The parable of the fig tree and "this generation"

[EarlyActs]

Look at it again. It is a parable. Every word is important. Every idea presented has its place.

Jesus starts by talking about someone seeing a fig tree, going to the fig tree, and seeing the branches becoming tender, it is putting forth leaves, and the person knows from experience what that means. Summer is near.
In the same way, if YOU (again, the focus is on the person) see the things Jesus says coming to pass, then know that the end is near--at the door.
This generation speaks of the one who is seeing the signs. So that generation. If the see the signs, assuredly, that generation will not pass away until all that Jesus says comes to pass. That includes:

"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Jesus physical bodily return to Earth. Or this could be the rapture? I don't remember anyone seeing the sign of the Son of man in heaven, do you? Anywhere in history? Is there any time recorded in history where every single person on Earth mourned because they saw Jesus? If this hasn't happened, then what happened to the generation not passing away before ALL is completed? Do we change it to the generation of the church, so it could still be a few thousand years? Or do we understand that Jesus is speaking of the generation alive when these things come to pass.

Don't forget the delay doctrine. Eschatology falls apart without it.

 

[CrowCross]

Zechariah was the one giving this prediction - not me.

I'm not the one who interpreted it wrong.....You did.

 

[TMSO]

Don't forget the delay doctrine. Eschatology falls apart without it.

So, Jesus deliberately deceived everyone by saying immediately, but didn't mean it? I believe there is a delay in that everything Jesus said about a great tribulation has yet to occur. For instance, it is supposed to be worse than any tribulation that Israel has ever faced, and the first century pales in comparison to the Holocaust. Just think, even that wasn't it. So how much worse is this tribulation going to be than the first century? Everyone dies. However, God, being merciful, shortens the time so that some/all His elect still alive at the end survive. I don't remember almost all the population of the whole world being wiped out in the first century, do you? Or was it just Jerusalem? It it is just Jerusalem, it doesn't fit Jesus own description. This is why I bring up the time of the Gentiles. This is why I say that the ones God does not want to perish in II Peter are the elect. There are still people who God has chosen to be His who have not been brought in yet. This is what Peter uses to explain why God is not being slack with His promise, but is keeping His promise to His elect. Consider that if everything ended in the first century, consider all the elect who would be lost. Consider the impact on God's nature that He chose a bunch of people who would never live.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us continue in our search considering the word "generation"~ in the scriptures~D.W. "Red" Baker​

Now we will look at Matthew 24, 25, where we find the phrase this generation, where so many Christians, and others, divide over its meaning. We are convinced that the context of Matthew 24 will provide for us the biblical meaning that Jesus intended for us to understand when he spoke those words to his disciples ~ in what is referred to as the Olivet discourse. We included chapter 25, since it was one discourse and we should not divorce the two chapters from the message that Christ was teaching his people unto the end of the world.

First, the application of Matthew 24~Some approach this chapter totally literally regardless of the reckless handling of the scriptures that is require in order to do so. The premillennialist apply Matthew 24 literal, but many of them swing back and forth in this chapter, some even saying that this chapter has a twofold applications of pertaining to Jews in 70 A.D. and then it pertains the the end of this world and Christ's second coming. They truly do not know what they believe, but they do believe, which is important, So, we do not judge their salvation, only their understanding of the truth.

The truth is, nobody truly interprets this chapter from start to finished literally. The Preterist, and the Historic claims they do, until they reach Matthew 24:27-31, and then their imagination get the best of them, and they can no longer lean on their champion Josephus and his book ~ The Wars of the Jews. There are good men in this camp, yet, we strongly disagree with them and believe we can prove them to be in error, but more than that, we want to help them to see the truth, not so much prove any man to be in error, there's no profit in doing that, we all are out to know ( or, at least should be ) the truth and to defend it for the glory of our Saviour who spoke this discourse.

We will teach this discourse from a Amill idealist position ~which is, to read the scriptures literal, or words have no meaning if we do not do so ~ and then we seek to understand what we are reading by comparing scriptures with scriptures and causing them to give to give us their proper sense and spiritual meaning, ( spiritual meaning from the Spirit, not from men ) which sense is hidden from the natural eyes and from lazy students of the word, or from men who just want to be a rubber stamped Christians by allowing other men to do their studding for them. I have found that most believers on Christian forums are not rubber stamp believers, which is a good thing.

When I say I'm teaching this chapter from a Amill idealist position~that name tag is not something I like, but a name which is given to folks who understand the truth is hidden in the scriptures under seemly words that can only mean what it said~like the words.... all, world, Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, and a host of others, when the truth is, the bible is not written like the New York Times, or the Washington Post, etc. But was given by the Holy Ghost to reveal precious truths to God's elect, not to the reprobates who care nothing for God's words, so it is hidden from them as their just reward. But, we will add, not to all of the elect, but to whosoever God is please to reveal his truth to.

Matthew 13:17~" For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. "

If we want to least be among those that do hear, then we must do all we can to be there, and it may be, God will be pleased to open up his precious word to us.

 

[Red Baker]

So you agree with the preterists that Christ is not returning physically to Earth?

Absolutely I do not! He's coming back one more time when every eye shall see him on the last day. There is no such thing as a secret rapture coming proceeding that coming. The resurrection and the second coming of Christ are one and the same "time event".

It does represent something, hence this is a parable. It is used to explain what Jesus means.

The fig tree, or, all trees begin to bloom, then we all know one truth~summer is nigh at hand, so, likewise, when we see those event as described by the Lord in verses 5-30 of MAtthew 24, THEN KNOW Jesus' coming is nigh at hand, meaning not that far into the distance. The trees begun to bloom in God's eschatology timeline around 1850 plus, when, at which time, this world begun to be flooded with many false cults~to mention a few: Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, and tongues speaking pentecostalism, not to forget the many false versions of the word of God begin to flood the market places of this world.

Without it, you end up divorcing verses that say "This generation will not pass away until it all comes to pass", by not understanding that Jesus means the generation that sees, in this case, the abomination of desolation, will not pass away until all that passes (the great tribulation Jesus speaks of), and his second coming on the clouds that happens immediately after.

Let me come back right here since I just got a call to be somewhere, I'll be back very soon.

 

[Red Baker]

Without it, you end up divorcing verses that say "This generation will not pass away until it all comes to pass", by not understanding that Jesus means the generation that sees, in this case, the abomination of desolation, will not pass away until all that passes (the great tribulation Jesus speaks of), and his second coming on the clouds that happens immediately after.

First of all~you are assuming "this" generation has reference to time, when in fact it does not. The context will prove otherwise. Context is king, it will drive the interpretation for us of what is under consideration.

Interpretations must agree with their context. We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; We should learn to spot it.​

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.

Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.

Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.

A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true.

You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy.

That being said, Matthew 24:5-25 our Lord Jesus reveals to us certain events that will be signs of his soon coming back and our responsibility to avoid being deceived by that which will take place in those days leading up to his return. Mainly this world will be flooded with false prophets who will preach that Jesus is the Christ, yet their message is mostly centered around them and their lifestyle of greed living mainly for this present world but using the gospel as the means of doing so. More on this later.

You seem to miss that the disciples asked three questions, two which were related, and therefore received three answers. You are combining them all, and missing the point of what Jesus was saying. The first part, up to the abomination of desolation is the temple, the next part is all connected to the great tribulation, which is connected to the parable of the fig tree, and then, after the parable of the fig tree, all signs cease. Why? Jesus doesn't have any signs to give because not even He knows when then end of the world is coming. When the final judgement will be. Hence all he can say is that life will be proceeding as it always has, like it was in the days of Noah. And then... poof, its over and the judgement comes. No hint. No signs. Outside of the fact that the second coming will happen first. For that, Jesus gave signs. The sign of the Son of Man will appears, and then the Son of Man will come on the clouds, and the tribes of the Earth will see Him and mourn. It's all very visible. However, the preterists believe that this is all spiritual. Some believe that the millennium ended in 33 AD, therefore Satan and death were defeated, and we are living some kind of dream I guess. Or they so distort Revelation that it loses meaning. Do note, I have nothing against non-preterist amillennialists. At least they still have both feet in scripture.

Let me use a seperate post to answer this so I'll not be too long with my post.

 

[CrowCross]

Absolutely I do not! He's coming back one more time when every eye shall see him on the last day. There is no such thing as a secret rapture coming proceeding that coming. The resurrection and the second coming of Christ are one and the same "time event".

I disagree. Jesus comes back twice....in the clouds at the rapture then once again when he stands on the Mt. of Olives.

One way we can know this is Jesus didn't ascend on a white horse like the second coming tells us he will return on.

 

[3 Resurrections]

For instance, it is supposed to be worse than any tribulation that Israel has ever faced, and the first century pales in comparison to the Holocaust.

No. Scripture never says the words "worse than". It uses the phrase that there would never be another tribulation "such as" that Great Tribulation period. This is a kind or type of tribulation never before experienced and never afterwards to be experienced in the world.

This is not talking about comparative body counts and the level of bloodshed and warfare in the nation. Christ predicted to His own generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that all the devils which He had cast out of them would return once again in seven-fold numbers of devils more wicked than before. This would render the condition of that generation of Israelites more miserable in their "last state" than they had experienced in their "first state" while Christ and His disciples were among them casting out devils from the people in every city.

It was demonic oppression of the people of Israel that made this an unprecedented period of tribulation in that generation before the close of AD 70.

 

[CrowCross]

Matthew 24

"32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

In the above verse Jesus is speaking about a future time. How far into the future??? It doesn't say.
Jesus then goes on to say that the generation that is around when the fig tree becomes tender and puts forth leaves will not pass till those things mentioned happened.

We are of that generation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

One way we can know this is Jesus didn't ascend on a white horse like the second coming tells us he will return on.

If you're going to get literal about the white horse Jesus is riding on, then you had better include the literal metal sword emerging from Jesus's mouth in the same context of Revelation 19:11-15.

 

[CrowCross]

If you're going to get literal about the white horse Jesus is riding on, then you had better include the literal metal sword emerging from Jesus's mouth in the same context of Revelation 19:11-15.

Are you saying that Jesus won't literally return? You know, if the horse isn't literal nor the sword...why then is the second coming literal? Now, besides that...why isn't the ascension of Jesus described in the same literal or non-literal language as the second coming? You see, Jesus comes back in the same way that He left. The rapture is the only return that fits that description.

 

[CrowCross]

No. Scripture never says the words "worse than". It uses the phrase that there would never be another tribulation "such as" that Great Tribulation period. This is a kind or type of tribulation never before experienced and never afterwards to be experienced in the world.

This is not talking about comparative body counts and the level of bloodshed and warfare in the nation. Christ predicted to His own generation in Matthew 12:43-45 that all the devils which He had cast out of them would return once again in seven-fold numbers of devils more wicked than before. This would render the condition of that generation of Israelites more miserable in their "last state" than they had experienced in their "first state" while Christ and His disciples were among them casting out devils from the people in every city.

It was demonic oppression of the people of Israel that made this an unprecedented period of tribulation in that generation before the close of AD 70.

Where do you get your gnostic information from? Is there a website?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Are you saying that Jesus won't literally return? You know, if the horse isn't literal nor the sword...why then is the second coming literal?

Of course Christ's return was going to be a literal bodily return, just as He left this planet. We are in agreement on that. But this need not include Jesus literally riding a white horse and having a metal sword protrude out of His mouth. Those are literary devices meant to portray Christ coming as the leader in victorious battle against His foes, with the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). And yes, the "rapture" fits that description. A "rapture" that has already been fulfilled, as Christ predicted for that first-century generation in Matthew 16:27-28 and elsewhere.

Where do you get your gnostic information from? Is there a website?

What does gnosticism have to do with my specifically quoting Matthew 24:21? "For then shall be great tribulation, SUCH AS was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The phrase "worse than" does not appear anywhere in this verse at all. You are only one of many who think this has to be an unprecedented, ultimate number of physical deaths happening at this time or a superior degree of gore, disease, or bloodshed involved. The language of this verse does not require that. It speaks of a certain KIND or TYPE of tribulation "SUCH AS" never happened before and would never occur afterward.

 

[EarlyActs]

So, Jesus deliberately deceived everyone by saying immediately, but didn't mean it? I believe there is a delay in that everything Jesus said about a great tribulation has yet to occur. For instance, it is supposed to be worse than any tribulation that Israel has ever faced, and the first century pales in comparison to the Holocaust. Just think, even that wasn't it. So how much worse is this tribulation going to be than the first century? Everyone dies. However, God, being merciful, shortens the time so that some/all His elect still alive at the end survive. I don't remember almost all the population of the whole world being wiped out in the first century, do you? Or was it just Jerusalem? It it is just Jerusalem, it doesn't fit Jesus own description. This is why I bring up the time of the Gentiles. This is why I say that the ones God does not want to perish in II Peter are the elect. There are still people who God has chosen to be His who have not been brought in yet. This is what Peter uses to explain why God is not being slack with His promise, but is keeping His promise to His elect. Consider that if everything ended in the first century, consider all the elect who would be lost. Consider the impact on God's nature that He chose a bunch of people who would never live.

The terms and directness of Mt24A prohibit us from viewing it as our future. The term "the end" even has some variation: the end of Dan 9? The end of Judaism? The end of the Jewish age prior to the times of the Gentiles? All this must be considered.

As for a delay, there is no deception if he says a few verses later that 'only the Father knows.' If only the Father knows, he is confusing us by opening his mouth at all. He is allowing for a delay.

Mk 13's parable of 4 options of the time of the Master's return also allow for a delay, AKA a later option.

2 P 3: in order to save the elect, there has to be more people generally. What is your point? What I am saying is that I do not know of anything else to which to attach the delay mentioned there than the final day of judgement--he's saying the same thing he heard in Mt 24 and he's saying it because a delay needs to be explained.

One reason, in terms of Dan 9, why this is already an issue for Peter is that the ordinary reading of Dan 9 would make us think that its "the end" would take place no more than 3.5 years after the cutting off of Messiah. He wrote 2 P 3 after that, facing mockers. They were likely mocking that it had been longer than 3.5. It may be that Peter adjusted what he said to that generation, which makes 70 so significant. It would be interesting to know when the letter of Hebrews hit the Christian world with its dire comparison of its generation and the ancient Sinai one. It means that that generation was equally decisive, which we already know from Acts 3:23.

The historian Lattourrette writes that when 72 passed by and nothing cosmic happened the remaining disciples simply continued on in evangelism, because 'all bets were off.'

 

[EarlyActs]

So, Jesus deliberately deceived everyone by saying immediately, but didn't mean it? I believe there is a delay in that everything Jesus said about a great tribulation has yet to occur. For instance, it is supposed to be worse than any tribulation that Israel has ever faced, and the first century pales in comparison to the Holocaust. Just think, even that wasn't it. So how much worse is this tribulation going to be than the first century? Everyone dies. However, God, being merciful, shortens the time so that some/all His elect still alive at the end survive. I don't remember almost all the population of the whole world being wiped out in the first century, do you? Or was it just Jerusalem? It it is just Jerusalem, it doesn't fit Jesus own description. This is why I bring up the time of the Gentiles. This is why I say that the ones God does not want to perish in II Peter are the elect. There are still people who God has chosen to be His who have not been brought in yet. This is what Peter uses to explain why God is not being slack with His promise, but is keeping His promise to His elect. Consider that if everything ended in the first century, consider all the elect who would be lost. Consider the impact on God's nature that He chose a bunch of people who would never live.

I doubt if there is any intention to consider the 'world' greater than the known Roman world, or the 17 countries referenced in Acts 2. If you make Mt 24A's direct instructions compare to the Holocaust, it gets out of whack, because Mt 24A (like Mt 10--some of the same language) are about believers in Judea and nearby. The punishment of the Jewish War event, says Luke (Paul) several times, is upon Israel for refusing to work in the true vineyard, the mission of the Gospel. This is a simple matter of political logic, not some dark view of God's anger.

 

[CrowCross]

Of course Christ's return was going to be a literal bodily return, just as He left this planet. We are in agreement on that. But this need not include Jesus literally riding a white horse and having a metal sword protrude out of His mouth. Those are literary devices meant to portray Christ coming as the leader in victorious battle against His foes, with the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). And yes, the "rapture" fits that description. A "rapture" that has already been fulfilled, as Christ predicted for that first-century generation in Matthew 16:27-28 and elsewhere.

Once again...the rapture hasn't been fulfilled. There is nothing in the bible that presents that it has been fulfilled nor anything in history.

What does gnosticism have to do with my specifically quoting Matthew 24:21? "For then shall be great tribulation, SUCH AS was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The phrase "worse than" does not appear anywhere in this verse at all. You are only one of many who think this has to be an unprecedented, ultimate number of physical deaths happening at this time or a superior degree of gore, disease, or bloodshed involved. The language of this verse does not require that. It speaks of a certain KIND or TYPE of tribulation "SUCH AS" never happened before and would never occur afterward.

There is nothing wrong with quoting scripture....the problem arises when you add to scripture in your gnostic style.

In your above statement you left out...to this time. There hasn't been a tribulation that has happened yet or such as will happen.
You have been given numerous scripture from Revelation of events that haven't happened yet. Numerous!!! Are they all white horses?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Once again...the rapture hasn't been fulfilled. There is nothing in the bible that presents that it has been fulfilled nor anything in history.

There absolutely is content in the Bible that presents a first-century return of Christ to gather the saints. And archaeological evidence as well. Just not your particular view of what that rapture was to include.

There is nothing wrong with quoting scripture....the problem arises when you add to scripture in your gnostic style.

There is nothing "gnostic" about a bodily return of Christ in the first century to gather all the bodily-resurrected saints to Himself. And there is nothing "gnostic" about the physical and spiritual effects caused by Christ's Matthew 12:43-45 prediction of the seven-fold increase of devils that would descend upon that wicked first-century generation in Judea during its "last state". Utter mayhem was the result: a tribulation never to be duplicated like that again in the future in any other nation or time since then.

 

[CrowCross]

There absolutely is content in the Bible that presents a first-century return of Christ to gather the saints. And archaeological evidence as well. Just not your particular view of what that rapture was to include.

All I read from you is claims. Unsupported claims.

There is nothing "gnostic" about a bodily return of Christ in the first century to gather all the bodily-resurrected saints to Himself. And there is nothing "gnostic" about the physical and spiritual effects caused by Christ's Matthew 12:43-45 prediction of the seven-fold increase of devils that would descend upon that wicked first-century generation in Judea during its "last state". Utter mayhem was the result: a tribulation never to be duplicated like that again in the future in any other nation or time since then.

WOW. All these years and you seem to be the only ne talking about it.

If what you claimed actually happened then theolgy would be steeped in it. You should be looking up.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All I read from you is claims. Unsupported claims.

It's all there predicted in the scriptures, but most will miss these texts. Or misunderstand them. Or ignore them. Or mock them. These responses to scripture are nothing new, even in Christ's day with the words coming out of His mouth directly into the ears of His audience.

If what you claimed actually happened then theolgy would be steeped in it.

Actually, the institutional church over the centuries has had a vested interest in keeping a fearful, cowed group of followers believing the party line - keeps the income flowing into the coffers. An informed, searching group of believers who are Bereans checking out everything they are taught for validity compared to the scriptures is not usually encouraged. Challenges to the status quo are not typically welcomed.

And I would hardly call this website of some 183 members a huge cross-section of all who discuss the scriptures. I am certainly not the only one talking about these things. There is, after all, nothing new under the sun.

 

[RR144]

What does Jesus want His disciples to learn from this parable. If you see signs in a fig tree, you know summer is near.

Let's see ... in Matthew 24:32-34, Jesus gave a very important sign. “Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Throughout the Bible we learn that the fig tree represents the Nation of Israel (Jeremiah 24:1-10; 29:17-23; Luke 13:6-9). Leaves sprouting on a tree are an evidence that the tree has sprung to life after a dormant winter. Jesus was actually telling us that when we see Israel come alive as a nation — after being without a homeland for nearly 2,000 years — then we will know that God’s Kingdom is right at the door.

Has Israel put forth leaves? Yes, most definitely. After the Roman conquest in the First Century B.C., Israelites as a people were dispersed among all nations, often persecuted bitterly, having to live in Ghettos, then hunted and exterminated as undesirables. Yet Jewish hopes remained strong in God’s promises of a return to their homeland. “Next year in Jerusalem” was their cry. This hope was fulfilled in one of the great miracles of our day. The fig tree, Israel, put forth leaves in May 1948 when once again it became a nation after thousands of years without a homeland. God has done no such thing with any other nation.

Luke adds something in his account of this prophecy that makes our faith even stronger: “Behold the fig tree, and all the trees... when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand.” (Luke 21:29-31) Notice that Luke adds “and all the trees.” If the fig tree pictures Israel, then all the trees would refer to other nations. Luke is telling us that, together with Israel springing to life, many other nations would put forth leaves, sprouting into existence. And what does history tell us? For centuries, up to 1945, the number of independent nations in the world had remained relatively constant at around 70. However, since 1945 the number of independent nations has grown dramatically to 196 nations! More than 126 new independent nations have sprung into being that were previously held as colonies. This ties in closely with the time that Israel became a nation in 1948.

Thus Israel, simultaneously with 126 other nations, has put forth leaves, sprouting into existence. What a thrill to our hearts to realize that we are on the very brink of the greatest event in all human history — the establishment of God’s Kingdom!