The Kingdom of God on Earth in Jerusalem.

[Eleanor]

And where does that holiness come from?

Moving the goal posts here?

It was about no one is holy but God.

Now it's about where the holiness in someone other than God comes from.

 

[Bro.Tan]

The bible speaks of three heavens….It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:1-2), so which one would the saints go to anyway? Jesus was talking about the third heaven when he said, "...no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.." This means Elijah or no other man (except Jesus) has went up to the heaven where the Father's throne is at.

Many of us, including Elijah, have been transported through the second heaven, which is the sky. This heaven is called the firmament, where airplanes and birds fly. The first heaven is the earth. This is where Jesus will establish his heavenly kingdom. Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel of the kingdom and pray for its fulfillment. It is impossible to preach the Gospel of Jesus without ever preaching about his future kingdom.

Everything, including our hope, is tied into this gospel message. If we choose to believe contrary to the gospel then we are believing a lie. Remember, "the truth shall make you free." There's only one gospel! "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). This is serious business, so let us preach and pray "THY KINGDOM COME!" This is the gospel of Jesus.

 

[Marilyn C]

Moving the goal posts here?

It was about no one is holy but God.

Now it's about where the holiness in someone other than God comes from.

Eleanor you were saying -

The root of the tree are the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The trunk of the tree is Jesus, proceeding from the roots.
The branches of the tree are those in the trunk (Christ), the people of God.

I was pointing out that Jesus is the root that is holy, nourishes us and supports us. None other can do that.

 

[Eleanor]

Eleanor you were saying -

The root of the tree are the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The trunk of the tree is Jesus, proceeding from the roots.
The branches of the tree are those in the trunk (Christ), the people of God.

I was pointing out that Jesus is the root that is holy, nourishes us and supports us. None other can do that.

Ro 11 is not about branches being nourished as on the vine.

It is about the composition of God's NT people, represented by a batch of dough or an olive tree.
Prosecuting the metaphor of the olive tree, the text presents the branches on the tree, cut off from the tree, grafted into the tree.
In botany, branches are attached to trunks, not roots.
It is the trunk that is attached to the roots.

The tree is a metaphor of God's NT people, where the patriarchs are their beginning (roots),
and branches (people of God) are cut off from as well as grafted into the tree.
Those branches are cut off from and grafted into the trunk of the tree, not the roots of the tree.
And that trunk is Christ, who proceeds from the roots (patriarchs) and in whom are the branches (God's people).

 

[Marilyn C]

Ro 11 is not about branches being nourished as on the vine.

It is about the composition of God's NT people, represented by a batch of dough or an olive tree.
Prosecuting the metaphor of the olive tree, the text presents the branches on the tree, cut off from the tree, grafted into the tree.
In botany, branches are attached to trunks, not roots.
It is the trunk that is attached to the roots.

The tree is a metaphor of God's NT people, where the patriarchs are their beginning (roots),
and branches (people of God) are cut off from as well as grafted into the tree.
Those branches are cut off from and grafted into the trunk of the tree, not the roots of the tree.
And that trunk is Christ, who proceeds from the roots (patriarchs) and in whom are the branches (God's people).

`For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Where does it say in God`s word that the patriarchs are our beginning?

Where does it say that the patriarchs support us?

We need to remember that Christ is `the Root and Offspring of David.` (Rev. 22: 16)

 

[Eleanor]

`For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Where does it say in God`s word that the patriarchs are our beginning?

The patriarchs are the beginning (roots) of God's one olive tree, the people of God, the NT church of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40), going all the way back to Abraham.

The context of Ro 11:16 is its meaning.
And that context is Paul's vindication of God's righteousness in the rejection of his own people (chps. 9-11), where he shows
that God's
1) rejection is not total, he is saving a remnant (11:1-10),
2) rejection is not final, IF they do not persist in unbelief (11:11-24),
3) purpose ultimately is mercy to the remnant (11:25-36, 9:27, 11:5).

In Ro 11:11-24, where he shows that rejection is not final, Paul rhetorically asks if God had no other purpose in rejecting Israel than their destruction. His response is no, the purpose of their rejection was salvation of the Gentiles.
The one olive tree of God's people, from which Israel has been cut off and the Gentiles grafted in, is still God's holy tree,
going all the way back to Abraham, God's tree beginning in its roots, the holy patriarchs (not apostate as is israel), and
whose branches are the people of God.

Where does it say that the patriarchs support us?

In botany, roots do not support branches, the trunk supports the branches.
The roots are the basis for the trunk, which is the basis for the branches.

Paul is using "roots" here to denote the origin of, and source of nourishment for, the tree, not as structural support.

We need to remember that Christ is `the Root and Offspring of David.` (Rev. 22: 16)

"The Root" means Messiah (Isa 11:1, 10). Christ is the Messiah and Offspring of David.

 

[EarlyActs]

What is the gospel of Jesus? Is it merely the news that he was born in a manger? Is it confined to the miracles and healing Jesus did while walking the earth? Maybe it's simply the news of his death and resurrection? Well, all of these things are a part of the gospel, but the good news that Jesus preached is much more "... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God" (Mark 1:14). This is the gospel of Jesus. Nowadays many fail to preach the gospel of God's kingdom. Why? The bible teaches that Satan has deceived the whole world (Revelation 12:9). Jesus said that many would come preaching in his name and yet deceive many (Matthews 24:5). This is why pastors everywhere claim to be fulfilling the great commission (spreading the gospel all over the world), but never mention the coming of God's kingdom. Therefore, many people are deceived and have not heard the gospel of Jesus. Instead they hear and believe another gospel, which teaches that they are going to heaven. This is not the gospel of Jesus!

All over the bible, from the promise to Abraham in Genesis to the second coming of Jesus in Revelation, the Lord reveals that his kingdom will be on earth. This message is supposed to be good news to us, especially considering the condition of the world. We should be glad to know that God is going to straighten out the trouble and confusion that's presently in the world. Jesus even told us to pray for the fulfillment of his gospel, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10). Jesus also warned us to repent (turn from our sins) and be prepared for the coming of his kingdom. If we truly believe the gospel, then we will obey God's commandments. "...The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9).

However, Jesus said the… Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5). Now why in the world would the meek want to inherit the earth if God is supposed to take us to heaven? Maybe the meek are not so blessed after all?! Yes, the meek are blessed because they will be on the earth, in God's kingdom. "...but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth" (Proverbs 10:30). Therefore, repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15). Jesus never promised to take us to heaven. As a matter of fact Jesus said that no man went up to heaven except he (speaking of himself) that came down from heaven (St. John 3:13). Jesus promised us we would dwell with him on the earth. That's right, Jesus is returning to establish the kingdom of God. If we have faith and obey him, we will rule with him on the earth, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

do you distinguish between this present earth and the NHNE?

 

[EarlyActs]

The patriarchs are the beginning (roots) of God's one olive tree, the people of God, the NT church of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40), going all the way back to Abraham.

The context of Ro 11:16 is its meaning.
And that context is Paul's vindication of God's righteousness in the rejection of his own people (chps. 9-11), where he shows
that God's
1) rejection is not total, he is saving a remnant (11:1-10),
2) rejection is not final, IF they do not persist in unbelief (11:11-24),
3) purpose ultimately is mercy to the remnant (11:25-36, 9:27, 11:5).

In Ro 11:11-24, where he shows that rejection is not final, Paul rhetorically asks if God had no other purpose in rejecting Israel than their destruction. His response is no, the purpose of their rejection was salvation of the Gentiles.
The one olive tree of God's people, from which Israel has been cut off and the Gentiles grafted in, is still God's holy tree,
going all the way back to Abraham, God's tree beginning in its roots, the holy patriarchs (not apostate as is israel), and
whose branches are the people of God.

In botany, roots do not support branches, the trunk supports the branches.
The roots are the basis for the trunk, which is the basis for the branches.

Paul is using "roots" here to denote the origin of, and source of nourishment for, the tree, not as structural support.


"The Root" means Messiah (Isa 11:1, 10). Christ is the Messiah and Offspring of David.

what do you think of the I Pet 2 line which has believers as the chosen people, the royal priesthood?

 

[Bro.Tan]

do you distinguish between this present earth and the NHNE?

According the Bible it's written in Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So we see that the NHNE is in new Jerusalem, but let's get an idea what it may look like. Let's go into Matthew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

So the earth will be done like it is in heaven. So yes it will be different.

 

[Eleanor]

what do you think of the I Pet 2 line which has believers as the chosen people, the royal priesthood?

Chosen people are the elect, as Jacob (Israel) and his descendants were the elect (Ro 9:10-12) for God's purposes in the OT.

Royal priesthood are those in Christ, the royal High Priest from the line of King David, offering their bodies as living (rather than dead animal) sacrifices in spiritual worship (Ro 12:1) and offering spiritual sacrifices (1 Pe 2:5) of praise, the fruit of their lips (Heb 13:15).

 

[EarlyActs]

According the Bible it's written in Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So we see that the NHNE is in new Jerusalem, but let's get an idea what it may look like. Let's go into Matthew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

So the earth will be done like it is in heaven. So yes it will be different.

In the details of the NHNE, you may notice that there is not the same physical realities as we have now: God is the light; Christ is the temple; there may not be human bodies; there is no marriage.

But all that is in the future. Can you describe the kingdom that is now at work?

 

[EarlyActs]

Chosen people are the elect, as Jacob (Israel) and his descendants were the elect (Ro 9:10-12) for God's purposes in the OT.

Royal priesthood are those in Christ, the royal High Priest from the line of King David, offering their bodies as living (rather than dead animal) sacrifices in spiritual worship (Ro 12:1) and offering spiritual sacrifices (1 Pe 2:5) of praise, the fruit of their lips (Heb 13:15).

The NT consistently teaches that the same faith was back there; Abraham saw Christ's day (in the stars) and rejoiced that it was coming. That is how the Gospel was preached to so many back then. Daniel made sure the Chaldeans around him understood. That's why it was so hideous for Israel to think there were other gods in the stars (see the prophets and Stephen in Acts 8).

"Count the stars" is actually to compute/reckon/read them for their message. It is a play on the term 'reckon' in which God 'read' Abraham's faith about that and considered him righteous. They had astrolabes that could show movement and see the message coming in the Bethlehem star.

Believers are in the royal priesthood and David saw the resurrection of Christ coming as His enthronement, which Acts 2-4 say it is.

 

[Eleanor]

The NT consistently teaches that the same faith was back there; Abraham saw Christ's day (in the stars) and rejoiced that it was coming. That is how the Gospel was preached to so many back then. Daniel made sure the Chaldeans around him understood. That's why it was so hideous for Israel to think there were other gods in the stars (see the prophets and Stephen in Acts 8).

"Count the stars" is actually to compute/reckon/read them for their message. It is a play on the term 'reckon' in which God 'read' Abraham's faith about that and considered him righteous.

If I may comment here.

The word "impute" means to account to, ascribe to, reckon to.
God imputed (accounted, ascribed) righteousness to Abraham because of his faith (Ge 15:6 Ro 4:3).

They had astrolabes that could show movement and see the message coming in the Bethlehem star.

Believers are in the royal priesthood and David saw the resurrection of Christ coming as His enthronement, which Acts 2-4 say it is.

 

[EarlyActs]

If I may comment here.

The word "impute" means to account to, ascribe to, reckon to.
God imputed (accounted, ascribed) righteousness to Abraham because of his faith (Ge 15:6 Ro 4:3).

Yes we agree; I did say the same. Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced; and that is what he believed, Gal 3. When used in the sense of reading the stars, think: 'what does this all amount to?' (Jupiter the king going into the sector for Israel and one other (it escapes me just now) meant the king of the world was going to be born in Israel and be a bridge or path from man to God. See Larson THE BETHLEHEM STAR doc, and THE NATIVITY 2008, BBC drama, a very careful re-enactment of the Babylonian school of astronomy.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes we agree; I did say the same. Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced; and that is what he believed, Gal 3. When used in the sense of reading the stars,

Where is imputed used in the sense of reading the stars, or am I misunderstanding you?

think: 'what does this all amount to?' (Jupiter the king going into the sector for Israel and one other (it escapes me just now) meant the king of the world was going to be born in Israel and be a bridge or path from man to God. See Larson THE BETHLEHEM STAR doc, and THE NATIVITY 2008, BBC drama, a very careful re-enactment of the Babylonian school of astronomy.

 

[Bro.Tan]

In the details of the NHNE, you may notice that there is not the same physical realities as we have now: God is the light; Christ is the temple; there may not be human bodies; there is no marriage.

But all that is in the future. Can you describe the kingdom that is now at work?

I agree, but I'll let you describe the kingdom that is now at work, with scriptures and verses.

 

[EarlyActs]

I agree, but I'll let you describe the kingdom that is now at work, with scriptures and verses.

I'm not aware of a page in the gospel narrative that does not confirm its presence; it is Jesus' activity and the community it creates. In Acts 2 he is enthroned and the kingdom continues on.

It is a realm where God/Christ is king; he reigns. Obviously there are 'nations that rage against the Lord and His Christ.'

When John the B announced that he was a voice crying in the wilderness from Isaiah, it is language from a king's traveling entourage; 'make the preparations for the arrival of the king, etc.' And then the King came.

 

[Marilyn C]

In botany, roots do not support branches, the trunk supports the branches.
The roots are the basis for the trunk, which is the basis for the branches.

Paul is using "roots" here to denote the origin of, and source of nourishment for, the tree, not as structural support.


"The Root" means Messiah (Isa 11:1, 10). Christ is the Messiah and Offspring of David.

So how are the Patriarchs as the `root` our origin and nourishment?

 

[Eleanor]

So how are the Patriarchs as the `root` our origin and nourishment?

See post #26.

"Root" does not have the same meaning in every metaphor. It depends on its use in the metaphor.

In one metaphor root it is a term for Messiah, in another a term for the beginning people of God.
In one metaphor, Jesus is the branch, in another he is the vine.

 

[Marilyn C]

See post #26.

"Root" does not have the same meaning in every metaphor. It depends on its use in the metaphor.

In one metaphor root it is a term for Messiah, in another a term for the beginning people of God.
In one metaphor, Jesus is the branch, in another he is the vine.

But I asked - So how are the Patriarchs as the `root` our origin and nourishment?