The parable of the fig tree and "this generation"

[TMSO]

Let us continue in our search considering the word "generation"~ in the scriptures~D.W. "Red" Baker​

Now we will look at Matthew 24, 25, where we find the phrase this generation, where so many Christians, and others, divide over its meaning. We are convinced that the context of Matthew 24 will provide for us the biblical meaning that Jesus intended for us to understand when he spoke those words to his disciples ~ in what is referred to as the Olivet discourse. We included chapter 25, since it was one discourse and we should not divorce the two chapters from the message that Christ was teaching his people unto the end of the world.

First, the application of Matthew 24~Some approach this chapter totally literally regardless of the reckless handling of the scriptures that is require in order to do so. The premillennialist apply Matthew 24 literal, but many of them swing back and forth in this chapter, some even saying that this chapter has a twofold applications of pertaining to Jews in 70 A.D. and then it pertains the the end of this world and Christ's second coming. They truly do not know what they believe, but they do believe, which is important, So, we do not judge their salvation, only their understanding of the truth.

The truth is, nobody truly interprets this chapter from start to finished literally. The Preterist, and the Historic claims they do, until they reach Matthew 24:27-31, and then their imagination get the best of them, and they can no longer lean on their champion Josephus and his book ~ The Wars of the Jews. There are good men in this camp, yet, we strongly disagree with them and believe we can prove them to be in error, but more than that, we want to help them to see the truth, not so much prove any man to be in error, there's no profit in doing that, we all are out to know ( or, at least should be ) the truth and to defend it for the glory of our Saviour who spoke this discourse.

We will teach this discourse from a Amill idealist position ~which is, to read the scriptures literal, or words have no meaning if we do not do so ~ and then we seek to understand what we are reading by comparing scriptures with scriptures and causing them to give to give us their proper sense and spiritual meaning, ( spiritual meaning from the Spirit, not from men ) which sense is hidden from the natural eyes and from lazy students of the word, or from men who just want to be a rubber stamped Christians by allowing other men to do their studding for them. I have found that most believers on Christian forums are not rubber stamp believers, which is a good thing.

When I say I'm teaching this chapter from a Amill idealist position~that name tag is not something I like, but a name which is given to folks who understand the truth is hidden in the scriptures under seemly words that can only mean what it said~like the words.... all, world, Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, and a host of others, when the truth is, the bible is not written like the New York Times, or the Washington Post, etc. But was given by the Holy Ghost to reveal precious truths to God's elect, not to the reprobates who care nothing for God's words, so it is hidden from them as their just reward. But, we will add, not to all of the elect, but to whosoever God is please to reveal his truth to.

Matthew 13:17~" For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. "

If we want to least be among those that do hear, then we must do all we can to be there, and it may be, God will be pleased to open up his precious word to us.

I am premil, and I take it literally. However, I understand that the disciples asked Jesus three different questions, and so there are three answers in the passage. Signs for what Jesus has said, Jesus coming, and the end of the age. Three questions. I believe the answer to Jesus coming starts with the abomination of desolation, ending at Jesus bodily return at the end of the great tribulation Jesus speaks of. I also believe that the parable of the fig tree is in dealing with Christ's return, and not what happened in 70AD. After the parable of the fig tree, Jesus speaks of the coming of the end of the age, of which Jesus does not know the day or hour, so He provides no signs. He just says that it will be like in the days of Noah, where life is just life, until the end comes. In their case, the flood, in our case, the final judgement.

The "generation" cannot be who Jesus was speaking to, because Jesus says in the parable that ASSUREDLY (in other words, it WILL happen) all the things above (well, starting at the abomination of desolation), to include Christ's bodily return to Earth, will happen before this generation passes away. So, did Jesus bodily return to Earth, to be seen by the whole world, before John the apostle died? If not, then we must, by definition, still be waiting for the signs Jesus spoke of, and that generation which sees those signs is the one that will not pass away until it ends. It will be like with Jesus. God told Simeon that He would not die until he saw the hope of Israel. God was not speaking to the end redemption of Israel, but Jesus the Messiah being born. There is still a future hope, however, the root of that hope, the foundation... the cornerstone of that hope, is Christ.

 

[TMSO]

First of all~you are assuming "this" generation has reference to time, when in fact it does not. The context will prove otherwise. Context is king, it will drive the interpretation for us of what is under consideration.

That is not true. There is actually precedence for this. For instance, Simeon.
"25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ."

Then there is Jesus prophecy to the disciples: "28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”" This was fulfilled in John, perhaps others, but John wrote it down.

This generation has reference to time. Why did Jesus give this parable, if it did not? What He said of the fig tree relates to time. What He said of those who see the signs above, relates to time. As such, what He says next also relates to time. The generation that sees the signs will not pass away before all is fulfilled. (Considering the great tribulation is only a seven year period, that is totally possible. It relates to the 70th week. Daniel refers to the abomination that makes desolate, and here, Jesus says "“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”". Jesus links this time, to the 70th week of Daniel. There are two other places where this comes up in Daniel, in Daniel 11 and 12. (To not ignore possible, additional context.)

Interpretations must agree with their context. We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; We should learn to spot it.​

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.

Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.

Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.

A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Here is the context:
"32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

What are all these things to be seen? Given the fact that the disciples asked three different questions: "3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”"

Basic answer to the questions:
"4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, [b]pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

"and then the end will come" That would seem to say that this section is stand alone. Here is the basic answer to your questions. So, when these things will be.

Jesus then goes on speaking of what precedes His coming:
"15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

And then:
"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true.

You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy.

That being said, Matthew 24:5-25 our Lord Jesus reveals to us certain events that will be signs of his soon coming back and our responsibility to avoid being deceived by that which will take place in those days leading up to his return. Mainly this world will be flooded with false prophets who will preach that Jesus is the Christ, yet their message is mostly centered around them and their lifestyle of greed living mainly for this present world but using the gospel as the means of doing so. More on this later.

Let me use a seperate post to answer this so I'll not be too long with my post.

I do my best to use context, because it is true that you can make someone say whatever you want by ignoring context.

 

[TMSO]

No. Scripture never says the words "worse than". It uses the phrase that there would never be another tribulation "such as" that Great Tribulation period. This is a kind or type of tribulation never before experienced and never afterwards to be experienced in the world.

" 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened."
So let us look up what tribulation means.

tribulation,

θλῖψις (thlipsis)

2347: tribulation

from thlibó

Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.
From thlibo; pressure (literally or figuratively) -- afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

I think the part you miss is that Jesus says "For then there will be great tribulation" Jesus just quantized the tribulation. It will be great. Incredible even. (Right?) No, great as in really bad. Just how great will this tribulation be? "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." In fact, unless the days were shortened, no flesh would be saved. However, it is shortened for the sake of the elect. Perhaps if you understand that "tribulation" here is not the only translation/definition of the greek word.

So since you say it deals with a kind of tribulation, and is not quantized, can you tell us what kind/type of tribulation it will be? I mean, you have the traveling through the wilderness, you have the book of Judges, you have the end of Joshua, you have Achan, you have the siege of Jerusalem where people were eating their children to survive, you have more than one siege of Israel and Jerusalem, you have the diaspora, etc. You will find it difficult to find a kind of tribulation that Israel had not faced before. Quantizing, that is totally possible. However, Israel has faced every kind of tribulation that can be found under the definition of the greek word.

The only logical, rational understanding is that Jesus is quantizing. Especially since, according to the Lexicon, the usage of the word in this verse is dealing with a siege. Israel has been through sieges, more than once. If you consider that Jesus may be speaking about

This is not talking about comparative body counts and the level of bloodshed and warfare in the nation. Christ predicted to His own generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that all the devils which He had cast out of them would return once again in seven-fold numbers of devils more wicked than before. This would render the condition of that generation of Israelites more miserable in their "last state" than they had experienced in their "first state" while Christ and His disciples were among them casting out devils from the people in every city.

It was speaking of body counts. Again, the this generation of the parable refers to the tribulation. That which starts with seeing the abomination of desolation. That marks the beginning of the timeframe of Christ's return, not the end of the age. So the generation that sees those things (the abomination of desolation, and thus the beginning of the tribulation) will see the end when Christ returns on the clouds immediately following the tribulation. And what is the important part of this return? The gathering of ALL the elect. "31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It was demonic oppression of the people of Israel that made this an unprecedented period of tribulation in that generation before the close of AD 70.

Jesus would have said so. Consider what He said they should do in response.
"15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath."
This has to be the future, since we have Jesus mentioning airplanes. (If you can interpret things the way you do, then I too should be able to take that kind of liberty.) Just what about that makes it sound like demonic oppression? You may want to look up in a Lexicon how the word for tribulation is being used here. It isn't about demonic tribulation, but about a siege. Before the millennial kingdom, the beast and his prophet have a massive army with which they intend to attack Israel. I have a feeling this is all related, considering that immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns. Jesus returns before the Millennial Kingdom and wipes out all the armies coming for Israel. (At Israel?) It is also at this time that we have the first of the two resurrections. Those in this resurrection will not face the second death.

" 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Please tell me you don't believe in soul sleep. If not soul sleep, then you believe that there are immortals living amongst us?

 

[TMSO]

In the above verse Jesus is speaking about a future time. How far into the future??? It doesn't say.
Jesus then goes on to say that the generation that is around when the fig tree becomes tender and puts forth leaves will not pass till those things mentioned happened.

We are of that generation.

I would not go that far, however, I do not deny the possibility. I have yet to see the abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel (and Jesus). I will say that my eyes are wide open. (Perhaps not a great idea, because it is too easy to be deceived by every person who cries wolf. Hence I do not speak in definite terms, but possibilities. Don't forget the extra oil.

 

[TMSO]

In the above verse Jesus is speaking about a future time. How far into the future??? It doesn't say.
Jesus then goes on to say that the generation that is around when the fig tree becomes tender and puts forth leaves will not pass till those things mentioned happened.

We are of that generation.

I had a problem with the system I am on... Duplicate post.

 

[TMSO]

The terms and directness of Mt24A prohibit us from viewing it as our future. The term "the end" even has some variation: the end of Dan 9? The end of Judaism? The end of the Jewish age prior to the times of the Gentiles? All this must be considered.

You should read Matthew 24 again. The end of the age. Jesus speaks of it after the parable of the fig tree. The final judgement. You should understand that the disciples were not ignorant of eschatology. They believed Jesus was here as the Messiah to defeat Rome, and the end would come. (End of the age)

As for a delay, there is no deception if he says a few verses later that 'only the Father knows.' If only the Father knows, he is confusing us by opening his mouth at all. He is allowing for a delay.

Consider what comes before the parable of the fig tree.
"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And then we have:
"34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

So if Jesus is speaking of the disciples generation, then 29-31 occurred before 104AD (possible death date of John the apostle. It could have been as early as 100 AD).

Then we have Jesus speaking of the end and final judgement. Of this He states that no one knows the hour except the Father. Hence there are no signs given. (Jesus has no signs, because He doesn't even know when it will take place.) All we get at the start of Matthew 24 is " 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." This ends the answer to the disciples question: “Tell us, when will these things be?" Starting with the abomination of desolation, and ending with Jesus literally speaking of the sign of the Son of Man is the answer to the question "And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”. For dealing with the end of the age, which is judgement, there are no signs given. He just speaks of Noah's time, and then, boom, people are taken away to judgement. No warning. No signs.

While Jesus speaks of His coming immediately after the tribulation, no one knows when. All we know is that the parable of the fig tree has Jesus saying "34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." In God we trust, all others, cash only.

Mk 13's parable of 4 options of the time of the Master's return also allow for a delay, AKA a later option.

But Jesus is clear about this generation.

2 P 3: in order to save the elect, there has to be more people generally. What is your point? What I am saying is that I do not know of anything else to which to attach the delay mentioned there than the final day of judgement--he's saying the same thing he heard in Mt 24 and he's saying it because a delay needs to be explained.

The delay would mean that the tribulation hasn't happened yet, since Jesus says it immediately follows the tribulation. (The end of the tribulation ends with an army the number of the sands of the sea attacking Israel. The army of the beast, and his prophet.)

One reason, in terms of Dan 9, why this is already an issue for Peter is that the ordinary reading of Dan 9 would make us think that its "the end" would take place no more than 3.5 years after the cutting off of Messiah. He wrote 2 P 3 after that, facing mockers. They were likely mocking that it had been longer than 3.5. It may be that Peter adjusted what he said to that generation, which makes 70 so significant. It would be interesting to know when the letter of Hebrews hit the Christian world with its dire comparison of its generation and the ancient Sinai one. It means that that generation was equally decisive, which we already know from Acts 3:23.

7 years after. The first 3 1/2 years are peace through a covenant with the world leader (for Israel). This will be broken after 3 1/2 weeks, and the prince will be defeated at the end of the week.

The historian Lattourrette writes that when 72 passed by and nothing cosmic happened the remaining disciples simply continued on in evangelism, because 'all bets were off.'

Soon always means soon, even if it is 1000 years from now. We don't know the date. Hence we must be ready at every moment. Occupy until He comes.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us continue in our search considering the word "generation"~ in the scriptures~D.W. "Red" Baker​

Now we will look at Matthew 24, 25, where we find the phrase this generation, where so many Christians, and others, divide over its meaning. We are convinced that the context of Matthew 24 will provide for us the biblical meaning that Jesus intended for us to understand when he spoke those words to his disciples ~ in what is referred to as the Olivet discourse. We included chapter 25, since it was one discourse and we should not divorce the two chapters from the message that Christ was teaching his people unto the end of the world.

First, the application of Matthew 24~Some approach this chapter totally literally regardless of the reckless handling of the scriptures that is require in order to do so. The premillennialist apply Matthew 24 literal, but many of them swing back and forth in this chapter, some even saying that this chapter has a twofold applications of pertaining to Jews in 70 A.D. and then it pertains the the end of this world and Christ's second coming. They truly do not know what they believe, but they do believe, which is important, So, we do not judge their salvation, only their understanding of the truth.

The truth is, nobody truly interprets this chapter from start to finished literally. The Preterist, and the Historic claims they do, until they reach Matthew 24:27-31, and then their imagination get the best of them, and they can no longer lean on their champion Josephus and his book ~ The Wars of the Jews. There are good men in this camp, yet, we strongly disagree with them and believe we can prove them to be in error, but more than that, we want to help them to see the truth, not so much prove any man to be in error, there's no profit in doing that, we all are out to know ( or, at least should be ) the truth and to defend it for the glory of our Saviour who spoke this discourse.

We will teach this discourse from a Amill idealist position ~which is, to read the scriptures literal, or words have no meaning if we do not do so ~ and then we seek to understand what we are reading by comparing scriptures with scriptures and causing them to give to give us their proper sense and spiritual meaning, ( spiritual meaning from the Spirit, not from men ) which sense is hidden from the natural eyes and from lazy students of the word, or from men who just want to be a rubber stamped Christians by allowing other men to do their studding for them. I have found that most believers on Christian forums are not rubber stamp believers, which is a good thing.

When I say I'm teaching this chapter from a Amill idealist position~that name tag is not something I like, but a name which is given to folks who understand the truth is hidden in the scriptures under seemly words that can only mean what it said~like the words.... all, world, Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, and a host of others, when the truth is, the bible is not written like the New York Times, or the Washington Post, etc. But was given by the Holy Ghost to reveal precious truths to God's elect, not to the reprobates who care nothing for God's words, so it is hidden from them as their just reward. But, we will add, not to all of the elect, but to whosoever God is please to reveal his truth to.

Matthew 13:17~" For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. "

If we want to least be among those that do hear, then we must do all we can to be there, and it may be, God will be pleased to open up his precious word to us.

I posted this here by mistake, but have corrected it by posting this same post in the thread I started a week or so ago.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/let-us-consider-the-word-generation-in-the-scriptures-a-very-important-word-in-light-of-1st-peter-2-9-and-matthew-24-34-and-many-other-scriptures.1254/

 

[Red Baker]

You seem to miss that the disciples asked three questions, two which were related, and therefore received three answers. You are combining them all, and missing the point of what Jesus was saying. The first part, up to the abomination of desolation is the temple,

Sorry, I've been busy.

Sir, I'm not missing what you think I'm missing. You are making some critical errors, the first is ~ by you thinking the first part of the disciples questions take them up to the abomination of desolation, which is not so. Actually all of MAtthew 24:2-25 is addressing one subject, a period of time ( the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, Jacob meaning the very elect ) leading up to Christ second coming, which is address in length from v26 of Matthew 24 to Matthew 25:46.
Besides, we will differ on the subject of "what is the abomination" that God will make desolate, not the Roman army !? Maybe we need to settle that subject before moving on.

the next part is all connected to the great tribulation

My friend, all is connected with the great tribulation from 2-25, yet one could build his case down to verse verse 44 of Matthew 24.

which is connected to the parable of the fig tree, and then, after the parable of the fig tree, all signs cease.

Sir, the fig tree is nothing more than any other tree, except all of them signifies that summer is nigh when they begin to shoot forth buds to bloom. So, likewise, when a believer begins to see happening what Jesus speaks of from verses 2-25, then know his comings is soon to happen at an hour when all are least expecting him to appear, where every eye shall behold him in that day and fear will fill every heart and they shall cry unto the mountains and hills to hide them from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

However, the preterists believe that this is all spiritual. Some believe that the millennium ended in 33 AD, therefore Satan and death were defeated, and we are living some kind of dream I guess. Or they so distort Revelation that it loses meaning.

I'm far from being a preterist, I take the scriptures literal, and interpret them spiritually as the Spirit direct us by comparing scriptures with scriptures until the spiritual puzzle fits perfectly, and it will with patience, prayer and a love for the truth, and a fear of corrupting God's truths.

 

[TMSO]

I doubt if there is any intention to consider the 'world' greater than the known Roman world, or the 17 countries referenced in Acts 2. If you make Mt 24A's direct instructions compare to the Holocaust, it gets out of whack, because Mt 24A (like Mt 10--some of the same language) are about believers in Judea and nearby. The punishment of the Jewish War event, says Luke (Paul) several times, is upon Israel for refusing to work in the true vineyard, the mission of the Gospel. This is a simple matter of political logic, not some dark view of God's anger.

I guess it depends if you believe Jesus to be ignorant of the whole world. Why do so many people wish to treat Jesus as some ignorant human, instead of the all knowing God. The Holocaust was tribulation. A time of internal pressure, persecution, etc. It also resulted in the death of 6 million Jews. You do understand that the Jews were not just in that area, but spread throughout the world, right? Tribulation from God, while it is God's anger, is shown by God to actually be chastisement.

 

[CrowCross]

It's all there predicted in the scriptures, but most will miss these texts. Or misunderstand them. Or ignore them. Or mock them. These responses to scripture are nothing new, even in Christ's day with the words coming out of His mouth directly into the ears of His audience.


Actually, the institutional church over the centuries has had a vested interest in keeping a fearful, cowed group of followers believing the party line - keeps the income flowing into the coffers. An informed, searching group of believers who are Bereans checking out everything they are taught for validity compared to the scriptures is not usually encouraged. Challenges to the status quo are not typically welcomed.

And I would hardly call this website of some 183 members a huge cross-section of all who discuss the scriptures. I am certainly not the only one talking about these things. There is, after all, nothing new under the sun.

Long sigh.....

 

[CrowCross]

I would not go that far, however, I do not deny the possibility. I have yet to see the abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel (and Jesus). I will say that my eyes are wide open. (Perhaps not a great idea, because it is too easy to be deceived by every person who cries wolf. Hence I do not speak in definite terms, but possibilities. Don't forget the extra oil.

You don't really want to see this abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel ....as if you do it means you missed the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

Currently the table is set for the rapture....and just how much of the birth pangs the church will endure, who knows.

 

[Mr GLee]

What does Jesus want His disciples to learn from this parable. If you see signs in a fig tree, you know summer is near. If you see what Jesus is speaking of in the world, you know the end is near--at the doors. So a person is doing those things. A person is seeing the sign in the fig tree, and a person is seeing Jesus words come to pass that means that it is near--at the doors. "This generation" speaks to those who see the things take place. That generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (To include Jesus physical return.)

The parable has to do with the Father giving the Son of man a hunger and thirst for hearing the gospel .The spiritual food the disciples knew not of. Fig the healing of all nations leading toward the root (not seen) planted in the good ground (the light of living abiding word of God where the good seeds fall.

Jesus looking for fruit out of season

Matthew 21:18-20 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

The removal of the temporal healing to the giving of a new born -again heart and soul.

The generation is the generation of those born again opposed to the evil generation that looks to signs being fulfilled before they will believe God not seen. No sign were given to wonder after. Believers the generation of Christ have prophecy sealed with 7 seals with a warning to not add or subtract from the perfect

 

[Mr GLee]

You don't really want to see this abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel ....as if you do it means you missed the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

Currently the table is set for the rapture....and just how much of the birth pangs the church will endure, who knows

The abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel. a Pagan traditions (out of sight out of mind The atheist Jew in 1 Samuel 8 refused to have a invisible entity reigning over them . The first century reformation came and restored the order( sola scriptura) no kings in Israel .

 

[TMSO]

You don't really want to see this abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel ....as if you do it means you missed the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.

Currently the table is set for the rapture....and just how much of the birth pangs the church will endure, who knows.

I'll be honest. I am too busy leaving both eyes open to think this far ahead. However, I believe in pre, but mid is not a problem.

 

[CrowCross]

I'll be honest. I am too busy leaving both eyes open to think this far ahead. However, I believe in pre, but mid is not a problem.

To be honest I don't think you have to think that far ahead. All one has to do is look around.....as the building of the "beast system" can clearly be seen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So since you say it deals with a kind of tribulation, and is not quantized, can you tell us what kind/type of tribulation it will be? I mean, you have the traveling through the wilderness, you have the book of Judges, you have the end of Joshua, you have Achan, you have the siege of Jerusalem where people were eating their children to survive, you have more than one siege of Israel and Jerusalem, you have the diaspora, etc. You will find it difficult to find a kind of tribulation that Israel had not faced before. Quantizing, that is totally possible. However, Israel has faced every kind of tribulation that can be found under the definition of the greek word.

I've already mentioned this particular type of tribulation twice in this post. It's found in Matthew 12:43-45. Christ had prophesied of that first-century generation that every unclean spirit which He and His disciples had cast out of "this wicked generation" in Judea during its "first state" would return once again during its "last state". Each of those unclean spirits would bring along with them seven more unclean spirits more wicked than themselves. A seven-fold oppression of devils represents the complete, entire realm of the demonic coming upon one nation - one particular city in fact, which was Jerusalem, where all those unclean spirits became imprisoned.

Revelation 18:2 also prophesied of the closing days of Babylon the Great (Jerusalem), that this city would become "a habitation for demons, and a hold (phulake - a prison) of every unclean spirit". That is, every single one of the demons and unclean spirits of the Satanic realm present in a single city. This is a type of tribulation that no city or nation had ever experienced before that time, and never will again in the future.

We know from scripture what damage can be done by a single unclean spirit inhabiting a person. And we have the example from scripture that a legion of unclean spirits can all come to torment a single individual. Mary had a total of seven devils to contend with until Christ delivered her. So imagine every unclean spirit that ever existed dwelling within the one confined, besieged city of Jerusalem. Utter mayhem and consummate torment of the citizens within those besieged walls. The way one can confine an unclean spirit within a given location is to confine the human person that the unclean spirit is determined to possess.

If you read Josephus's account of the conditions within Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 years, there is only one reason for the suicidal, maniacal activity that the competing Zealot factions engaged in. It can only be explained by demonic possession of many inhabitants of the city as they preyed upon each other and the unfortunate citizens trapped inside.

Also, Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted this imprisonment of the wicked angelic hosts, gathered together for punishment in one place along with the high priest "kings of the earth" in the city of Jerusalem. After many days of this imprisonment, they would all be "found wanting" - meaning gone from existence. In other words, the demonic realm which God destroyed will never be able to oppress a single city or nation ever again with this kind of great tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

The abomination of desolation was Kings in Israel. a Pagan traditions (out of sight out of mind The atheist Jew in 1 Samuel 8 refused to have a invisible entity reigning over them . The first century reformation came and restored the order( sola scriptura) no kings in Israel .

The bible mentions a guy standing in the temple declaring himself to be God...after recognizing some sort of peace agreement with Israel.

Currently there is no temple and no agreement...or guy.
Currently the Jews have a plan to construct a temple and there is also a sort of peace agreement....Abrahamic accord...as to who the guy is, it appears you'll find out after the rapture.

 

[TMSO]

To be honest I don't think you have to think that far ahead. All one has to do is look around.....as the building of the "beast system" can clearly be seen.

I avoid making predictions, but AI definitely concerns me when thinking about that image of the beast. I consider it to be the corruption of the concept of Jesus as the Son. Still trying to hammer out the possibilities of appearance. Though technology has been presented that, as it matures, will enable an avatar of a person, completely run through AI. (So it will appear to think on its own, and it will be able to directly answer questions, free of any intervention by the person the avatar portrays. Add that to the incredible rate at which robotics is moving, and you have some scary possibilities.

 

[TMSO]

The bible mentions a guy standing in the temple declaring himself to be God...after recognizing some sort of peace agreement with Israel.

Currently there is no temple and no agreement...or guy.
Currently the Jews have a plan to construct a temple and there is also a sort of peace agreement....Abrahamic accord...as to who the guy is, it appears you'll find out after the rapture.

Some point to Macron. I don't go for conspiracies, but they even went as far as pointing out that Macron translates to mark. I usually laught at this, but I'll be honest. I'm really tired after these past few years.

 

[TMSO]

I've already mentioned this particular type of tribulation twice in this post. It's found in Matthew 12:43-45. Christ had prophesied of that first-century generation that every unclean spirit which He and His disciples had cast out of "this wicked generation" in Judea during its "first state" would return once again during its "last state". Each of those unclean spirits would bring along with them seven more unclean spirits more wicked than themselves. A seven-fold oppression of devils represents the complete, entire realm of the demonic coming upon one nation - one particular city in fact, which was Jerusalem, where all those unclean spirits became imprisoned.

I have shown that this does not line up with what Jesus said about the tribulation.

Revelation 18:2 also prophesied of the closing days of Babylon the Great (Jerusalem), that this city would become "a habitation for demons, and a hold (phulake - a prison) of every unclean spirit". That is, every single one of the demons and unclean spirits of the Satanic realm present in a single city. This is a type of tribulation that no city or nation had ever experienced before that time, and never will again in the future.

There is no actual reason to believe it is Jerusalem. Some say Rome is part of it because the the seven hills reference, which is a word for word reference to Rome. (City on seven hills, I believe it is).

We know from scripture what damage can be done by a single unclean spirit inhabiting a person. And we have the example from scripture that a legion of unclean spirits can all come to torment a single individual. Mary had a total of seven devils to contend with until Christ delivered her. So imagine every unclean spirit that ever existed dwelling within the one confined, besieged city of Jerusalem. Utter mayhem and consummate torment of the citizens within those besieged walls. The way one can confine an unclean spirit within a given location is to confine the human person that the unclean spirit is determined to possess.


If you read Josephus's account of the conditions within Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 years, there is only one reason for the suicidal, maniacal activity that the competing Zealot factions engaged in. It can only be explained by demonic possession of many inhabitants of the city as they preyed upon each other and the unfortunate citizens trapped inside.

Also, Isaiah 24:21-23 predicted this imprisonment of the wicked angelic hosts, gathered together for punishment in one place along with the high priest "kings of the earth" in the city of Jerusalem. After many days of this imprisonment, they would all be "found wanting" - meaning gone from existence. In other words, the demonic realm which God destroyed will never be able to oppress a single city or nation ever again with this kind of great tribulation.

I already told you that if you look at the context, it isn't there.
"It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the [f]pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously."

In the Jerusalem that was destroyed utterly, right? Or is it somewhere else? The whole title to Isaiah 24 is Judgement of... the earth. Also, consider Isaiah 4.
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”

The Renewal of Zion​

2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain."

Sinners are not called holy. This is the remnant of Israel.