The Invitation System and the Altar Call

[JIM]

I don't think it causes confusion to say that faith/belief comes as a result of God's grace. It fits with what Paul writes in Ephesians 2 where he repeatedly says that salvation is all of God's grace.

Faith/belief in God is not an infused gift as some would claim. It does not come in regeneration. Salvation is not monergistic. So, yes, I think saying that faith/belief comes as a result of God's grace, while not wrong, can be confusing. And that confusion is demonstrated by Calvinistic soteriology.

Yes, salvation is all of God's grace, but it is salvation, not grace, that is the gift specified in Ephesians 2. The grace in Ephesians 2:8 is not speaking it as a gift. Rather, I believe, it is speaking of God's attribute of graciousness. Theologically the term “grace” has three basic connotations. It can refer to the gift of salvation, that which is given; it can refer to the system of salvation, the manner in which the gift is received; or it can refer to that attribute in God’s nature that makes it all possible. I believe that the reference to grace in Ephesians 2:8 concerns this last one, grace in the sense of God’s graciousness. Grace is the most extreme expression of God’s love when it comes face to face with sin. Grace is God’s willingness and desire to forgive and accept the sinner in spite of his sin, to give the sinner the very opposite of what he deserves.

 

[David Lamb]

Faith/belief in God is not an infused gift as some would claim. It does not come in regeneration. Salvation is not monergistic. So, yes, I think saying that faith/belief comes as a result of God's grace, while not wrong, can be confusing. And that confusion is demonstrated by Calvinistic soteriology.

Well, as a believer in the doctrines of grace, I don't think that Calvinistic soteriology demonstrates confusion. But I know Christians differ on these things. Thanks for replying.

 

[JIM]

Well, as a believer in the doctrines of grace, I don't think that Calvinistic soteriology demonstrates confusion. But I know Christians differ on these things. Thanks for replying.

Personally, I think it is worse that confusion; I think it is wrong. Fortunately for all of us, one can be both wrong and saved.

 

[David Lamb]

Personally, I think it is worse that confusion; I think it is wrong. Fortunately for all of us, one can be both wrong and saved.

Thank you for your good-hearted post. So oft, when two people disagree on a particular point of doctrine, the posts tend to become bitter and far from Christian. Thanks again.

 

[Mr GLee]

Faith/belief in God is not an infused gift as some would claim. It does not come in regeneration. Salvation is not monergistic. So, yes, I think saying that faith/belief comes as a result of God's grace, while not wrong, can be confusing. And that confusion is demonstrated by Calvinistic soteriology.

Yes, salvation is all of God's grace, but it is salvation, not grace, that is the gift specified in Ephesians 2. The grace in Ephesians 2:8 is not speaking it as a gift. Rather, I believe, it is speaking of God's attribute of graciousness. Theologically the term “grace” has three basic connotations. It can refer to the gift of salvation, that which is given; it can refer to the system of salvation, the manner in which the gift is received; or it can refer to that attribute in God’s nature that makes it all possible. I believe that the reference to grace in Ephesians 2:8 concerns this last one, grace in the sense of God’s graciousness. Grace is the most extreme expression of God’s love when it comes face to face with sin. Grace is God’s willingness and desire to forgive and accept the sinner in spite of his sin, to give the sinner the very opposite of what he deserves.

The New Living Translation defines it power of God the best.

Faith is the "let there be power". that works in those born from above. testified by it was good.

Ephesians 2:8 NLT God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

Most do not recognize the faith or power of Christ (let there be) as it is written by the finger of Chrsit

Christ the one source of faith is written is never alone . Let there be and the work of faith, Christ labor of love "alone is good" .

The power to will and to do .

Ephesians 2:8 King James Version For by grace are ye saved through faith; (Christ) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

According to his powerful "let there be" and "it was good" faith power

Then one can faithfully as a work compare the spiritual understanding in Ephesian 2 to James 2.

James 2:1 NLV My Christian brothers, our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord of shining-greatness. Since your trust is in Him, do not look on one (dying ) person as more important than another.

James 2:1 KJ21 My brethren, have not the faith of (Power coming from) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect to dying mankind.

 

[JIM]

The New Living Translation defines it power of God the best.

Faith is the "let there be power". that works in those born from above. testified by it was good.

Ephesians 2:8 NLT God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

Most do not recognize the faith or power of Christ (let there be) as it is written by the finger of Chrsit

Christ the one source of faith is written is never alone . Let there be and the work of faith, Christ labor of love "alone is good" .

The power to will and to do .

Ephesians 2:8 King James Version For by grace are ye saved through faith; (Christ) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

According to his powerful "let there be" and "it was good" faith power

Then one can faithfully as a work compare the spiritual understanding in Ephesian 2 to James 2.

James 2:1 NLV My Christian brothers, our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord of shining-greatness. Since your trust is in Him, do not look on one (dying ) person as more important than another.

James 2:1 KJ21 My brethren, have not the faith of (Power coming from) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect to dying mankind.

Faith has no power. It is God who has the power to say those who believe in Him.

 

[Carbon]

Oh, I can see regeneration and justification in the passage.
I don't agree with your definition of conversion, but that is a different subject.

How is that a different subject than what we are discussing? If you would, give your definition or understanding of conversion. Because it seems you're just trying to avoid it.

But I absolutely do not see your concept of election in that passage; and that because it is not there.

Well sure it is. Or, at least how it works among God's people. Look at Romans 10:9-10 again.

There is nothing in Romans 10 that speaks about any of TULIP -- nothing.

You are right, it does not mention TULIP. Very observant.

> In Calvinism, faith comes not by hearing but by being regenerated.

If we are going to discuss this, let's be honest with each other. Say something like, you do not believe in Calvinism: faith comes not by hearing but by being regenerated.
But stop telling me what Calvinism teaches because you obviously do not know.

Romans 10 rejects that. To be saved is to be regenerated, justified and (initially) sanctified; thus, to be regenerated is to be saved.

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10.

You see Jim, (that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ) . . .
Now, I believe we both agree that the external call precedes the infusion of new life (regeneration). So, the external call, not only follows the act of regeneration but also precedes it in point of time. So, to be sure, the operation of the Holy Spirit upon the heart in regeneration is an act which is impossible to understand and escapes our notice. Consider John 3:8, The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
And since regeneration takes place below the seat of consciousness, we cannot state the definite time of rebirth. But we can know how it is done at least partly.
If you believe it is through prevenient grace, you have a lot of proving to do, and I say you cannot, as scripture teaches no such thing.

The external call and prevenient grace are not taught in scripture for salvation. One has to have a knowledge of who Christ is, if there is no knowledge of Christ in a man's mind, the new life cannot function. To exercise faith in Christ would be an utter impossibility if there is no knowledge of Christ.

It never comes down to man as to whether or not the (prevenient) grace God has given him with actually save him. If that were the case, man's actions would have the determining effect of bringing him into the kingdom.
In God's word, there is no such thing as a saving (prevenient) grace of God, which prepares man to make a decision for salvation.
God's saving grace is always efficacious. It never touches a person without bringing him into actual contact with Jesus Christ and making him a partaker of His salvation.

So, consider vs: 10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Only when a man is regenerated, with the heart he believes, resulting in righteousness. Being a new man in Christ, he realizes it and confesses Christ, hence - conversion.

Blessings

 

[Carbon]

I don't agree with your definition of conversion,

I'll be waiting for your definition of conversion. I'm interested in how you understand it.


Thanks

 

[makesends]

Faith is the fundamental requirement or condition for being saved. It is not the only one, but it certainly is the critical one. And that comes by hearing the word of God (the word about Christ) not from regeneration. Regeneration is one aspect of being saved. Justification and (initial) sanctification are two other aspects of being saved. All occur at the same instant in time in the life of the repentant believer. To be saved is to be regenerated, justified and (initially) sanctified and that comes through faith which comes by hearing.

What I asked was, "PLEASE explain, how Romans 10 makes it clear that believing and confessing are requirements for becoming saved." Notice the word, "BECOMING", in that request. You say they are requirements, but for BEING, not for BECOMING. Even supposing you have made your point that they are requirements for BEING saved, you have not shown how one becomes saved, when, as it says two chapters earlier (in addition to Romans 10 about an obstinate people), that the mind of the unregenerate is unable to submit to the law, nor even to please God. That is context. So is the rest of Romans, where we read over and over that the unregenerate is AT ENMITY with God. If you think that salvific faith does not please God, demonstrate it. Yet you continue with the notion that the unregenerate ARE able to produce salvific faith, and, apparently, on their own, to cease hostilities toward God.

(Also consider that God has not ceased hostilities toward his enemies.)

When anyone hears the Gospel in the one sense —that is, 'in the flesh'— and not in the sense of hearing it in the Spirit, they still do not "have ears to hear". I know it is hard for you to understand that, because to you (apparently), there is no difference spiritually in the lost and the saved except in degree —not in category.

Notice the beginning of verse 14 of Romans 10; after declaring in verse 13 that every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, Paul asks: "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?" I read you claiming (to @Carbon ) that Romans 10 says nothing about TULIP. I'm seeing Total Depravity out the ying-yang in Romans 10.

For now I won't argue whether believing and confessing are requirements for BEING saved. That can wait.

You need to show how they are requirements for BECOMING saved. The two things —being, and becoming— are not the same thing.


Occurs to me to add, concerning your conversation with @Carbon , that Reformed theology and TULIP are not one and the same thing. The Gospel is not TULIP, nor does Reformed doctrine teach that it is. It is just an easy and eye-opening commentary in opposition to Arminianism, that is backed up in Romans 10 and the rest of Romans, and in fact, the rest of the Bible. I have many relatives who are adamantly opposed to Calvinism, who admit to all of TULIP, except for "Limited Atonement". You are an outlier in this matter. Most believers who have tried living for the Lord have well experienced their inability, even as believers, to do anything good, apart from God doing it in them. They just don't know how to justify what they have been taught with what they have experienced there.