own accord. Someone taking them by force from God Is ludicrous, but God allowing them to leave of their own volition is entirely consistent with a God of love who desires that all men come to him of their own choice. And that is what we see portrayed in Heb 6:4-6 and in the parable of the sower.

When the disciples were bitterly disappointed by Christ's declaration that to be saved, one must eat Him, resulting in the subsequent desertion of most of His followers, He asked the 12, will you leave also? They chose to stay, but later on, one recanted that decision and betrayed Christ.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Except that John is writing the words of Jesus to the church of the Laodiceans.

But were they? They were headed in the wrong direction. Is that the effect Grace has on believers?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And since we have the knowledge of God that He does as He pleases; (Psalm 115:3) and since we have the knowledge of God that He is sovereign over all His creation and always accomplishes what He determines to do; Prov 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Is 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.';

And since we have Jesus substituting Himself in the place of believers making propitiation and purchasing them with His blood;

None of this stops a person from walking away if they choose to.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And in the complete absence of any discussion in the Bible on it being God's plan to give every individual equal opportunity to make a choice whether to accept or reject Christ;

This is not true. It is your bias blinding you to the obvious.

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 2:26
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

No, these are not proof texts; they are examples of texts appealing to people for a decision for Christ. This is where the tight circular reasoning of reformed theology kicks in.

"Well," the Reformed theologian intones, "the ones who chose not to continue in Christ and fell away were never really saved in the first place."

"How do you know that?"

"Because they fell away."

 

[Arial]

They are your opinions because the conclusions are not in scripture but in your bias. Take any one of the posts in which you exegete a passage and look at the conclusion. It is an extension of your bias. People often "exegete" to prove their forgone conclusion rather than see the truth.

Can you show me that they are not in there? That would be a response. That would be a rebuttal. Exegete the scripture from your bias. Just like I did for mine. And can you not see that you are always doing the thing you say I am doing? So which one fits Bible consistency? Which one fits the self revealed God and the revealed Jesus? And which one changes the self revealed God by adding for instance, the concept of choose to every scripture that says repent or believe? And tell me that by doing that they aren't doing so because they have a particular view of God that will not stand up to His self revelation? Maybe that doesn't even matter to you. Maybe you do not even know what I mean. If that is the case, you shouldn't argue as though you do. You shoudln't engage in conversations against Reformed thology at all.

Proper exegesis and hermeneutics, is a discipline. It has rules. Someone is not engaging in it just because they say they are. Maybe you should look into that. You should be able to recognize it when you see it, and recognize when you are not doing it.

 

[Arial]

Here is another pronouncement. Made without so much as a smidgeon of truth. Theological jargon does not make a statement true, and this one is utterly false.

Ask anyone. It has been pointed out almost every time you do it.

But I am not doing this anymore. Go back to post #352. Read it carefully for comprehension and respond to my asking you for a definition. If we can't get past this snarkiness and reboot and have an actual conversation, there is no point in continuing.

 

[Arial]

No, these are not proof texts; they are examples of texts appealing to people for a decision for Christ.

None of them say anything about God giving a free will choice to everyone either.

This is where the tight circular reasoning of reformed theology kicks in.

"Well," the Reformed theologian intones, "the ones who chose not to continue in Christ and fell away were never really saved in the first place."

What do any of those scriptures have to do with Heb 6:4-6 and falling away?

"How do you know that?"

"Because they fell away."

That is your opinion.

 

[makesends]

Really? It is not hypothetical. “Those” refers to the people who have been enlightened. If you do not understand a word like “hypothetical” spend some time researching it. If it were hypotheitcal it would be set of with an indicator such as “if, suppose, perhaps, etc”

You suppose me to be ignorant of what "hypothetical" means? If it were "hypotheitcal", it does not need to "be set of with an indicator such as “if, suppose, perhaps, etc”" If it is set with one of those, yes, that indicates hypothetical. If it is not, it still may be a hypothetical construction. The IF is implied as shown by the preceding and following passages. Really.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

None of them say anything about God giving a free will choice to everyone either.

They express free-will choice with every syllable. They are clear invitations which would be unnecessary for people who have been changed.

What do any of those scriptures have to do with Heb 6:4-6 and falling away?

The fact that people are brought to spiritual life to make a choice and some choose the wrong way even after they have been enlightened and have partaken of the Holy Spirit. God did not lose these ones out of His hand, they left on their own.

That is your opinion.

No it isn't. This circular reasoning has been used over and over by reformed believers. Even you have claimed that the reason some fell away was because they were never converted in the first place. How could you know that? The only way you could is if you figured that they would not have fallen away if they had truly been saved by Grace and born again.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Ask anyone. It has been pointed out almost every time you do it.

This is a logical fallacy. You can't establish truth by a vote. Particularly in a room full of your own cronies. I have never done it, so it is not possible. You simply are believing what you imagine rather than the facts in the case.

 

[Carbon]

None of this stops a person from walking away if they choose to.

Have you walked away from God?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, ir order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Taking who God is into consideration, give me your definition of "foreknew."

It means exactly what it says. God is the end and the beginning. He knows every decision of every person born on this planet before the planet existed. Those that He foreknew would accept His call and submit to Him he predestined for salvation and glorification. Those that He foreknew would reject His grace, well, what more could He do? He supplied the price for their sins and gave them the same Grace as He gave to all but they would not. These go to eternal destruction.

There was no manipulation only a pre-knowledge of what choices they would make. The fact that there is a choice is reflected in what Paul wrote about evangelism.



So we are Christ's ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Have you walked away from God?

This is like me asking if you are one of the unlucky ones upon which God chooses not to bestow His grace. But the answer is no, I never will.

 

[makesends]

Have you walked away from God?

Lol, I often have thought that I did, but just like I thought I was the cause of "accepting Jesus into my heart", I had not walked away from God, but had only tried to. Had I "quenched" the Spirit? Yeah, that I had, or something I took to mean that. Had I booted him out? No. "God with us" is still with us.

 

[Carbon]

This is like me asking if you are one of the unlucky ones upon which God chooses not to bestow His grace.

But the answer is no, I never will.

Well if you are truly his, I have no doubt. Mainly because you can't, he won't let you. He promises to complete in you, what He started.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Well if you are truly his, I have no doubt. Mainly because you can't, he won't let you. He promises to complete in you, what He started.

He would allow it, but He is my Abba. Yes, he promised to complete, that which he began because I am submitted to Him. But if I were to decide to turn to this world and away from His grace, I would die.

EZ 18:21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Today's joy is the knowledge that righteousness has been imputed to us, but the principle remains. If we turn from Christ's righteousness, we will die, but if we turn back to it, we will live. This is the joy set before us.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You suppose me to be ignorant of what "hypothetical" means? If it were "hypotheitcal", it does not need to "be set of with an indicator such as “if, suppose, perhaps, etc”" If it is set with one of those, yes, that indicates hypothetical. If it is not, it still may be a hypothetical construction. The IF is implied as shown by the preceding and following passages. Really.

You say you know what hypothetical means, but then your actions deny that. There is nothing in Hebrews 6 to indicate that it is hypothetical. If you really knew what it means, you would see that. "It is impossible for those..." Where is the "if" in that? Implied or otherwise?