The four horsemen of the apocalypse

[LeviR]

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

After the sealing of the 144,000 John clearly tells us how many and where these elect, spiritual Jews came from....lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.

Rather than spiritualize the 144,000 Jews into all people, you might consider that they do indeed refer to Jews who had be scattered among all nations during the time of great tribulation and who now will be returning to their land.

The fact that each of the 12 tribes is mentioned and the number of each, gives credence to the fact they are indeed Jews.

 

[Carbon]

The “he” who will confirm the covenant with many is the Messiah.

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, I believe I would be correct.

I disagree.


Question, who do you believe is the he in Daniel 9:27?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9.

Don't know. It will be a popular leader.

 

[Carbon]

Don't know. It will be a popular leader.

Do you think it could be Jesus?

 

[LeviR]

Do you think it could be Jesus?

Jesus is not the one who is actually confirming the covenant with the many. He does it by his witnesses.
It ought be understood that what takes place during the time when the vision of John is opened as the execution of God’s judgments which are to come to pass upon the earth. In Jerusalem.

Therefore the question of who is riding the 4 horse judgments is ultimately Christ because he executes them even though he is unseen.

In the same way, he confirms the covenant by his witnesses of the truth as they go about.

After Christ had ascended to the Father, he was to be with the disciples confirming the gospel by miracles he worked through them by the Spirit. He was to be with them until the end of the age. That age ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. Whereby the confirmation of the gospel through miracles ceased.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

When I pointed out their rejection of Paul and the absurdity in their belief they disfellowshipped me. Good riddance.

What I find sad, is that an issue based upon the interpretation of an obscure verse or idea, became so divisive as to result in this outcome. I have never seen this particular concept causing such an outcome here in Australia, even though it is part of our Statement of Faith. We have had strong disagreements on some doctrines, historically here in Australia, and I could name the subject of the Atonement. If I could label the variations on the Atonement on a scale of 1-10, then possibly those with one extreme, say position "1" could have strong words with someone in position "10", but in general now there is a spirit of tolerance and quiet discussion. In my meeting, two of our senior expositors have a background of belonging to meetings which were almost centres of the two extremes, but much has been resolved and some aspects and minor differences are now tolerated. I consider that we must be very careful not to insist upon our unique interpretation of a particular verse which could be classified as "uncertain detail".

I was a Christadelphian for some years.

Perhaps you alone would know, how much your difference on the one item and the treatment you received has affected your other beliefs. Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic) or has your experience resulted in a reassessment of all the Christadelphian beliefs? You claim that you have always been a Futurist, and as a result you certainly have a different perspective on End Times than the mainstream Christadelphian views on this. Most of those with whom I fellowship would basically accept the Continuous Historic view of the Four Horsemen and apply this to Judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96-312.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

What I find sad, is that an issue based upon the interpretation of an obscure verse or idea, became so divisive as to result in this outcome. I have never seen this particular concept causing such an outcome here in Australia, even though it is part of our Statement of Faith. We have had strong disagreements on some doctrines, historically here in Australia, and I could name the subject of the Atonement. If I could label the variations on the Atonement on a scale of 1-10, then possibly those with one extreme, say position "1" could have strong words with someone in position "10", but in general now there is a spirit of tolerance and quiet discussion. In my meeting, two of our senior expositors have a background of belonging to meetings which were almost centres of the two extremes, but much has been resolved and some aspects and minor differences are now tolerated. I consider that we must be very careful not to insist upon our unique interpretation of a particular verse which could be classified as "uncertain detail".

Perhaps you alone would know, how much your difference on the one item and the treatment you received has affected your other beliefs. Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic) or has your experience resulted in a reassessment of all the Christadelphian beliefs? You claim that you have always been a Futurist, and as a result you certainly have a different perspective on End Times than the mainstream Christadelphian views on this. Most of those with whom I fellowship would basically accept the Continuous Historic view of the Four Horsemen and apply this to Judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96-312.

Kind regards
Trevor

My futurist view was never cause to be rejected by the Christadeplhians. I had discussions of my view with only one friend at the meeting. When I interviewed for membership, that topic was never raised. Nor was the topic of “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?” 1 Cor 15:35
It wasn’t until I spoke up with others about their rejection that the faithful will be clothed with immortality at the resurrection of the dead that I was disfellowshipped.

Other than my futurist view of Revelation, and of the resurrection of the faithful, we agree.
That seems to be enough of a dividing factor.

 

[Red Baker]

There appears to have been a lot of events in history that some have considered as the "mark".


So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

But I ask....where are the harmful and painful sores?

Until now, or should I say the technology hasn't been around for such a mark to exist planet wide.
The technology may very well be here...perhaps not exactly in the form presented below, but something very similar.

View attachment 984

This is something we can do right now.

Currently stores such as "Whole Foods" are developing systems

Whole Foods Allows Customers To Pay With Palm Scanners—Here’s How It Works (article)​

This is but a stepping stone. As the One World Beast System is established these technologies will merge.

There are many spokes to this wheel...CBDC...is yet another. ....and will be tied together.

Greetings CrowCross,

I truly do not see in a way of any biblical prophecy being fulfilled ~ even though this might play a part in forcing people to go along, in order for them to know who is not of their thinking and try to use it to force folks to think and do as they do.

My wife and I have never had covid shots and never will, and we also are against the grandchildren (18) from having shots, but leave that to their parents to make that decision for them, yet we strongly voice our opinions as to why they should avoid all shots altogether, some of our children follow us, some have not, yet do agree with us overall~but our daughters have husbands that makes decisions for his family, my son is a difference story, I can put more pressure on him, even though I did not need to do so.

The mark of the beast is spiritual, and is to be understood in that sense. I have already spoken on this somewhere in the last week of so.

 

[Red Baker]

Do you retain some of the Christadelphian beliefs, which would have been different to such participants in this thread, say @Red Baker (who would label me as a heretic)

Greetings Trevor,

While I do consider your sect a cult, I do not judge individuals as children of the devil, at least in some cults, I believe God has some of his children in cults, just in serious errors. There are some cults, I do not believe God has any of his children therein. Let me explain my self~an example would be helpful.

The Sadducees were a false cult among the Jews religion in our Lord's day, and we never read where even one of them were ever saved from that cult. Yet, the Pharisees were also a false cult, where God had many of his children fallen for their errors and were saved (practically speaking) from that cult, yet, some may had never came out, like Nicodemus.

That being said, I'm not judging your sincere love and fear of God. Neither will I judge your sincerity, and fear, if it is genuine or not~I cannot see the heart of man, only God can as we both know.

Heresy, in a scriptural sense, may apply to any doctrine or sentiment held in opposition to bible truth, or subversive of the truth as it is in Jesus, and as set forth in the holy scriptures. Happy and highly favored of the Lord must that christian be who is perfectly free from misconceptions as to the true meaning of every part of the scriptures of truth, if indeed such an one can be found on the earth. It is subversive of the teaching of the Spirit for us to denounce as a heretic, or make a brother an offender for a word, as we at present are in an imperfect state. We see but in part, we know but in part, and are not to tolerate in ourselves a censorious or criticising spirit towards our brethren. The magnitude of heresy is ascertained by its virulence and hostility to the truth, and by its tendency to overturn the faith of the disciples. Some were to be reproved, some rebuked sharply, and others to be delivered to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.