The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[Hobie]

....Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem." These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.

The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 1618) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord."... https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1983-2/1983-2-10.pdf

Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise and history shows it, so it wasn't changed by them.....

 

[Hobie]

And the Antichrist entity documented the purpose themselves in the Lateran IV calling for the extermination of these faithful believers..

CANON 3​

Text. We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues....But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith..

CANON 5​

Summary. The council approves the existing order of the patriarchal sees and affirm, three of their privileges: their bishops may confer the pallium and may have the cross borne before them, and appeals may be taken to them.
Text. Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree with the approval of the holy and ecumenical council, that after the Roman Church, which by the will of God holds over all others pre-eminence of ordinary power as the mother and mistress of all the faithful, that of Constantinople shall hold first place, that of Alexandria second, that of Antioch third, and that of Jerusalem fourth, the dignity proper to each to be observed; so that after their bishops have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the distinguishing mark of the plenitude of the pontifical office, and have taken the oath of fidelity and obedience to him, they may also lawfully bestow the pallium upon their suffragans, receiving from them the canonical profession of faith for themselves, and for the Roman Church the pledge of obedience. They may have the standard of the cross borne before them everywhere, except in the city of Rome and wherever the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of Apostolic dignity is present. In all provinces subject to their jurisdiction appeals may be taken to them when necessary, saving the appeals directed to the Apostolic See, which must be humbly respected.

CANON 7​

Summary No custom or appeal shall hinder prelates from correcting abuses and reforming the morals of their subjects. If the chapter neglects to correct the excesses of the canons, it shall devolve upon the bishop to do so. Prelates shall not use this statute as means of pecuniary gain.
Text. By an irrefragable decree we ordain that prelates make a prudent and earnest effort to correct the excesses and reform the morals of their subjects, especially of the clergy, lest their blood be demanded at their hands. But that they may perform unhindered the duty of correction and reform, we decree that no custom or apeal shall stand in the way of their efforts, unless they shall have exceeded the form to be observed in such cases.... Let the prelates of the churches, therefore, be diligently on their guard that they do not convert this salutary decree into a means of personal profit or other objectionable conduct, but let them enforce it earnestly and faithfully if they wish to escape canonical punishment, for in this matter the Apostolic See, on the authority of the Lord, will be most vigilant.

Here is clear that the church at Rome, in the Pontiff, takes on the Antichrist entity character, saying it has what is basically that which is of God to persecute and take over the church in all aspects and regions, something which is not give in the Bible. But the Antichrist power which the Protestant reformers identified as the beast of Revelation and the little horn power of Daniel that was foretold to do these things.

Revelation 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This Antichrist power, history shows, came in the form of the Papacy, and this power came out of Rome and continued its politico-religious influence for the time foretold and even after Napoleon took it down with his general Berthier, it healed of its wound as foretold, and has come back and is here today.

 

[ChristB4us]

The thing is, it doesnt say the believers will not be shaken and persecuted and hunted down to be killed by the Antichrist power.

Granted, since the pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His House first by excommunicating those saints found not abiding in Him nor willing to go because they love this world or are overcharged by the cares of this life that they do not want to leave, is why they and new believers as of result of the rapture event, will be hunted by the beast to kill by the sword or by hunger since the believers will not have the mark to buy & sell to survive in the coming great tribulation.

So yes, saved believers found in iniquity & former believers left behind and after the rapture, new believers will be persecuted by the beast.

 

[ChristB4us]

I think it is clear from history that Sunday has nothing to do with the Sabbath, even after the resurrection the disciples continued with the Sabbath as it was before and Christ tells it it would continue so you have to really twist scripture to fit Sunday as the day of worship. It just isnt there.......Here is a good explanation by by Kenneth A. Strand in The Sabbath in Scripture and History:

Have you tried holding a Christian service in a Jewish synagogue? You would be spat upon and tossed out, if not killed for being disrespectful & blasphemy.

All those references in Acts was when the disciples were ministering to the Jews in the synagogues. The Jews have a practice where someone visiting the synagogue would read from the scriptures. Jesus did this as recorded.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

That was what His disciples were doing for outreach ministry. They were not holding a Christian service at all in those Jewish synagogues.

Below is an example and if not carefully read, one may confuse verse 19 when he met with disciples in Damascus with verses 20-23 for when Paul went to the synagogues to preach Christ to the Jews that did not believe in "this" name of Jesus in how they sought to kill Paul.

Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? 22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. 23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

"...The word Sunday is not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

I believe the first day of the week is when they celebrated and held actual Christian worship service by & for the believers.
Please address this scripture below as it confirms that the first day of the week was when they held Christian services.
1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Paul was giving this order to all the churches to set aside a portion from their collection after church service for the support of the ministry as he did not want any special collection done for missionaries les they give the appearance of covetousness.

2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: 2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. 3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.

5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Paul was careful to point out as believers should only give because they want to & that it is between them and God; not the church, thereby nulling and voiding tithes and pledges of giving in verses 6-8 as the church should be looking to God to provide by raising up cheerful givers.

Kind of hard for a pastor & a church to preach trusting in God to provide if they look to members to tithes and keep their pledges to give. That would be another example of faith without works that James was talking about in James 2nd chapter where the church was purposefully trying to get out of helping the poor by just issuing a parting benediction that God will provide for the poor without leading by example to the poor by meeting their immediate needs of those poor about to perish from starvation and the elements. That was the church's faith in God's Providence that requires example for which James was rebuking the church for doing that as the church's faith will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor seeing how the church is failing to lead by example to the poor.

Anyway, feel free to explain this order that Paul was giving to all churches on the first day of the week as I say that was when they held service.

 

[Hobie]

Granted, since the pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His House first by excommunicating those saints found not abiding in Him nor willing to go because they love this world or are overcharged by the cares of this life that they do not want to leave, is why they and new believers as of result of the rapture event, will be hunted by the beast to kill by the sword or by hunger since the believers will not have the mark to buy & sell to survive in the coming great tribulation.

So yes, saved believers found in iniquity & former believers left behind and after the rapture, new believers will be persecuted by the beast.

So are you saying John Hus, William Tyndell, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the other Reformers were 'not abiding in' Christ... And we see how they were 'hunted by the beast' and persecuted and killed, so thats already come..

 

[ChristB4us]

So are you saying John Hus, William Tyndell, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the other Reformers were 'not abiding in' Christ... And we see how they were 'hunted by the beast' and persecuted and killed, so thats already come..

Were John Hus, William Tyndell, Martin Luther, & John Calvin and all other Reformers living in the great tribulation where one has to have the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell to survive and not just being hunted down by the beast to kill with the sword?

 

[Hobie]

Were John Hus, William Tyndell, Martin Luther, & John Calvin and all other Reformers living in the great tribulation where one has to have the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell to survive and not just being hunted down by the beast to kill with the sword?

Try and be hunted and persecuted and burnt at the stake and be drawn and quartered and tortured by so many devices, they are hard to count, and see if you call it a little bit of 'tribulation', it was worse than you can imagine..

The exact number of Christians murdered for their faith during the Middle Ages is unknown, but most historians agree that for over 1200 years the Roman Catholic Church persecuted and killed Christians who would not agree with their traditions and style of worship. William Tyndale was charged with heresy and burnt alive, and what was his sin? He translated the Bible into English, such was the terror of allowing truth and evil of this apostate church that kept Gods Word from being given to the faithful. To say nothing of the others who were tortured, imprisoned and killed or put to trial with the sentence already decided, or forced to recant under threat of death. You can see the prophetic “time, times and half a time,” 42 months, and 1260 days are all the same time period pointing to this time during the Dark Ages the Papacy ruled with incredible terror and death on those who strivd to follow Gods truth.

History shows how the Roman Catholic Church rise to power and supremacy started in 538 AD when emperor Justinian gave the pope the title Pontifex Maximus, the "Bridge builder between heaven and Earth", and established the papacy as the supreme Christian power. All this abruptly ended in 1798 when Napoleon’s army took Pope Pius VI captive and weeks later died. That is exactly 1260 years and we see it fulfilled just as foretold.

However, the prophecy says that the deadly wound will heal, and sure enough in 1929, Mussolini agreed to return the papal seat and power. Since then the Vatican became a political and religious power that still makes the world wonder after it, as we see today.

 

[ChristB4us]

Try and be hunted and persecuted and burnt at the stake and be drawn and quartered and tortured by so many devices, they are hard to count, and see if you call it a little bit of 'tribulation', it was worse than you can imagine.. https://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/the-horrors-of-the-church-and-its-holy-inquisition/

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation as they are not one & the same.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is the tribulation in these latter days that you & I are living in where keeping the faith is the good fight.

Matthew 24;14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That everlasting gospel is preached by that first angel to all the world after the rapture event and then the end comes by that fall of Babylon USA for why the third angel warns everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming new world order is the lake of fire, thereby those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth. Revelation 14:1-12

That means none of those saints you had mentioned has truly gone through that "great tribulation that is coming as mentioned below when USA is gone and the need for a peace treaty with Israel to convince them not to launch her nukes is by allowing them to build that third Temple and then that period of the great tribulation begins when that command is given allowing them to build that Temple, and it is not fully realized until that son of perdition reveals himself in that Holy of Holies. .

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So no. None of those saints you have listed went through that "great tribulation" but the everyday tribulation you & I are living in now.

 

[Hobie]

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation as they are not one & the same.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is the tribulation in these latter days that you & I are living in where keeping the faith is the good fight.

Matthew 24;14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That everlasting gospel is preached by that first angel to all the world after the rapture event and then the end comes by that fall of Babylon USA for why the third angel warns everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming new world order is the lake of fire, thereby those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth. Revelation 14:1-12

That means none of those saints you had mentioned has truly gone through that "great tribulation that is coming as mentioned below when USA is gone and the need for a peace treaty with Israel to convince them not to launch her nukes is by allowing them to build that third Temple and then that period of the great tribulation begins when that command is given allowing them to build that Temple, and it is not fully realized until that son of perdition reveals himself in that Holy of Holies. .

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So no. None of those saints you have listed went through that "great tribulation" but the everyday tribulation you & I are living in now.

The only thing we have left is the Seven Last Plagues which will be the time such as never was and it will be of the duration comparable to the plagues of Egypt. So, we are in the last days now, and yet Christians dont see the spreading and absolute shaking of the social, economic and religious aspects of the world being torn apart and so absorbed in the world that they dont discern how close we are to Christ and His Second Coming or the signs that have already appeared.

Revelation 16:1-17
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The Seven Last Plagues will be as Christ comes and it will be beyond anything before but of a short time as Christ brings His angels from heaven.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
We see the aftermath as the plagues come and God declares the end which is His Second Coming.

Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

[Hobie]

So the final time of tribulation is during this short period of the plagues and the Second Coming we shall see the Antichrist power establish a global system in an attempt to control the beliefs of people. This system is what will decide who has the Mark of the Beast on the head or hand, and will mirror the horribly time during the medieval Christianity under papal control.

People of all social classes and levels will be pressured to receive the mark of the beast on the right hand (what they do) or the forehead (what they believe) so they have a identifying mark. So by they do will they show who they worship and be judged, and just as the seal in the forehead identifies those whom God regards as His, so the mark of the beast identifies the worshipers of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:8
And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
The mark of the beast is not a visible sign and its placement on the right hand or on the forehead counterfeits the instruction that Moses gave the Israelites to bind God’s law as a sign upon their hands or their foreheads. The right hand has to do with behavior, while the forehead has to do with the mind or mental agreement. Some will choose to receive the mark of the beast to go along with what others do or escape the threat of death, while others will be fully committed mentally and spiritually to this apostate system of worship from the Antichrist power.

So at the end, it will be worship and obedience to God that will show who they follow/believe which is judged by there keeping Gods commandments. The Mark of the Beast involves the substitution of a human commandment for God’s commandment. There is a marked contrast as we are seeing even today, between those who bear the seal of God and are His followers, and those who worship the beast and his image, who gets its power from evil, the devil himself who is what they are truly worshiping, just as foretold.

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[ChristB4us]

The only thing we have left is the Seven Last Plagues which will be the time such as never was and it will be of the duration comparable to the plagues of Egypt. So, we are in the last days now, and yet Christians dont see the spreading and absolute shaking of the social, economic and religious aspects of the world being torn apart and so absorbed in the world that they dont discern how close we are to Christ and His Second Coming or the signs that have already appeared.

Revelation 16:1-17

The Seven Last Plagues will be as Christ comes and it will be beyond anything before but of a short time as Christ brings His angels from heaven.

None of the plagues has happened yet since this is to be poured out in the great tribulation on those with the mark of the beast to buy & sell.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
We see the aftermath as the plagues come and God declares the end which is His Second Coming.

Revelation 16:18-21 is referring to when Babylon USA will fall. Scripture originally did not come with numbered chapters & numbered verses and certain events in Revelation are not given in chronological order, but He can help us to see the order of events by that fall of Babylon USA.

The rapture event can be seen in revelation 14:1-5 of the testimony of out of those raptured, are the 144,000 honest virgin men that were "redeemed" from the earth that will make up His personal choir in Heaven that follow Him where ever He goes. This is not to signify they were the only ones raptured but to signify out of those raptured, who made up His personal choir.

Then in Revelation 18:6-7 is after the rapture that the first angel with the everlasting gospel will spread it all over the world so all the remaining on the earth will know the gospel and have no excuse not to know it.

And then the end comes ( Matthew 24:14 ) as signified by that fall of Babylon which sets the stage for the coming New World Order and the coming great tribulation When the 2nd angel heralds the fall of Babylon USA in Revelation 14:8 as started in Revelation 16:18-21 and Revelation 17 is describing what that Babylon is and then Revelation 18 describes that judgment on Babylon USA with the left behind saints found dead in her as a plague is found in her also for why the merchants of the sea stand afar off from her shores for fear of the plague.

Then the 3rd angel warns every one on earth about the consequence which is the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the coming New World Order and the time of the coming great tribulation.

So the fall of Babylon by that fiery calamity that burns up one third of the earth per Revelation 8:7 ( which is the western hemisphere ) is the catalyst for the coming New World Order and sets the bed up for the coming great tribulation that is to occur after the rapture event.

Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

So there will be inhabitants in that city of God that will come down from Heaven; it will not be an empty city but filled with the pre great tribulation raptured saints. The Marriage Supper held in Heaven can be seen in Revelation 19:1-10 before Heaven OPENS again in Revelation 19:11-21 for Him to return with those pre great tribulation raptured events to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem as confirmed by Zechariah 14:1-5.

May God cause the increase.

 

[EarlyActs]

None of the plagues has happened yet since this is to be poured out in the great tribulation on those with the mark of the beast to buy & sell.

Revelation 16:18-21 is referring to when Babylon USA will fall. Scripture originally did not come with numbered chapters & numbered verses and certain events in Revelation are not given in chronological order, but He can help us to see the order of events by that fall of Babylon USA.

The rapture event can be seen in revelation 14:1-5 of the testimony of out of those raptured, are the 144,000 honest virgin men that were "redeemed" from the earth that will make up His personal choir in Heaven that follow Him where ever He goes. This is not to signify they were the only ones raptured but to signify out of those raptured, who made up His personal choir.

Then in Revelation 18:6-7 is after the rapture that the first angel with the everlasting gospel will spread it all over the world so all the remaining on the earth will know the gospel and have no excuse not to know it.

And then the end comes ( Matthew 24:14 ) as signified by that fall of Babylon which sets the stage for the coming New World Order and the coming great tribulation When the 2nd angel heralds the fall of Babylon USA in Revelation 14:8 as started in Revelation 16:18-21 and Revelation 17 is describing what that Babylon is and then Revelation 18 describes that judgment on Babylon USA with the left behind saints found dead in her as a plague is found in her also for why the merchants of the sea stand afar off from her shores for fear of the plague.

Then the 3rd angel warns every one on earth about the consequence which is the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell in the coming New World Order and the time of the coming great tribulation.

So the fall of Babylon by that fiery calamity that burns up one third of the earth per Revelation 8:7 ( which is the western hemisphere ) is the catalyst for the coming New World Order and sets the bed up for the coming great tribulation that is to occur after the rapture event.

So there will be inhabitants in that city of God that will come down from Heaven; it will not be an empty city but filled with the pre great tribulation raptured saints. The Marriage Supper held in Heaven can be seen in Revelation 19:1-10 before Heaven OPENS again in Revelation 19:11-21 for Him to return with those pre great tribulation raptured events to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem as confirmed by Zechariah 14:1-5.

May God cause the increase.

It is not about many events on earth, although the final judgement of earth quickly changes to the NHNE. The Jerusalem above is our 'mother' and is also the entity mentioned in Heb 11-13.

It is not a good idea to base ideas on passages in the Rev, which is fraught with symbols for the 1st century Jewish person especially.

If you know Luke's treatment of the devastating generation of Israel and 23:28, you know that he's speaking all through the book of that present generation. 23:28 confines these things to that generation because the infants became adults and would suffer it.

 

[EarlyActs]

Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.

 

[EarlyActs]

Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.

It is better to think of the 'chilias' as 'the very long reign of Christ.' It began at the resurrection though the kingdom has existed for some time; "the earth is the Lord's."

 

[ChristB4us]

It is not about many events on earth, although the final judgement of earth quickly changes to the NHNE. The Jerusalem above is our 'mother' and is also the entity mentioned in Heb 11-13.

If I recall correctly, I have learned that when the seven seals of that scroll are broken, it is to signify that these events are to happen all at once at the unrolling of the scroll; hence when all the seven seals are broken.

It is not a good idea to base ideas on passages in the Rev, which is fraught with symbols for the 1st century Jewish person especially.

You can discern who Babylon is that will fall and when it will fall as happening after the first angel spreads the everlasting gospel everywhere which the first angel will do after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

If you know Luke's treatment of the devastating generation of Israel and 23:28, you know that he's speaking all through the book of that present generation. 23:28 confines these things to that generation because the infants became adults and would suffer it.

Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. 31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

I would discern that Jesus is referring how the builders has rejected the chief cornerstone and the dispensation of the gospel will eventually go to the Gentiles since no longer shall the sons of God be known by lineage of Israel nor by Judaism, but by those who believe in Jesus Christ.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

BUT when the times of the Gentiles comes to an end because of the falling away from the faith in these latter days, the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews after the pre great tribulation rapture event, the 144,000 witnesses for the coming great tribulation.

 

[EarlyActs]

If I recall correctly, I have learned that when the seven seals of that scroll are broken, it is to signify that these events are to happen all at once at the unrolling of the scroll; hence when all the seven seals are broken.

You can discern who Babylon is that will fall and when it will fall as happening after the first angel spreads the everlasting gospel everywhere which the first angel will do after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. 31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

I would discern that Jesus is referring how the builders has rejected the chief cornerstone and the dispensation of the gospel will eventually go to the Gentiles since no longer shall the sons of God be known by lineage of Israel nor by Judaism, but by those who believe in Jesus Christ.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

BUT when the times of the Gentiles comes to an end because of the falling away from the faith in these latter days, the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews after the pre great tribulation rapture event, the 144,000 witnesses for the coming great tribulation.

The Luke 23 means that the infants would despair of life as adults because the calamity would be so awful. That is what the Hos 10 quote means. It wasn't talking about our future, nor bc of that is the Rev in 6:16. Please see the post of the Barnett comments on the Rev.

There is an ending of this world, but it is very quick by all NT letters on it; the Rev is specially about the 1st cent. calamity in Judea. There are no specifically Jewish/Israel events at the end of time in 2 Peter 3, the most complete NT statement on the end in normal (non-symbolic) language.

There is no going back and forth between people in absolute terms. Paul gave up on Israel very early but kept appealing to them for 30 more years. Early Luther appealed to them to be missionaries in the same sense that Rom 10, 11 do. (He went rather mad with grief later in life about his daughter's Jewish doctor). The 2 program D'ist theology is very ill-informed on these things; do not trust it. Just read NT passages for their own merits; do not try to figure out D'ism's mistakes and puzzles as you read.

 

[turbomaniac]

Apostasy is defined as a total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause.” [1. Definition of Apostasy..] In Christian circles, it carries an even stronger connotation of not being a true believer. So what apostasy means is to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth and falling away from the truth we are given in Gods Word. We have been warned in prophecy that this would happen in the church, and it did happen.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If there is indeed an apostasy occurring in the church, how would we know it unless we first examined the Bible closely and then compared it. But what if the church took away and forbid Gods Word as happened. So how was this able to get in and bring such great apostasy into what Christ and the Apostles brought up with such care. It was through subtle and secret changes, done with evil discipline to hide the apostasy that they brought in slowly, so few would notice.

I was doing a study on the Greeks and how they picked up and passed on to the Romans the ancient Babylonian sun gods and system of worship, when I came across a interesting sermon that really hit the issue of the apostasy in the church dead center.

'...Pope is a shortened title for Pontifex Maximus. In Greek it means father. The Pontifex Maximus (meaning king of sacrifices or servant to the triads, as well as the "greatest bridge-maker between the gods and men") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. It's a pagan title that was incorporated from the Etruscan-Latin polytheistic culture (700 BC) who lived before the Romans. These early people (just like the Romans) had built great temples to the gods and goddess of the day. They also had a pagan triad. Eventually the Etruscans were conquered by Rome.

The title Pontifex Maximus (Pope) is mentioned numerous times by the early Catholic Church fathers (especially by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Catholic bishop until much later on. The early Catholics said that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom," the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. This post was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. It's last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian (reigned 375-383). He was then urged by the Catholic bishops to renounce the cultic Roman title, and instead grant it to their exalted leading bishop over Rome.

Pontifex Maximus is a name that's being used by the Roman Catholic Church clergy today. Though it may be abbreviated into Pope or Papa, yet it's clearly a title incorporated directly from paganism. Interesting to note that the all the pagan pontiffs or popes held that office for life. Exactly like the Catholics Popes. And their cult members met and elected a successor, who after his election became the next Pope or Pontifex Maximus (Dionys. II.22, 73). Just like the election held by the Catholic Church cardinals to choose a new Pope. The Pontifex Maximus was the guardian of the Vestal virgins. The Roman Catholic Church has simply named them Nuns instead. Many historians agree that the idea for the powers of the pope with the College of Cardinals came from the Pagan College of Pontiffs with its Sovereign Pontiff which had no doubt been in Rome from the earliest times, and must have been framed on the order of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon. It's also obvious to any historian that while the Catholics have called themselves Christians, they more closely resemble the ancient pagans both in customs and names. Pope Gregory I (601 AD) said in so many words literally, "We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity."...'
http://www.upublish.info/Article/The-Pope--Pontifex-Maximus-/693298

By the time of Emperor Constantine, the Christian religion received imperial sanction and the bishop of Rome became more than just another bishop, and brought in a system of worship from another origin than Christianity, in a apostasy that prophecy foretold.

That is not the only sign that Pope's Church left the truth of the Church that God created. There are many more. But still Pope's Church accepts the tradition with the importance of what Saints have written as interpretation of the Holy Bible. So we can still find good Priests and monks in Pope's Church. But we can find even better in the East Orthodox Church, the Church created by the Apostles and still trying to keep the same spirit without pride and arrogance. Of course we can find also there bad shepherds. But as God Word said He is the true vine and His branches are the church. He cuts off the bad branches (bad Priests, heretics and bad christians) and throw them into the fire.

for there are 3 types of bad christians:
1. The lazy christians (like me) that they don't pray enough, etc)

2. the Pharisees who think they are saved and they are full of arrogance.

3. Those that interpretate with their own will the scriptures and they create false dogmas like the heretics and every one that makes fallacy of doctrine. The Pharisees and the false dogmas are the most dangerous because pride is blinding them. Most of them have an epidermic knowledge of the scriptures and do not know basic theology.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Luke 23 means that the infants would despair of life as adults because the calamity would be so awful. That is what the Hos 10 quote means. It wasn't talking about our future, nor bc of that is the Rev in 6:16. Please see the post of the Barnett comments on the Rev.

There is an ending of this world, but it is very quick by all NT letters on it; the Rev is specially about the 1st cent. calamity in Judea. There are no specifically Jewish/Israel events at the end of time in 2 Peter 3, the most complete NT statement on the end in normal (non-symbolic) language.

There is no going back and forth between people in absolute terms. Paul gave up on Israel very early but kept appealing to them for 30 more years. Early Luther appealed to them to be missionaries in the same sense that Rom 10, 11 do. (He went rather mad with grief later in life about his daughter's Jewish doctor). The 2 program D'ist theology is very ill-informed on these things; do not trust it. Just read NT passages for their own merits; do not try to figure out D'ism's mistakes and puzzles as you read.

We prophesy in part and know in part but when we see him face to face, we shall know all things.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[EarlyActs]

Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”
Published by IVP



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.

 

[Hobie]

It is not about many events on earth, although the final judgement of earth quickly changes to the NHNE. The Jerusalem above is our 'mother' and is also the entity mentioned in Heb 11-13.

It is not a good idea to base ideas on passages in the Rev, which is fraught with symbols for the 1st century Jewish person especially.

If you know Luke's treatment of the devastating generation of Israel and 23:28, you know that he's speaking all through the book of that present generation. 23:28 confines these things to that generation because the infants became adults and would suffer it.

Is this is too hard to understand? I think its for more than just the '1st century Jewish person'...

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.