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The MOTHER of All Sin....

Indulge me.

Indulge me for a moment by reminding me again of your denominational/sectarian orientation. please. Thx

Hi Thanks

I was born again in a what is called non denomination church .Plymouth Brethren (more than one kind. .

In that way without denomination sects called heresies Christ spoke not Two or three the smallest number a family or nation that gather together is under the hearing of Christ faith (understanding )

In that way there must be differences (sect heresies families ) as long as they do not do despite the fullness of grace. the complete cost of salvation. Making the idea of limbo purgatory without effect

Each denomination has it own personal format that can differ . protecting the integrity of the word of God so that men do not puff up the apostles above all things written in the law and prophets a Catholics doctrine . . . .take away the power of the living word give it to dying mankind

1 Corinthians 11:19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2: 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things. Isaiah 45
Yes, the correct translation that expreses the poetic parallelism correctly.
 
So, you think God literally wants people to cut off their hands and poke out their eyes? When Paul wrote he wished the disruptors in Galatia would emasculate themselves that was God literally advocating self-castration? When Isaiah asks, "Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" or "Is there not a lie in my right hand?" that's not rhetorical? Or how about, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" Do you think that's a serious question asked without jest?

Yes, and when He means to be rhetorical, He's deliberately rhetorical in His meaning.

Assumes rhetorical indicates change. Fail.

Assumes rhetoric is not straight. Fail.

That explains a lot.


The Bible is filled with rhetorical content inspired by God. When He asks Job if Job can command the sun or the moon, or if he knows how to loose or constrain the stars God is not asking a question to which God does not already knows the answer. Neither is He asking Job to answer such questions. They were ALL asked of Job to make Job realize his finitude.
You're still looking at something spiritual from the letter perspective. Makes me wonder whether you can discern spiritual things as a born-again believer can.

And you presume too much when there's nothing there.
God was not being rhetorical with Job. He was being literal.
But if you want to take a literal question on ability and make it rhetorical then have at it.
Good luck with that. Interacting with you in the past was always a negative experience. Your attitude has not always been pleasant. And since you've never apologized after offending me, I prefer to keep you at arm's length and minimize my responses to your comments. There is a spirit about you that always comes across offensive and insincere, qualities that no true born-again believer would be expressing if their relationship with God was sincere. Personally, there is something spiritually wrong about you and your profession to Christ. I wonder if you pray and labor before the Lord because a person that does pray and seek God with tears is usually humble and has a quiet spirit and one that come across as gentle and meek. Yours is aggressive, offensive, and one that ridicules. You always 'talk' down to others as though you or your knowledge is superior. If what's in a person's heart comes out of their mouths, or in this case, keyboard, I don't think I'd enjoy hanging out with you.
In person or on post.
 
Why would an "all knowing" God have to ask that question?

The question was rhetorical in nature.
If you take your position to its reasonable conclusion, they why would God even interact with us at all.
"All knowing" to a dead man is a waste of time. Even if that man was alive.
 
I would think the moment a spirit leaves there flesh both are dead The temporal spirit returning to the father the flesh to the dust .

Like in dying (70 to 80 years) you are already dead.

The gospel our living God giving new spirit life to the dead


Isaiah 8:19:20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them
Relevance to the op?

We're discussing a digression. The op is about the (false) premise the doctrine of the "fall" is the "Mother of all sin," by which the op has also argued the origin of all sin. While I suspect that was not the intent, that is what the posts assert. Not only is that claim incorrect, but the alternative is also built on an error, the premise God created Adam and Eve sinful. That is the only reason I went back to the creation account. It is necessary to prove A&E were NOT created sinful. Subsequent death and what happens to the spirit are not germane.
 
I suppose it's possible but there it nothing to suggest that he wouldn't eat of the tree of life, and possibly he would not have died had he not disobeyed, regardless of not eating of the tree of life.
I agree but that argument from silence works both ways. There is nothing to indicate either of them would have eaten from the tree of life. It's a bit of a stretch but I might, on a more "devil's advocate" day, argue there is some smidgeon of evidence to say they would not have eaten from the tree of life: We have no idea how much time passed between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:6 but we do know some period of time had transpired because Adam had names all the animals and the angelic rebellion had ensued during that interim. We know Adam and Eve had not eaten during that period of time because God would not have been able to say Genesis 3:22. So.... speculatively, we could argue Adam would not have eaten because he had not eaten even though he had plenty of opportunity to do so.

Whether or not that's a valid argument, I do think their individual and mutual neglect of the tree of life is important because there is context. The story is always one of eating one thing and not another; knowingly eating what brings death instead of what brings life (while in a good and sinless undeceived state).
Death is the penalty for sin.
Yes, but Adam and Eve were made mortal. That means they were going to die any way. The tree of life might make them live forever, but that has nothing to do with the way they were made. Yes, God may have wanted them to eat from the tree of life the elect doing so was an inevitability but that has nothing to do with the way they were created. They were created to die. If Hebrews 9:27 is applicable, then they were created to die once (not twice or thrice) and then face judgment (and I've already covered the various options therein). The death that is the penalty of sin is eternal destruction. The death that occurs absent the penalty of sin is eternal life. Both die. Death is necessarily entailed either way. The only way anyone can have immortality, or eternal life, is to eat the fruit of the tree of life and that fruit just so happens to entail death, resurrection, and transformation in Jesus! Either way a person dies. There is no coming to the Father but through Jesus (the tree of life). There is no "by Jesus" other than through his life, death, resurrection, and ascension. There is no resurrection without death (Enoch is the exception to the rule, not the rule), and there is no death without first having lived.

A person lives, then dies, and then - if he has eating of the tree of life - he is resurrected incorruptibly and immortally to eternal life.

The alternative is..... a person lives and then - if he has eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - from which all have eaten, he is resurrected but NOT raised incorruptibly and immortally. He gets tossed in the fiery lake for eternal torturous death atop death atop death (dead physically, dead sinfully, and dead fiery lake-ally ;).

Either way it was appointed for man to die once. For all we know the tree of life might have killed Adam and then he'd have been raised for his obedience! Sheer speculation, I know.
Death is the penalty for becoming corrupted and being corrupt, and not having God dwell with us as He did in the garden.
Well, it's important to main consistent context. God made Adam mortal and called it good. That implies physical death is NOT a penalty. I, for one, although I will miss my current life, my wife and children, the adventures God has for me here, I look forward to the day when I see and know as I am seen and am known, to no longer have the aches and pains inherent in this life. Death is a good thing, and it would be an even better thing had I never sinned.

So physical death in a good, unashamed, sinless, in-Christ state is a blessing, not a penalty. Likewise, although I and everyone else has experienced the temporal penalties of sin which resulted in being dead in sin, because some of us have eaten from the tree of life we will be raised from death so, again, physical death is a blessing - a release from the deadly effects of sin.

Being dead in sin is not identical to physical death. Prior to out coming to Christ we were all dead in sin but still physically alive. Sin did not physically kill anyone. There are several different kinds of death in scripture (physically dead, dead in sin, dead in Christ, etc.). To use the word "death" in a way that does not accurately discriminate between these very different types of death is a mistake.
In any case---the Bible does not tell us.
Not explicitly. However, in most cases context is informative, and the newer revelation informs us in ways the older revelation did not. Even though the scriptures always implied a life existed after death, that was not the prevailing view in Judaism. This disparity is one of the many examples of what I mean when I say, "Tanakh is always correct, but Judaism was often incorrect."
Immanuel. God with us. That is the relationship that is being restored through redemption. And it is right now, not yet, for the believer.
AND..... it requires death. Two deaths, in fact (maybe three depending on how one looks at it).

  • Dead physically.
  • Dead in Christ.
  • Dead to sin.

In flesh alone death is a penalty. In Christ, death is a blessing, not a penalty. Adam and Eve had the opportunity to choose a good, unashamed, sinless death in the tree of life, the perfect sacrifice foreknown before Adam and Eve ever drew breath and they chose not to do so. It was not because they were made sinful.

I trust you'll understand, but the discussion is getting afield of the op and that's not how I like to do threads. The op argues the doctrine of the "fall" is the "Mother of all sins," further asserting it is the origin of sin. That is absurd. The op builds its dissent on the position God made A&E sinful. That too is absurd, blatantly contrary to scripture. Scripture explicitly tells us Adam and Eve were made good, unashamed, sinless, and mortal and Gen. 1:31 implies their mortality was a good thing, not sinful.
 
You're still looking at something spiritual from the letter perspective.
Incorrect and untrue. The fact is the op asserts falsehoods overtly contrary to what is plainly stated in scripture and....
Makes me wonder whether you can discern spiritual things as a born-again believer can.
..turning away from scripture to fallaciously assert ad hominem makes things worse, not better. I could be the most depraved godless man on the planet but that would not change a single word of scripture. The op asserts God created Adam and Eve sinful but that contradicts the facts of scripture in many places, and those scriptures are not being discussed. God declared Adam and Eve good. God inspired Paul to further reveal sin did not enter the world until Adam disobeyed God. The irony is a choice exists in this thread: discuss the op or ignore the op and attack others fallaciously. Do good or do bad. Just like in Eden. The only difference is Adam and Eve were not sinful prior to their disobeying God and everyone since than has been born with the effects of their actions (as has been described by many posters previously in this thread).
And you presume too much when there's nothing there.
Refusing to discuss the mistakes of this op and presuming ad hominem is a reasonable and rational argument when it is not is the problem.
God was not being rhetorical with Job. He was being literal.
Scripture says otherwise.
...........Yours is aggressive, offensive, and one that ridicules. You always 'talk' down to others as though you or your knowledge is superior. If what's in a person's heart comes out of their mouths, or in this case, keyboard, I don't think I'd enjoy hanging out with you.
In person or on post.
How ironically hypocritical. Let me know when you are ready to discuss the fact God stated Adam and Eve were good and sinless instead of creating them sinful. Let me know when that conversation can be had without mentioning me or any other poster at all. Until then, thank you for your time but Post 43 is abusive, and I will not collaborate with that.
 
I agree but that argument from silence works both ways. There is nothing to indicate either of them would have eaten from the tree of life. It's a bit of a stretch but I might, on a more "devil's advocate" day, argue there is some smidgeon of evidence to say they would not have eaten from the tree of life: We have no idea how much time passed between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:6 but we do know some period of time had transpired because Adam had names all the animals and the angelic rebellion had ensued during that interim. We know Adam and Eve had not eaten during that period of time because God would not have been able to say Genesis 3:22. So.... speculatively, we could argue Adam would not have eaten because he had not eaten even though he had plenty of opportunity to do so.

Whether or not that's a valid argument, I do think their individual and mutual neglect of the tree of life is important because there is context. The story is always one of eating one thing and not another; knowingly eating what brings death instead of what brings life (while in a good and sinless undeceived state).

Yes, but Adam and Eve were made mortal. That means they were going to die any way. The tree of life might make them live forever, but that has nothing to do with the way they were made. Yes, God may have wanted them to eat from the tree of life the elect doing so was an inevitability but that has nothing to do with the way they were created. They were created to die. If Hebrews 9:27 is applicable, then they were created to die once (not twice or thrice) and then face judgment (and I've already covered the various options therein). The death that is the penalty of sin is eternal destruction. The death that occurs absent the penalty of sin is eternal life. Both die. Death is necessarily entailed either way. The only way anyone can have immortality, or eternal life, is to eat the fruit of the tree of life and that fruit just so happens to entail death, resurrection, and transformation in Jesus! Either way a person dies. There is no coming to the Father but through Jesus (the tree of life). There is no "by Jesus" other than through his life, death, resurrection, and ascension. There is no resurrection without death (Enoch is the exception to the rule, not the rule), and there is no death without first having lived.

A person lives, then dies, and then - if he has eating of the tree of life - he is resurrected incorruptibly and immortally to eternal life.

The alternative is..... a person lives and then - if he has eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - from which all have eaten, he is resurrected but NOT raised incorruptibly and immortally. He gets tossed in the fiery lake for eternal torturous death atop death atop death (dead physically, dead sinfully, and dead fiery lake-ally ;).

Either way it was appointed for man to die once. For all we know the tree of life might have killed Adam and then he'd have been raised for his obedience! Sheer speculation, I know.

Well, it's important to main consistent context. God made Adam mortal and called it good. That implies physical death is NOT a penalty. I, for one, although I will miss my current life, my wife and children, the adventures God has for me here, I look forward to the day when I see and know as I am seen and am known, to no longer have the aches and pains inherent in this life. Death is a good thing, and it would be an even better thing had I never sinned.

So physical death in a good, unashamed, sinless, in-Christ state is a blessing, not a penalty. Likewise, although I and everyone else has experienced the temporal penalties of sin which resulted in being dead in sin, because some of us have eaten from the tree of life we will be raised from death so, again, physical death is a blessing - a release from the deadly effects of sin.

Being dead in sin is not identical to physical death. Prior to out coming to Christ we were all dead in sin but still physically alive. Sin did not physically kill anyone. There are several different kinds of death in scripture (physically dead, dead in sin, dead in Christ, etc.). To use the word "death" in a way that does not accurately discriminate between these very different types of death is a mistake.

Not explicitly. However, in most cases context is informative, and the newer revelation informs us in ways the older revelation did not. Even though the scriptures always implied a life existed after death, that was not the prevailing view in Judaism. This disparity is one of the many examples of what I mean when I say, "Tanakh is always correct, but Judaism was often incorrect."

AND..... it requires death. Two deaths, in fact (maybe three depending on how one looks at it).

  • Dead physically.
  • Dead in Christ.
  • Dead to sin.

In flesh alone death is a penalty. In Christ, death is a blessing, not a penalty. Adam and Eve had the opportunity to choose a good, unashamed, sinless death in the tree of life, the perfect sacrifice foreknown before Adam and Eve ever drew breath and they chose not to do so. It was not because they were made sinful.

I trust you'll understand, but the discussion is getting afield of the op and that's not how I like to do threads. The op argues the doctrine of the "fall" is the "Mother of all sins," further asserting it is the origin of sin. That is absurd. The op builds its dissent on the position God made A&E sinful. That too is absurd, blatantly contrary to scripture. Scripture explicitly tells us Adam and Eve were made good, unashamed, sinless, and mortal and Gen. 1:31 implies their mortality was a good thing, not sinful.
A lot to think about, none of which I discount out of hand, or at all as to being possible. I just haven't gone that far down that road, but I don't see anything stated that is in opposition or inconsistent to what we are given.
 
You're still looking at something spiritual from the letter perspective. Makes me wonder whether you can discern spiritual things as a born-again believer can.

And you presume too much when there's nothing there.
God was not being rhetorical with Job. He was being literal.
But if you want to take a literal question on ability and make it rhetorical then have at it.
Good luck with that. Interacting with you in the past was always a negative experience. Your attitude has not always been pleasant. And since you've never apologized after offending me, I prefer to keep you at arm's length and minimize my responses to your comments. There is a spirit about you that always comes across offensive and insincere, qualities that no true born-again believer would be expressing if their relationship with God was sincere. Personally, there is something spiritually wrong about you and your profession to Christ. I wonder if you pray and labor before the Lord because a person that does pray and seek God with tears is usually humble and has a quiet spirit and one that come across as gentle and meek. Yours is aggressive, offensive, and one that ridicules. You always 'talk' down to others as though you or your knowledge is superior. If what's in a person's heart comes out of their mouths, or in this case, keyboard, I don't think I'd enjoy hanging out with you.
In person or on post.
Keep the posts about the posts and not the poster. But as @Josheb said, quite the ironic post since I just read one by you in another thread saying you were looking forward to a mass slaughter (massacre as you stated) by Jesus, of all "Gentile Christians." That the idea excites you.

For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die To Atone?​

post #45
 
Keep the posts about the posts and not the poster. But as @Josheb said, quite the ironic post since....
Post 43 is ironically hypocritical because it is NOT...
...humble and has a quiet spirit and one that come across as gentle and meek.
...but instead is...
....aggressive, offensive, and one that ridicules. You always 'talk' down to others as though you or your knowledge is superior.
...and...
If what's in a person's heart comes out of their mouths, or in this case, keyboard....
...then Post 43 shows what's in its author's heart.
I don't think I'd enjoy hanging out with you. In person or on post.
Which is irrelevant and explains a lot, but the discussion of this op is not about me, him, you, Fred, Ethel, Bert, or Ernie. This op is about the premise the fall doctrine is the mother of all sin and whether or not God created Adam and Eve sinful. I can be the most arrogant, condescending, aggressive, offensive, ridiculing, hated person in the world and still be correct.... or incorrect.

Genesis 1:26, 31
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..... God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God created Adam and Eve good. The opening post states the opposite.
..............This also supports what I had been saying for a very long time and that is that God created Adam and the woman sinful, that is, "missing the mark".
Scripture clearly states otherwise.
And the doctrine of a "Fall" of man? It was a lie. It was the Mother of ALL sin.
A seriously flawed case leads to a seriously flawed conclusion and that has nothing whatsoever to do with....
I don't think I'd enjoy hanging out with you. In person or on post.
🙁

Proverbs 27:7 KJV
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Luke 6:44-45
For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Makes perfect sense. I'm held in contempt and therefore treated contemptuously. Don't care. Scriptures says Adam and Eve were made very good. The op says otherwise. The premise of God's glory is valid, but misapplied. The good, unashamed, sinless Adam and Eve were God's glory, and their good, sinless, and unashamed existence di glorify Him - especially in contrast to the serpent. They were God's glorifying glory all the way up to that moment when they weren't. As I previously posted, we do not know how much time transpired between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:6 but at was some length of time - during which Adam and Eve hit the mark.

So we see a third problem exists in the op: the problem of neglecting what transpired between Gen 1:26 and 3:6 and assuming it all fell short of God's glory. There's no evidence to that effect. Everything God made was good and sinless and we know that because scripture explicitly states that AND God does not call evil good. Enough time transpired between Gen 1:26 for God to take a day off and rest. Enough time transpired for Adam to name all the animals. Enough time transpired for an angel to become prideful and arrogant and then deceive and (mis)lead others into rebellion. Enough time transpired for the rebellion to be put down, and rebels bound, and the serpent, the devil, to be cast down to earth under the rule of the good, unashamed, and sinless Adam and Eve. Unless the trees were made already laden with fruit (something Genesis 1:11 implies was not the case) then an entire growing season had transpired because there was fruit on the trees.

No mention of sin in the garden at all during that time.

The op assumes the occurrence of disobedience necessarily indicates God made Adam and Eve sinful and that is a seriously flawed and egregiously scripture-contradicting failure in logic.

Three errors have been cited. There are others, but we can and should take them one at a time. These mistakes can and should be discussed in a manner consistent with Proverbs 15, Ephesians 4:25-32, or Romans 12:9-21 whenever possible. Why? Because whether I am persuaded I have made a mistake or the op is thusly persuaded.....

Psalm 133:1-3
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, coming down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard, coming down upon the edge of his robes. It is like the dew of Hermon coming down upon the mountains of Zion; for there the LORD commanded the blessing — life forever.

Exactly as He had commanded in Eden.

Genesis 1:31, 2:8-9
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day...................... The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It was good and pleasing for them to dwell together in unity all the way up until that moment when there was no unity. Adam and Eve were not created sinful.
 
If you take your position to its reasonable conclusion, they why would God even interact with us at all.
"All knowing" to a dead man is a waste of time. Even if that man was alive.
I would offer we must be careful how we hear, who and what we say we hear,

Who would serve a prejudiced God and call that unity of the Holy Spirit of Christ ?

The Holy Spirt defines the word he inspires others to write .

A Jew is not one outwardly but inwardly spiritually one inwardly born again

No praise to dying mankind rather than the invisible head

Some say they hear or understand by venerating the flesh of dying mankind .Other seek after the invisible Holy Father .

Believer's seek after sola scriptura the living authority of Emmanuel with his children ..Seeking after the flesh

The idea of venerating the flesh of dying mankind above that which is written sola scriptura is a oral tradition of dying mankind .it makes the living word of God without .cant see the flesh and the invisible head. . . .Christ

I would think build each other and up not puff up one against another. As new creatures we do not have to wrestles against flesh and blood dying mankind

1 Corinthian 4:6-y And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written,(sola scriptura) that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Its is why he makes mankind different so they do not play king of the hill or the greatest Alfa Dog
 
Relevance to the op?

We're discussing a digression. The op is about the (false) premise the doctrine of the "fall" is the "Mother of all sin," by which the op has also argued the origin of all sin. While I suspect that was not the intent, that is what the posts assert. Not only is that claim incorrect, but the alternative is also built on an error, the premise God created Adam and Eve sinful. That is the only reason I went back to the creation account. It is necessary to prove A&E were NOT created sinful. Subsequent death and what happens to the spirit are not germane.
I did not said he created mankind sinful .He created and subjected them to the letter of law, Death. Thou shall not.

When Eve touched it both died Both deceived by the same false prophecy (neither shall you touch it) The lust of the flesh lust of the flesh the two building blocks of false pride Both deceived by the King of false pride.

1 John 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Mathew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Proverbs 6:25-26 New International Version (NIV)Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes. For a prostitute can be had for a loaf of bread, but another man's wife preys on your very life.
 
I did not said he created mankind sinful .
No, but the op does.
He created and subjected them to the letter of law, Death. Thou shall not.

When Eve touched it both died Both deceived by the same false prophecy (neither shall you touch it) The lust of the flesh lust of the flesh the two building blocks of false pride Both deceived by the King of false pride.

1 John 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Mathew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Proverbs 6:25-26 New International Version (NIV)Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes. For a prostitute can be had for a loaf of bread, but another man's wife preys on your very life.
Yes, perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the claim A&E were made sinful and the doctrine of the fall being the mother of all sin.
 
He made us...He loves us...He wants to save us.

Do you need more reasons?
Does he really?
I know He wants to and will save Israel. But let's see his attitude towards the Gentile nations:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

But towards Israel God says:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:25–27.

What Gentiles have done since the destruction of the Jewish Temple is believe God had cast away His people, but Saul says, "God forbid!"
Another thing Gentiles did was take everything belonging to Israel because of their perceived idea God cast away His people, and without any Scripture, began to take over what belonged to Israel. By the time Gentiles began to gather scrolls to identify what believers should not give up and die for, they made a bible. Many scrolls were considered. Many scrolls were accepted and many discarded and so we had for a time to rely on their judgment. No doubt some scrolls were worthy of inclusion but if they didn't support the Gentile cause they were not included. Romans, which seems to say Gentiles are included in the Hebrew covenants was kept. But would Saul really contradict Genesis 17:6-7? No, he wouldn't.
Then the Dark Ages, the Catholic church, Anglicans, Reformation, all this Gentile history and such hardening of Gentile doctrine about everything that belonged to Israel. Israel, "the apple of God's own eye" was ignored but here we are in the 21st century and the Jews are back in their land and their prophecies are being fulfilled before our very eyes.
And the one thing that should give Gentile's pause is Jesus' return with armies from heaven to judge and make war against WHO? Israel? NO! Against Gentiles. And Scripture says He fights alongside Israel against Gentiles. Personally, I think since there is no rapture and Gentiles will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble alongside Israel that when the truth of Israel's eternal covenant with God and the fact Gentiles has NO COVENANT, they will join forces with the Gentile nations in which they live and fight Israel.
But the truth is out of the bag and when the truth matures then we will see how it all plays out. After all, Gentiles have this arrogance that they have the corner market on salvation but wait until they see and learn that the salvation that is of the LORD is a salvation that is OF THE JEWS.
 
Does he really?

I have a simple answer...Yes.
I know He wants to and will save Israel. But let's see his attitude towards the Gentile nations:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

But towards Israel God says:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:25–27.

What Gentiles have done since the destruction of the Jewish Temple is believe God had cast away His people, but Saul says, "God forbid!"
Another thing Gentiles did was take everything belonging to Israel because of their perceived idea God cast away His people, and without any Scripture, began to take over what belonged to Israel. By the time Gentiles began to gather scrolls to identify what believers should not give up and die for, they made a bible. Many scrolls were considered. Many scrolls were accepted and many discarded and so we had for a time to rely on their judgment. No doubt some scrolls were worthy of inclusion but if they didn't support the Gentile cause they were not included. Romans, which seems to say Gentiles are included in the Hebrew covenants was kept. But would Saul really contradict Genesis 17:6-7? No, he wouldn't.
Then the Dark Ages, the Catholic church, Anglicans, Reformation, all this Gentile history and such hardening of Gentile doctrine about everything that belonged to Israel. Israel, "the apple of God's own eye" was ignored but here we are in the 21st century and the Jews are back in their land and their prophecies are being fulfilled before our very eyes.
And the one thing that should give Gentile's pause is Jesus' return with armies from heaven to judge and make war against WHO? Israel? NO! Against Gentiles. And Scripture says He fights alongside Israel against Gentiles. Personally, I think since there is no rapture and Gentiles will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble alongside Israel that when the truth of Israel's eternal covenant with God and the fact Gentiles has NO COVENANT, they will join forces with the Gentile nations in which they live and fight Israel.
But the truth is out of the bag and when the truth matures then we will see how it all plays out. After all, Gentiles have this arrogance that they have the corner market on salvation but wait until they see and learn that the salvation that is of the LORD is a salvation that is OF THE JEWS.
 
I have a simple answer...Yes.
Who is in the covenant with Abraham? His seed.
Who does God make covenant with while in the desert through Moses? The Children of Israel.
Who does Jeremiah say the New Covenant is with? The House of Israel.
So, say the same thing as God. That's what Christians are commanded to do.

Anything in the New Testament, if it contradicts these truths of the Old Testament that I've asked above then such interpretations and/or messengers from God must be rejected.
And I know Saul will not break Scripture to say or teach Gentiles in the Hebrew Covenants when the answers above prove they are not.
 
No, but the op does.

Yes, perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the claim A&E were made sinful and the doctrine of the fall being the mother of all sin.
I would think it has something to do with it false prophecy coming from the strange woman (the father of lies)

The doctrine of the fall adding to the word (neither shall you touch it, authored by the strange woman (Lucifer)

Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
 
I have a simple answer...Yes.
"He made us, He loves us, He wants to save us."

The simple answer is to identify the "us" and it is not Gentiles, at least not Gentiles that do not have the seed (DNA) in any amount from Abraham, as Jesus' interactions and words towards the Samaritan woman at the well bear this out. She was of mixed parentage (Jew-and-Gentile, most likely the offspring of a northern kingdom tribe and Assyrian.)

The Old Testament was written by Hebrews of various origins, but still Hebrew and descendants of Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13). It documents Yahweh's relationship with two groups of people until the Abrahamic Covenant - obedient family line, and disobedient family line.
The command to separate and fill the earth was obviously obeyed in time by a man named Salah (Gen. 11.) It appears he "crossed over" [the Jordan River - although not named as such in his day] and separated his family from the rest of the Adamites that chose to remain in a group (Genesis 10 recounts this early time and individuals that figure prominently.) To commemorate this "crossing over" to separate his family from the rest of the grouped disobedient Adamites he named his son, Eber, which means "crossed over" and in later Hebrew theology the name also came to be identified with the "Hebrew" people born from Eber of which Abram is born.

Beginning with Abram, an obedient worshiper of God (men 'called' upon the LORD), God made a covenant with Abram that was promised to be inherited by his seed, directly to Isaac and then Jacob, and then to Jacobs twelve sons and their families, all the offspring of Abraham. Along with this covenant, which came with a prophecy of becoming slaves of a foreign people (Egyptians) God in time delivered His covenant people from their bondage through a man named Moses. While in the desert God enlarged the covenant with Abraham and did so with his descendants, a people known as the children of Israel (Jacob.) For a people that only knew shades of their culture as generations of children were born that knew not God this people knew only Egyptian culture and laws and after the older generations died off and a new, younger generation witnessed what God had done to the Egyptians and God's provision of this enormous population of people of over three million men, women, and children, God finally gave His Laws to them of their treatment of God and their living among this enormous population of people called the children of Israel (Jacob.) After Moses' passing new Hebrew history was being written that recounts God's giving of a portion of the land promised to Abraham as well as His relationship with them, the rest of Hebrew history is documented in what we today call the Old Testament. Until Jesus, the last identified prophet God sent to then Hebrews was Malachi, and four hundred years later Israel's Promised Redeemer/Deliverer/Savior finally arrived in the Person named "Jesus (the Messiah/Christ.)"

This individual was the fulfillment of prophecy that although finds first mention in Genesis and again in Deuteronomy 18, hundreds of years passed, and more prophetic information was given to Israel through her prophets sent to them by God that when systematically understood in whole pointed to identifying this promised Redeemer when He did come on the scene. The gospels all recount Israel's history, their culture, important Hebrew people, the politics and religion of the Hebrew people, and is basically testimony from four individuals that either knew this Redeemer personally or received first person accounts to not only identify Him through His life and events, but so that the children of Israel would come back to God and receive everything God promised the Hebrews beginning with Abraham, which promise later written and prophesied by various Hebrew prophets also identified this Messiah's work towards not only physical or natural salvation, but one of a more eternal and spiritual nature. Jesus Messiah would be the Personal representative of God Himself, and a Person Israel was prophesied of eventually heeding and obeying and live under God's commands and Law. Jesus Messiah it would later come to be understood by Hebrews was the fulfillment of a New Covenant, one that begins, and ends, and begins again through His life and the fulfillment of the Mosaic Covenant which prefigured the sacrificial system of worship, and all bound up in Him, a sacrifice prophesied to and for the children of Israel in accordance with the Mosaic Laws.

There is abounding information in the Hebrew writings we call the Old Testament that concerns one people, and that one people are identified as the children of Israel and God's dealing with them which make up 37 'books' of our today's bible. Everything in these 'books' speak of much Hebrew history, religion, culture, prophecies, etc., of God's relationship with this one people and Messiah's eventual effect upon the previous covenants and what went before. There is no other family of people that can claim from God what God Himself has claimed for Himself, and that is a people wrapped up in God's history as well as the history of one people called the Hebrews ("Jews") and the promises from God to this one people that culminated in their eventual eternal salvation through God Himself in the Person of Jesus Messiah, a man identified as the "Son of God." And this Son was sent TO and FOR the Hebrew people that were existing under covenant promises of God and no other people on the face of the earth can show the history and the promises between themselves and the God of the universe except one people, a people which we call today the "Jews."

So, the identity of "He made us....He loves us....He saves us" can only mean the "us" as identified through the Hebrew writings as the Children of Israel.
There are no other people on earth that can claim the Who (God) and His prominent relationship with the "us" (seed of Abraham) also known as the children of Israel, and since this people ONLY have promises and covenants given to them from God, we can now identify the "us" and what God's relationship to this people means to them.

In other words, "God made Israel....God loved Israel....God saves Israel."

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deuteronomy 7:5–9.

So, let's keep it biblical and truthful. God has covenant with Hebrews. God has no covenant with non-Hebrews (Gentiles.)
None.
 
Who is in the covenant with Abraham? His seed.
Who does God make covenant with while in the desert through Moses? The Children of Israel.
Who does Jeremiah say the New Covenant is with? The House of Israel.
So, say the same thing as God. That's what Christians are commanded to do.

Anything in the New Testament, if it contradicts these truths of the Old Testament that I've asked above then such interpretations and/or messengers from God must be rejected.
And I know Saul will not break Scripture to say or teach Gentiles in the Hebrew Covenants when the answers above prove they are not.
There is now a better covenant. It's not that the New Testament contradicts but rather fulfills.
 
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