The four horsemen of the apocalypse

[LeviR]

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

After the sealing of the 144,000 John clearly tells us how many and where these elect, spiritual Jews came from....lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.

Rather than spiritualize the 144,000 Jews into all people, you might consider that they do indeed refer to Jews who had be scattered among all nations during the time of great tribulation and who now will be returning to their land.

The fact that each of the 12 tribes is mentioned and the number of each, gives credence to the fact they are indeed Jews.

 

[Carbon]

The “he” who will confirm the covenant with many is the Messiah.

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, I believe I would be correct.

I disagree.


Question, who do you believe is the he in Daniel 9:27?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9.

Don't know. It will be a popular leader.

 

[Carbon]

Don't know. It will be a popular leader.

Do you think it could be Jesus?

 

[LeviR]

Do you think it could be Jesus?

Jesus is not the one who is actually confirming the covenant with the many. He does it by his witnesses.
It ought be understood that what takes place during the time when the vision of John is opened as the execution of God’s judgments which are to come to pass upon the earth. In Jerusalem.

Therefore the question of who is riding the 4 horse judgments is ultimately Christ because he executes them even though he is unseen.

In the same way, he confirms the covenant by his witnesses of the truth as they go about.

After Christ had ascended to the Father, he was to be with the disciples confirming the gospel by miracles he worked through them by the Spirit. He was to be with them until the end of the age. That age ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. Whereby the confirmation of the gospel through miracles ceased.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

When I pointed out their rejection of Paul and the absurdity in their belief they disfellowshipped me. Good riddance.

What I find sad, is that an issue based upon the interpretation of an obscure verse or idea, became so divisive as to result in this outcome. I have never seen this particular concept causing such an outcome here in Australia, even though it is part of our Statement of Faith. We have had strong disagreements on some doctrines, historically here in Australia, and I could name the subject of the Atonement. If I could label the variations on the Atonement on a scale of 1-10, then possibly those with one extreme, say position "1" could have strong words with someone in position "10", but in general now there is a spirit of tolerance and quiet discussion. In my meeting, two of our senior expositors have a background of belonging to meetings which were almost centres of the two extremes, but much has been resolved and some aspects and minor differences are now tolerated. I consider that we must be very careful not to insist upon our unique interpretation of a particular verse which could be classified as "uncertain detail".

I was a Christadelphian for some years.

Perhaps you alone would know, how much your difference on the one item and the treatment you received has affected your other beliefs. Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic) or has your experience resulted in a reassessment of all the Christadelphian beliefs? You claim that you have always been a Futurist, and as a result you certainly have a different perspective on End Times than the mainstream Christadelphian views on this. Most of those with whom I fellowship would basically accept the Continuous Historic view of the Four Horsemen and apply this to Judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96-312.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

What I find sad, is that an issue based upon the interpretation of an obscure verse or idea, became so divisive as to result in this outcome. I have never seen this particular concept causing such an outcome here in Australia, even though it is part of our Statement of Faith. We have had strong disagreements on some doctrines, historically here in Australia, and I could name the subject of the Atonement. If I could label the variations on the Atonement on a scale of 1-10, then possibly those with one extreme, say position "1" could have strong words with someone in position "10", but in general now there is a spirit of tolerance and quiet discussion. In my meeting, two of our senior expositors have a background of belonging to meetings which were almost centres of the two extremes, but much has been resolved and some aspects and minor differences are now tolerated. I consider that we must be very careful not to insist upon our unique interpretation of a particular verse which could be classified as "uncertain detail".

Perhaps you alone would know, how much your difference on the one item and the treatment you received has affected your other beliefs. Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic) or has your experience resulted in a reassessment of all the Christadelphian beliefs? You claim that you have always been a Futurist, and as a result you certainly have a different perspective on End Times than the mainstream Christadelphian views on this. Most of those with whom I fellowship would basically accept the Continuous Historic view of the Four Horsemen and apply this to Judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96-312.

Kind regards
Trevor

My futurist view was never cause to be rejected by the Christadeplhians. I had discussions of my view with only one friend at the meeting. When I interviewed for membership, that topic was never raised. Nor was the topic of “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?” 1 Cor 15:35
It wasn’t until I spoke up with others about their rejection that the faithful will be clothed with immortality at the resurrection of the dead that I was disfellowshipped.

Other than my futurist view of Revelation, and of the resurrection of the faithful, we agree.
That seems to be enough of a dividing factor.

 

[Red Baker]

There appears to have been a lot of events in history that some have considered as the "mark".


So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

But I ask....where are the harmful and painful sores?

Until now, or should I say the technology hasn't been around for such a mark to exist planet wide.
The technology may very well be here...perhaps not exactly in the form presented below, but something very similar.

View attachment 984

This is something we can do right now.

Currently stores such as "Whole Foods" are developing systems

Whole Foods Allows Customers To Pay With Palm Scanners—Here’s How It Works (article)​

This is but a stepping stone. As the One World Beast System is established these technologies will merge.

There are many spokes to this wheel...CBDC...is yet another. ....and will be tied together.

Greetings CrowCross,

I truly do not see in a way of any biblical prophecy being fulfilled ~ even though this might play a part in forcing people to go along, in order for them to know who is not of their thinking and try to use it to force folks to think and do as they do.

My wife and I have never had covid shots and never will, and we also are against the grandchildren (18) from having shots, but leave that to their parents to make that decision for them, yet we strongly voice our opinions as to why they should avoid all shots altogether, some of our children follow us, some have not, yet do agree with us overall~but our daughters have husbands that makes decisions for his family, my son is a difference story, I can put more pressure on him, even though I did not need to do so.

The mark of the beast is spiritual, and is to be understood in that sense. I have already spoken on this somewhere in the last week of so.

 

[Red Baker]

Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic)

Greetings Trevor,

While I do consider your sect a cult, I do not judge individuals as children of the devil, at least in some cults, I believe God has some of his children in cults, just in serious errors. There are some cults, I do not believe God has any of his children therein. Let me explain my self~an example would be helpful.

The Sadducees were a false cult among the Jews' religion in our Lord's day, and we never read where even one of them were ever saved from that cult. Yet, the Pharisees were also a false cult, where God had many of his children fallen for their errors and were saved (practically speaking) from that cult, yet, some may had never came out, like Nicodemus.

That being said, I'm not judging your sincere love and fear of God. Neither will I judge your sincerity, and fear, if it is genuine or not~I cannot see the heart of man, only God can as we both know.

Heresy, in a scriptural sense, may apply to any doctrine or sentiment held in opposition to bible truth, or subversive of the truth as it is in Jesus, and as set forth in the holy scriptures. Happy and highly favored of the Lord must that christian be who is perfectly free from misconceptions as to the true meaning of every part of the scriptures of truth, if indeed such an one can be found on the earth. It is subversive of the teaching of the Spirit for us to denounce as a heretic, or make a brother an offender for a word, as we at present are in an imperfect state. We see but in part, we know but in part, and are not to tolerate in ourselves a censorious or criticising spirit towards our brethren. The magnitude of heresy is ascertained by its virulence and hostility to the truth, and by its tendency to overturn the faith of the disciples. Some were to be reproved, some rebuked sharply, and others to be delivered to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[Red Baker]

Rather than spiritualize the 144,000 Jews into all people.....

Greetings Levi,

I did not spiritualized the 144,000, the Spirit of God did this for us!

I do read scriptures at face value, and from there (especially so in Revelation,) labor to interpret them accordingly. Just as God separated the twelve tribes of Israel of old, and gave them a portion of land to each tribe, of the seven countries that Israel destroyed, so will he give this present world's seven Continents unto the very elect~even though it will be a new heaven and new earth which will be our eternal inheritance for ever. God will place the elect in the new earth according to his own will. The world to come (the Father house wherein there will be mansion the like this world has never seen~John 14:2) which the very elect will inherit, which is beyond our ability to even imagine for its beauty and tranquility~which the people of this world seek after in this present world, that is to be destroy with the wicked therein perishing.

1st Corinthians 2:9,10

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”

you might consider that they do indeed refer to Jews who had be scattered among all nations during the time of great tribulation and who now will be returning to their land.

You might want to take serious look at what you are saying, since God's word said otherwise, consider:

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

Levi, even the 144,000 was a number that no man could number! What does that say to your understanding? Also, what does all kindred mean to you? Jews? far from that. Yet, you are forcing your beliefs that you have been taught into these scriptures.

The fact that each of the 12 tribes is mentioned and the number of each, gives credence to the fact they are indeed Jews.

I might come back at look at how the Spirit of God uses the number twelve in the scriptures, but I must wait until later today.

​

 

[CrowCross]

Do you think it could be Jesus?

Absolutely not.

The anti-christ.....will be a false christ in the place of christ. We are told...do not be deceived.

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings CrowCross,

I truly do not see in a way of any biblical prophecy being fulfilled ~ even though this might play a part in forcing people to go along, in order for them to know who is not of their thinking and try to use it to force folks to think and do as they do.

My wife and I have never had covid shots and never will, and we also are against the grandchildren (18) from having shots, but leave that to their parents to make that decision for them, yet we strongly voice our opinions as to why they should avoid all shots altogether, some of our children follow us, some have not, yet do agree with us overall~but our daughters have husbands that makes decisions for his family, my son is a difference story, I can put more pressure on him, even though I did not need to do so.

The mark of the beast is spiritual, and is to be understood in that sense. I have already spoken on this somewhere in the last week of so.

I have learned that christians should not divide over eschatological views.

What I can deduce (as well as others) is that the mark is much more than spiritual. Two reasons would be a spiritual mark would not prevent one from buying and selling. Secondly a spiritual mark would not cause a sickness for those who have taken it such as described in Rev 16:2.
Though you may argue the bowl judgement only effects those "supernaturally" that have aligned themselves with Satan.

What I have done in my previous post is show what the mark may look like or be developed from. We have developed the technology for the mark to exist.

 

[Mr GLee]

I have learned that christians should not divide over eschatological views.

What I can deduce (as well as others) is that the mark is much more than spiritual. Two reasons would be a spiritual mark would not prevent one from buying and selling. Secondly a spiritual mark would not cause a sickness for those who have taken it such as described in Rev 16:2.
Though you may argue the bowl judgement only effects those "supernaturally" that have aligned themselves with Satan.

What I have done in my previous post is show what the mark may look like or be developed from. We have developed the technology for the mark to exist.

I would offer.

The differnce between the words "sign" and "mark" must be distinguished or it can lose is spiritual unseen value(faith) We are informed that no sign was given other than the sign of Jonah . It was fulfilled during the three days and nights demonstrations.

In that way it is a evil generation The pagan tradition "out of sight out of mind" no belief in a invisible God. When I se then I will believe.

Sign and wonder seekers never coming to a end . .faith belief rather than prophecy for the believer.

mark. . the measure of things or way (8 times in Revelation ).

sign . . . "a visible mark or device having some special meaning 2 times in Revelations

Mark of the beast not sign of the beast .

Buy and selling of gospel truth not literal food for these dying bodies it loses the spiritual significance (faith)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

The first use of the word mark has to do with Cain a beast of the field created on the sixth day ,Six used three times denoted the end of matter six, six, six .

The mark of His word what he declares comes to pass . 666 unconverted mankind

Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

 

[Carbon]

I have learned that christians should not divide over eschatological views.

Have you heeded that teaching?

 

[Carbon]

Absolutely not.

Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The anti-christ.....will be a false christ in the place of christ. We are told...do not be deceived.

Well sure, that is true.
But how do you relate that as far as the rider on the white horse?

Just a guess?

 

[Carbon]

What I can deduce (as well as others) is that the mark is much more than spiritual. Two reasons would be a spiritual mark would not prevent one from buying and selling.

In many empires of the past, the empires after becoming Roman Catholic demanded all become RC and bow to the pope, when some did not, they were not allowed to buy and sell and eventually lost all their property and were even murdered.

What I have done in my previous post is show what the mark may look like or be developed from. We have developed the technology for the mark to exist.

I have to go check this out.

 

[Carbon]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say....Unless God snuck the 4 horses into history....there is no record of the 4 horsemen, symbolic or not.

Well sure there is, you just don't see it. But not literally, of course.

When did a 1/4 of the world's population die?

The rider on the pale horse represents death from, warfare, famine, and pestilence. and wild beasts.

When did it cost the world's population a days wages to make a loaf of bread?

You don't see economic hardship and poverty due to injustice?

The 4 horsemen are future....as in after the harpazo of the church,.

Scripture I believe disagrees with your opinion.

 

[Carbon]

Rather than spiritualize the 144,000 Jews into all people, you might consider that they do indeed refer to Jews who had be scattered among all nations during the time of great tribulation and who now will be returning to their land.

The fact that each of the 12 tribes is mentioned and the number of each, gives credence to the fact they are indeed Jews.

If this is referring to the Jews then it would be to spiritual Jews, also known as the elect, or spiritual Israel.. This number 144,00 is also symbolic.

As far as my understanding anyway.

 

[Carbon]

This is the anti-christ....

Some say this may be the white horse.


View attachment 982

But scripture teaches Jesus Christ is on the white horse.

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and the one who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Revelation 6.

Christ is the conqueror.
Should we, the church, expect trials? Of course.

Remember also in scripture the color white is always associated with that which is holy and heavenly. Think of the white garments, white throne, white stone etc... So, I think we can be certain the rider on the "white horse" cannot be the devil or the antichrist.

You said eleswhere this rider has the wrong crown. But consider Revelation 14:14 which refers to Christ wearing a gold crown.

 

[Carbon]

Christ is the conqueror.
Should we, the church, expect trials? Of course.

Whenever Christ appears, satan becomes very busy and we can be sure trials are in store for the church.