The four horsemen of the apocalypse

[Red Baker]

Daniel’s people are the Jewish people.
The clay in the image of Daniel 2 represents the Jewish people.
The allusion to what is spoken by Daniel regarding the clay is seen as it was in the days of Noah when the sons of God mingled themselves with the daughters of men.
This disobedience of mixing themselves with those out of the way was the reason God brought the flood to destroy them all except the remnant of Noah and his family.

When Christ returns, and the sealed up judgments of God are executed, the Jewish people or Israel, who is called God’s firstborn son, will again fall into idolatry with their evil neighbors by mingling themselves with them in covenant or agreement.
This time is referred to as the time of Jacob or Israel’s trouble. When the people will worship the beast and his image and when the Jewish king who claims to be God will be revealed. The man of sin, son of perdition.
This will bring the final Judgment upon God’s people, the Jews.

And after these sore judgments are executed upon Jerusalem and her people, God will turn His attention to the nations who invaded the land of Israel as God’s sword of His anger against His people, and they too will fall on the mountains of Israel. And those who remain will be driven back to their own lands.

Then God’s kingdom will be established on earth and in Jerusalem by the remnant of the faithful Jews who win the victory over the red dragon king Antichrist of the Jews and the warring nations.

To refute this in depth would take this thread way off course. Briefly:

"the time of Jacob or Israel’s trouble"~is a time of great tribulation for the very elect, the House of Jacob that Christ died for.

"the Jewish king who claims to be God will be revealed." A Jewish fable made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible, etc.

"The man of sin, son of perdition" ~are all men that have filled the professing churches of Christ/God claiming to be his people, yet who live under the power of sin, etc. It is just as simple as the name said: man of sin....man of sin.

"Then God’s kingdom will be established on earth and in Jerusalem by the remnant of the faithful Jews" Jesus Christ will never reign in this present earth in Jerusalem, another Jewish fable pushed by men who have been deluded by false prophets.

 

[LeviR]

To refute this in depth would take this thread way off course. Briefly:

"the time of Jacob or Israel’s trouble"~is a time of great tribulation for the very elect, the House of Jacob that Christ died for.

"the Jewish king who claims to be God will be revealed." A Jewish fable made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible, etc.

"The man of sin, son of perdition" ~are all men that have filled the professing churches of Christ/God claiming to be his people, yet who live under the power of sin, etc. It is just as simple as the name said: man of sin....man of sin.

"Then God’s kingdom will be established on earth and in Jerusalem by the remnant of the faithful Jews" Jesus Christ will never reign in this present earth in Jerusalem, another Jewish fable pushed by men who have been deluded by false prophets.

You would have great difficulty refuting those things because the continuous-historical view of Revelation must go outside of the scripture to show what they believe.
And in doing so, they create contradictions with scripture, which is always the case with false teaching.
They speak not according to the word but their own imagination.
The very early church understood the Antichrist to be of Jewish decent. Not that it matters because the scripture clearly shows it.

 

[LeviR]

Also, the continuous-historal ones are scratching their heads because their time calculations are way off.

 

[Tambora]

Yes.

Daniel 12:1​

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

That certainly seems to indicate that Daniel's people are the faithful ones who are written in the book.
The verse also indicates that Daniel's people written in the book are delivered, not overtaken or destroyed by the time of trouble.

That is just some of scripture that makes me doubt the layout dispensationalist present.
And I have yet to find a scripture passage that has "tribulation" and "seven" in it.
So the tribulation being only for Israel and lasting for seven years isn't fitting as snuggly as they would like for it to.

 

[LeviR]

That certainly seems to indicate that Daniel's people are the faithful ones who are written in the book.
The verse also indicates that Daniel's people written in the book are delivered, not overtaken or destroyed by the time of trouble.

That is just some of scripture that makes me doubt the layout dispensationalist present.
And I have yet to find a scripture passage that has "tribulation" and "seven" in it.
So the tribulation being only for Israel and lasting for seven years isn't fitting as snuggly as they would like for it to.

Those of us who have been correctly informed by the scripture of truth know that the things which Daniel, Jesus, Paul and Revelation speak refers to the time of the end. The time of trouble that is like no other.

Those who have been misinformed have set dates for this time as being 1866, 1886, 1910, 1914 etc.

The verse you comment on (Dan 12:1) mentions this “time of trouble” and indicates that Micheal will stand up for his people(the Jews) during this time also called “the tribulation”:which will occur when they take away the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation is instead setup in the temple and the man of sin revealed.

In Revelation, Daniel’s people(Jews) who are to be helped by Michael (who has stood up for the people of Israel in the past) are the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel(Jews) Rev 7:4

Those are the Jews who will be sealed with the name of the Father. They are the remnant of the people of Israel. The rest will have the mark of the beast.

 

[Tambora]

Those of us who have been correctly informed by the scripture of truth know that the things which Daniel, Jesus, Paul and Revelation speak refers to the time of the end. The time of trouble that is like no other.

Tribulations have always been around and everybody has them. That's why scripture does not have a verse which combines tribulation with a seven years period.
The time which will be like no other is the final judgment because it is the only time in all of history when there is a permanent separation of the righteous and the unrighteous that will never be repeated.

Those who have been misinformed have set dates for this time as being 1866, 1886, 1910, 1914 etc.

Those who have been misinformed have set a date following a secret rapture that Jesus never mentions.

The verse you comment on (Dan 12:1) mentions this “time of trouble” and indicates that Micheal will stand up for his people(the Jews) during this time also called “the tribulation”:which will occur when they take away the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation is instead setup in the temple and the man of sin revealed.

Daniel 12:1 ESV
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.


The time of trouble is the same time when everyone written in the book is delivered.
That's at the final judgment, the end of days, when the righteous and unrighteous are separated forever.

In Revelation, Daniel’s people(Jews) who are to be helped by Michael (who has stood up for the people of Israel in the past) are the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel(Jews) Rev 7:4

Those are the Jews who will be sealed with the name of the Father. They are the remnant of the people of Israel. The rest will have the mark of the beast.

Sorry, but the verse says that time is the same time when:

Michael stands​

the time is as no other​

those written in the book are delivered​

​

The verse does not separate that time into different times.

 

[LeviR]

I

Tribulations have always been around and everybody has them. That's why scripture does not have a verse which combines tribulation with a seven years period.
The time which will be like no other is the final judgment because it is the only time in all of history when there is a permanent separation of the righteous and the unrighteous that will never be repeated.



Those who have been misinformed have set a date following a secret rapture that Jesus never mentions.



Daniel 12:1 ESV
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.


The time of trouble is the same time when everyone written in the book is delivered.
That's at the final judgment, the end of days, when the righteous and unrighteous are separated forever.





Sorry, but the verse says that time is the same time when:

Michael stands​

the time is as no other​

those written in the book are delivered​

​

The verse does not separate that time into different times.

Furturist don’t set dates, we know what to look for.

The failure of the continuous-historical view with its faulty dating system of year for a day has proved to be such. A failure. There is no more use for it because it doesn’t work. It never has and never will.
But rather than accepting an alternative view, they continue in their fairytale because pride does not allow them to admit they might be wrong even though their own system proves them wrong.

They’ve basically given up on their failed dating system and instead are looking for signs of the times.

The problem with that is that they haven’t changed their failed view and are looking for the wrong things.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker and LeviR,

They are part of the great whore, just as many are. There may very well be some sincere, godly folks among them, that I would not judge, but their teachings are antichrist on many levels.

I am more than satisfied with Christadelphian teaching and environment. I was brought up in a Christadelphian family and meeting, and was baptised when I was 21 y.o., nearly 60 years ago. I have been at my present meeting for over 40 years after moving from Sydney. I have never seen the need to move to any of the other seven meetings in my region, but I assume that if necessity arose I could be satisfied in a relocation. Over the years I have looked at many denominations, and cannot accept their teachings and I would not be at ease in their particular environment. These forums only give a slight indication of what it would be like, but possibly sufficient to make a reasonable decision.

The faithful will have been raised with immortal bodies while the unjust with mortal bodies.

I am satisfied with what I have stated concerning Daniel 7 (off topic), and the four horsemen. A brief comment on the above off topic concept.
1 Corinthians 15:42–43 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

At first reading we may assume that our mortal, corrupt, dead body is placed in the grave, and then Jesus returns and raises us as immortal. Recently I have sown 20 pumpkin seeds and the weather and rain being kind at least 15 have come up, and they now have their third leaf. I could say that the pumpkin seeds have been raised into a pumpkin plant, but possibly most of us would say that the pumpkin plant has only been raised when it is fully grown and produces fruit. I believe that those responsible to judgement when Christ returns will be raised mortal, then judged and the faithful will then be given immortality. All of this is comprehended in the word "raised", it represents the full process. Also the faithful are not categorised by their mortal death, but by the fact that they have partaken by faith of the death associated with the death of Christ, by baptism in water and living the crucified life.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Red Baker and LeviR,

I am more than satisfied with Christadelphian teaching and environment. I was brought up in a Christadelphian family and meeting, and was baptised when I was 21 y.o., nearly 60 years ago. I have been at my present meeting for over 40 years after moving from Sydney. I have never seen the need to move to any of the other seven meetings in my region, but I assume that if necessity arose I could be satisfied in a relocation. Over the years I have looked at many denominations, and cannot accept their teachings and I would not be at ease in their particular environment. These forums only give a slight indication of what it would be like, but possibly sufficient to make a reasonable decision.

I am satisfied with what I have stated concerning Daniel 7 (off topic), and the four horsemen. A brief comment on the above off topic concept.
1 Corinthians 15:42–43 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

At first reading we may assume that our mortal, corrupt, dead body is placed in the grave, and then Jesus returns and raises us as immortal. Recently I have sown 20 pumpkin seeds and the weather and rain being kind at least 15 have come up, and they now have their third leaf. I could say that the pumpkin seeds have been raised into a pumpkin plant, but possibly most of us would say that the pumpkin plant has only been raised when it is fully grown and produces fruit. I believe that those responsible to judgement when Christ returns will be raised mortal, then judged and the faithful will then be given immortality. All of this is comprehended in the word "raised", it represents the full process. Also the faithful are not categorised by their mortal death, but by the fact that they have partaken by faith of the death associated with the death of Christ, by baptism in water and living the crucified life.

Kind regards
Trevor

sorry friend, but it occurs in the twinkling of an eye. It become a spiritual body as fast as that.
It doesn’t go through the process of being mortal for some time until judgment. At least not for the faithful who are raised incorruptible. The unjust is another story. Because they die a second death.

 

[LeviR]

The Christadelphians teach a false hope for the resurrection of the faithful. They tell them that they will be clothed with the same body of death they died with.
Paul teaches the hope of resurrection for the faithful to be clothed with immortality in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.
Anyone who reads 1 Cor 15 with some sense of comprehension will clearly see this.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

Paul teaches the hope of resurrection for the faithful to be clothed with immortality in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.
Anyone who reads 1 Cor 15 with some sense of comprehension will clearly see this.

Yes, after the necessary humbling process of the Judgement the faithful will be changed from mortality to immortality in an instant.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When do you consider that the faithful dead will appear before the Judgement Seat, after which they will receive the change of body?
Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

You would have great difficulty refuting those things because the continuous-historical view of Revelation must go outside of the scripture to show what they believe.
And in doing so, they create contradictions with scripture, which is always the case with false teaching.
They speak not according to the word but their own imagination.

Greetings Levi~Here I agree with you on staying only within the scriptures in teaching on eschatology. Those that know me, know that I reject extra biblical source of information in order to interpret God's word. I'm not a preterist, nor an historic teacher, though I 'am an Amill idealist, a label that other would give a person of same school of thought. I was first taught the premill position when I first came to Christ as a young man back in my mid twenties, over fifty years ago. But, thanks be to God, I quickly saw through that science fiction theory.

The very early church understood the Antichrist to be of Jewish decent. Not that it matters because the scripture clearly shows it

Levi, why trust outside source as what the early fathers believe? Stay with the scriptures! Post church father's that came shorty after the apostles where the first corrupters of the truth, they believe all kind of heresies ~ I would never go back to them, to support a doctrine, besides, they did not even agree among themselves.

1st John 2:18​

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

The dispensation of Christ's first coming, set in motion the last dispensation that shall come in God timeline of bible prophecy. In the latter days of this present dispensation the apostles taught that antichrist shall come, even though at that time there where many antichrist, yet a time would come in the latter days of this present dispensation that this shall even be multiplied many more times, which other scriptures would support.

Matthew 24:11​

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”

No where in the scriptures can anyone prove that these many false prophets shall be Jewish, but men of all nations, tongues and languages.

This world (Mystery Babylon) began to be flooded with false prophets around the1800's, and they have continuously been increasing since then, the list is long of false cults that have risen since then. The Mormons, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Science, Pentecostal's, Christadelphian, etc., along with the many already in the earth!

Levi, antichrist, man of sin and the Abomination of desolation, are all one and the same, and can easily be prove to be so.

 

[Red Baker]

Those of us who have been correctly informed by the scripture of truth know that the things which Daniel, Jesus, Paul and Revelation speak refers to the time of the end. The time of trouble that is like no other.

Levi, I would agree, only it is spiritual in nature, not literal.

Those who have been misinformed have set dates for this time as being 1866, 1886, 1910, 1914 etc.

I agree~No man knows the years, month, day nor hour of the Lord's coming, the best we can do is get within the little season, and even the little season as far as I can tell has already lasted two hundred years, or so, and it is closing, yet we just do not know how close that day is. Even in my own days, the days of Lot, are coming out even more so than ever before. So, we should stay in a state of being ready, by working and doing the most we can for the kingdom of God.

The verse you comment on (Dan 12:1) mentions this “time of trouble” and indicates that Micheal will stand up for his people(the Jews) during this time also called “the tribulation”:which will occur when they take away the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation is instead setup in the temple and the man of sin revealed.

Briefly, again, Daniel's people are the very elect, those that are written in the book of life!

The daily sacrifice taken away and the man of sin being revealed has happen now in our own day. God's people are no longer welcome in the professing churches in this world. Live according to the scriptures, preach according to the scriptures (election of pure grace) and see how many folks will love to have you among them~not many. Thereby, when God's children leave and resort to home worship, the true daily sacrifice of God people are no longer heard in the temple of God! Selah!

In Revelation, Daniel’s people(Jews) who are to be helped by Michael (who has stood up for the people of Israel in the past) are the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel(Jews) Rev 7:4

Those are the Jews who will be sealed with the name of the Father. They are the remnant of the people of Israel. The rest will have the mark of the beast.

Those 144,000 (totality of the fullness under consideration) are speaking of God's elect from every nation under heaven. Consider:

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

After the sealing of the 144,000 John clearly tells us how many and where these elect, spiritual Jews came from....lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.

Levi, you need to learn to read your bible better than you are now doing. No pun intended.

 

[Mr GLee]

Levi, I would agree, only it is spiritual in nature, not literal.

The time of first reformation had come putting a end to the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel )

A tribulation like none before or ever again for the Jew that was trusting his own dying Jewish flesh .One like never before or ever again

A great Joy for al the nations of the world .One like never before or ever again

Yes no literal signs were given to wonder after as if they were prophecy . Christ condemns sign seekers

Briefly, again, Daniel's people are the very elect, those that are written in the book of life!

Amen.

Those 144,000 (totality of the fullness under consideration) are speaking of God's elect from every nation under heaven. Consider:

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

After the sealing of the 144,000 John clearly tells us how many and where these elect, spiritual Jews came from....lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people.

Yes of all nations .

God is not a man as us as some sort of racist .

Satan's goal to deceive the all of the nations of the world that God is a Jewish man as King of kings A law of the fathers commandments of men

God's people used in parables. Not God's race .

A remnant of Israel, not all Israel is born again Israel, Some of the Jews remained under the spirit of Jacob (the deceiver) non redeemed Israel


She was renamed by the Father in Isaiah 62. Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world

Literally "residents of the city of Christ" .Prepare for His bride the church named after her husband Christ

A remnant of the Christians will be saved .Not all that name Christian are born again. No differnce between the word Israel not all born again

The 144,000 the bride pictured in the parable below

Revelation 12King James Version And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

 

[CrowCross]

"the Jewish king who claims to be God will be revealed."

Would this not be the anti-christ? The man of lawlessness, the son of destruction. 2 Thes 2:3

 

[CrowCross]

I agree~No man knows the years, month, day nor hour of the Lord's coming, the best we can do is get within the little season, and even the little season as far as I can tell has already lasted two hundred years, or so, and it is closing, yet we just do not know how close that day is. Even in my own days, the days of Lot, are coming out even more so than ever before. So. we should stay in a state of being ready, by working and doing the the most we can for the kingdom of God.

I agree....it's closing. As pointed out in post 25 as technology increases to the point it's all possible.

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

Yes, after the necessary humbling process of the Judgement the faithful will be changed from mortality to immortality in an instant.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
When do you consider that the faithful dead will appear before the Judgement Seat, after which they will receive the change of body?
Kind regards
Trevor

I was a Christadelphian for some years. And I know their reasoning for rejecting that the just will be resurrected with an immortal body, which Paul calls a spiritual body.
They assume that everyone who is to be resurrected, the just and the unjust, will need to be judged. And those who are judged acceptable will be changed to having a spiritual body, while those judged unjust, will die a second death.

With this reasoning, the Christadelphians are obligated to change the entire idea of being “raised” to mean something other than being resurrected to life again.

For the Christadelphian, being “raised” from the dead means that the person will be given an immortal body some time after he is resurrected from the dead. They must put forth this false idea because they have all persons standing before the judgment seat where it will be determined who is to be just or unjust.

The Christadelphians reject the idea that the just are resurrected or raised from the dead clothed with God’s righteousness and are to stand in judgment against those who are raised or resurrected unjust.

IOW, for the Christadelphian, the unjust are NEVER raised from the dead because, to them, being “raised” means something that occurs after being resurrected.
Therefore, only the just are “raised” from the dead, because to them, being raised means to grow like a plant to have a spiritual body at some point after being resurrected.

It is therefore incorrect for the Christadelphian to say that the unjust will be “raised “ from the dead.

I will show you what they say in their statement of faith to prove that they reject the idea of being raised from the dead incorruptible as Paul claims.

In their statement is a list of “doctrines we reject”. Look at what they say about the resurrection of the just:

“17.We reject the doctrine - that the dead rise in an immortal state.”

Paul says of the faithful, that they will be raised incorruptible

The Christadelphians say that the faithful will NOT be raised in an immortal state and at the same time say they will be raised.

The Christadelphians REJECT what Paul’ says in favor of what John Thomas says. And they can’t even see the absurdity in their belief.

When I pointed out their rejection of Paul and the absurdity in their belief they disfellowshipped me. Good riddance.

 

[LeviR]

Would this not be the anti-christ? The man of lawlessness, the son of destruction. 2 Thes 2:3

Certainly it is. While there are many antichrist, there will be a man called the Antichrist.
An antichrist is one who denies that Jesus’ flesh was like all the rest of man. It is a denial that Jesus’ nature was like all the rest of the children of God.

The Antichrist to come is a man who will claim for himself to be God and who will have the daily sacrifice taken away and the abomination which makes desolate set up instead. He will be a Jew. He is called the little horn in Daniel 7. A horn represents a king. Therefore, the Antichrist will be a king of Israel.
In Daniel 2, the potters clay in the image represents the Jewish people who do not mix with their evil neighbors.
However, they will join themselves in covenant agreement with those who hate them and the king of Israel will give his power to the beast. The beast represents the leader of the nations who will turn on Jerusalem to destroy the harlot.

 

[Carbon]

Then you would believe wrong.

Actually, I believe I would be correct.

Wrong kind of crown.
One of the four living creatures isn't going to command Christ to come.

This rider is the ant-christ. Jesus shows up on the true white horse in Rev 19.

I disagree.


Question, who do you believe is the he in Daniel 9:27?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9.

 

[LeviR]

Question, who do you believe is the he in Daniel 9:27?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9.

The confirming of the covenant with many for one week(7 years) is in Revelation spoken of as “sealing the servants of God in their foreheads”. It is the time when many shall run to and fro whereby knowledge will be increased.

The “he” who will confirm the covenant with many is the Messiah.

In the midst of the 7 years, the daily sacrifice will cease and the abomination of desolation will be placed in its stead.

This refers to the great tribulation at the end of the world or system of governance before the world to come or kingdom of God be established.