The four horsemen of the apocalypse

[TrevorL]

Greetings Crowcross,

When did this happen in history?
Rev 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
The answer.....never. The 4 horses are still future.

One thing to note is that some aspects of these Seals are symbolic. The Continuous Historic view has been accepted in our fellowship since at least our major pioneer John Thomas wrote his thorough five volume "Eureka - An Exposition of the Apocalypse", starting in 1861. There has been much written in our fellowship endorsing this view since then,

A major more recent publication "The Apocalypse Epitomised" by HP Mansfield in 1977 is a very useful reference book and summary. He nominates the following time periods for the Seals:
1st Seal: Progress of Christianity: The Empire at Peace AD 96-183
2nd Seal: The Roman Horse Red with Civil Blood AD 183-211
3rd Seal: Famine and Distress AD 212-235
4th Seal: Widespread Violence and Death AD 235-303
5th Seal: Ecclesial Tribulation AD 303-311
6th Seal: National Upheaval AD 312-324

Another interesting booklet is "A More Sure Word of Prophecy - A Reference Document which substantiates the Historical understanding of Prophecy" by Jonathan Burke 2004. An interesting feature of this treatise is a list of many Commentators or Expositors who have over the years endorsed the Historic view of the various prophecies.
His Table has the following columns:
Seal 1: Gospel Era 1st C; Seals 2-4: Specific war/famine/plague events in empire 2nd-3rd C; Seal 6: Constantine victorious

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Here is a book that got me started out on the right track many years ago:

The Four Horsemen - Rev. Herman Hoeksema, SpindleWorks

Not crazy about them referring to him as "Rev" and mostly likely neither would Mr. Hoeksema.

His writing on Revelation was overall very good. But, every man must judge for himself.

For myself, I'm with Mr. Hoeksema concerning the four horsemen with a few minor difference.

https://tbc.tn-biblecollege.edu/files/tbc/resthistlib/Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf

It has been a while since I read this one, but to the best of my memory, I like many things he said.

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings Crowcross,

One thing to note is that some aspects of these Seals are symbolic. The Continuous Historic view has been accepted in our fellowship since at least our major pioneer John Thomas wrote his thorough five volume "Eureka - An Exposition of the Apocalypse", starting in 1861. There has been much written in our fellowship endorsing this view since then,

A major more recent publication "The Apocalypse Epitomised" by HP Mansfield in 1977 is a very useful reference book and summary. He nominates the following time periods for the Seals:
1st Seal: Progress of Christianity: The Empire at Peace AD 96-183
2nd Seal: The Roman Horse Red with Civil Blood AD 183-211
3rd Seal: Famine and Distress AD 212-235
4th Seal: Widespread Violence and Death AD 235-303
5th Seal: Ecclesial Tribulation AD 303-311
6th Seal: National Upheaval AD 312-324

Another interesting booklet is "A More Sure Word of Prophecy - A Reference Document which substantiates the Historical understanding of Prophecy" by Jonathan Burke 2004. An interesting feature of this treatise is a list of many Commentators or Expositors who have over the years endorsed the Historic view of the various prophecies.
His Table has the following columns:
Seal 1: Gospel Era 1st C; Seals 2-4: Specific war/famine/plague events in empire 2nd-3rd C; Seal 6: Constantine victorious

Kind regards
Trevor

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say....Unless God snuck the 4 horses into history....there is no record of the 4 horsemen, symbolic or not. When did a 1/4 of the world's population die? When did it cost the world's population a days wages to make a loaf of bread?

The 4 horsemen are future....as in after the harpazo of the church,.

 

[LeviR]

Greetings Crowcross,

One thing to note is that some aspects of these Seals are symbolic. The Continuous Historic view has been accepted in our fellowship since at least our major pioneer John Thomas wrote his thorough five volume "Eureka - An Exposition of the Apocalypse", starting in 1861. There has been much written in our fellowship endorsing this view since then,

A major more recent publication "The Apocalypse Epitomised" by HP Mansfield in 1977 is a very useful reference book and summary. He nominates the following time periods for the Seals:
1st Seal: Progress of Christianity: The Empire at Peace AD 96-183
2nd Seal: The Roman Horse Red with Civil Blood AD 183-211
3rd Seal: Famine and Distress AD 212-235
4th Seal: Widespread Violence and Death AD 235-303
5th Seal: Ecclesial Tribulation AD 303-311
6th Seal: National Upheaval AD 312-324

Another interesting booklet is "A More Sure Word of Prophecy - A Reference Document which substantiates the Historical understanding of Prophecy" by Jonathan Burke 2004. An interesting feature of this treatise is a list of many Commentators or Expositors who have over the years endorsed the Historic view of the various prophecies.
His Table has the following columns:
Seal 1: Gospel Era 1st C; Seals 2-4: Specific war/famine/plague events in empire 2nd-3rd C; Seal 6: Constantine victorious

Kind regards
Trevor

There is a book that actually names the players involved in Revelation, It’s called the Bible.

If you’re wondering who the Whore is, look to the prophecy of Ezekiel 16 for one example. His prophecy is mostly of the last days.

If you think the Whore is the Popes and RCC, you’ll have to look to the fairytales of other writers like John Thomas because you won’t find Popes or the RCC in any Scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

Here is a book that got me started out on the right track many years ago:

The Four Horsemen - Rev. Herman Hoeksema, SpindleWorks

Not crazy about them referring to him as "Rev" and mostly likely neither would Mr. Hoeksema.

His writing on Revelation was overall very good. But, every man must judge for himself.

For myself, I'm with Mr. Hoeksema concerning the four horsemen with a few minor difference.

https://tbc.tn-biblecollege.edu/files/tbc/resthistlib/Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf

It has been a while since I read this one, but to the best of my memory, I like many things he said.

There appears to have been a lot of events in history that some have considered as the "mark".


So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

But I ask....where are the harmful and painful sores?

Until now, or should I say the technology hasn't been around for such a mark to exist planet wide.
The technology may very well be here...perhaps not exactly in the form presented below, but something very similar.

This is something we can do right now.

Currently stores such as "Whole Foods" are developing systems

Whole Foods Allows Customers To Pay With Palm Scanners—Here’s How It Works (article)​

This is but a stepping stone. As the One World Beast System is established these technologies will merge.

There are many spokes to this wheel...CBDC...is yet another. ....and will be tied together.

 

[LeviR]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say....Unless God snuck the 4 horses into history....there is no record of the 4 horsemen, symbolic or not. When did a 1/4 of the world's population die? When did it cost the world's population a days wages to make a loaf of bread?

The 4 horsemen are future....as in after the harpazo of the church,.

Many of the commentators of the Restoration Movement completely remove the Jewish people from the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation.
This is a mistake. The Jewish people and the land of Israel(earth) have always been the main subject of all of prophecy and are so in both Daniel and Revelation.

The fourth part of the earth refers to three tribes of the house of Israel. 3/12.
When the seal is given to the executioners under the pale horse, it is to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 6:8

Eze 14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land,and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

Eze 14:16
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the landshall be desolate.

Eze 14:17
Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword,go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

Eze 14:18
Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

Eze 14:19
Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour outmy fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

Eze 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Eze 14:21
For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Let the prophets speak!

 

[CrowCross]

The fourth part of the earth refers to three tribes of the house of Israel. 3/12.
When the seal is given to the executioners under the pale horse, it is to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 6:8

I doubt it.

Too much biblical gymnastics involved.

 

[LeviR]

I doubt it.

Too much biblical gymnastics involved.

The connection between Rev 6:8 and Ezekiel 14:21 is unmistakable.
But the dreamers will dream.
It’s best to be informed by the prophets and not commentators or videos.

 

[LeviR]

I doubt it.

Too much biblical gymnastics involved.

I joined up with the Christadelphians some years ago even though I am a futurist and believe the Harlot of Revelation to be Jerusalem.

When I discussed my belief with certain members of Christadelphia, I was told that the idea of the Antichrist as a Jewish king was never believed by anyone until an RCC commentator invented it during the counter-reformation.

Is that true?

Of course not.

See the views of Irenaeus and Hippolytus to name a couple well before the counter- reformation.
The Christadelphians lie to prospective members.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

you’ll have to look to the fairytales of other writers like John Thomas because you won’t find Popes or the RCC in any Scripture.

I consider that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy and the RCC and I do not need John Thomas to teach me that, as I consider that it is obvious. This prophecy also speaks of the three Papal States and the 1260 years that the RCC persecuted the faithful. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 especially lay the foundation of the Continuous Historic view, and this is the basis of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of the Book of Revelation.

I was told that the idea of the Antichrist as a Jewish king

Not sure how you end up with this idea.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

I consider that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy and the RCC and I do not need John Thomas to teach me that, as I consider that it is obvious. This prophecy also speaks of the three Papal States and the 1260 years that the RCC persecuted the faithful. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 especially lay the foundation of the Continuous Historic view, and this is the basis of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of the Book of Revelation.

Not sure how you end up with this idea.

Kind regards
Trevor

No Pope or false church ever existed who is charged with killing the prophets. Only Jerusalem.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth

Israel’s earth.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Which Pope ever met a prophet?

None.

And that is why the “four sore judgments” of Eze 14:21 or “four horseman” of Rev 6:8 (same thing) are to come upon Jerusalem in the day of vengeance upon her.

 

[LeviR]

I would have stayed with the Christadelphians even though they have a false view of Daniel and Revelation.
But having a false view of the resurrection as they do is too much. And when I spoke up, they disfellowshipped me.

Beware of their false doctrine of the resurrection whereby they claim the faithful will not be raised immortal with a spiritual body that dies never again but with the same corruptible body they died with.
Scam.

1 Cor 15 speaks the truth.

 

[LeviR]

It’s interesting to note that Christadelphians John Thomas and his follower Robert Roberts both set dates for the time of the end due to their wrong use of day for a year prophecy.
Thomas said the end was 1848, and Roberts 1910.

Oops

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

No Pope or false church ever existed who is charged with killing the prophets.

I will leave discussing your rather unique view.

Beware of their false doctrine of the resurrection whereby they claim the faithful will not be raised immortal with a spiritual body that dies never again but with the same corruptible body they died with.

I believe the sequence is resurrection, judgement, reward of eternal life or rejection.

It’s interesting to note that Christadelphians John Thomas and his follower Robert Roberts both set dates for the time of the end due to their wrong use of day for a year prophecy. Thomas said the end was 1848, and Roberts 1910.

I am not sure of exactly what dates Thomas and Roberts decided on. We do not hold that they were inspired, as some other denominations claim for their leaders and even members. I consider that there are definitely some fulfilled prophecies based upon the day for a year principle, including the 1260 years of Daniel 7 and the 2300 years of Daniel 8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again LeviR,

I will leave discussing your rather unique view.

I believe the sequence is resurrection, judgement, reward of eternal life or rejection.

I am not sure of exactly what dates Thomas and Roberts decided on. We do not hold that they were inspired, as some other denominations claim for their leaders and even members. I consider that there are definitely some fulfilled prophecies based upon the day for a year principle, including the 1260 years of Daniel 7 and the 2300 years of Daniel 8.

Kind regards
Trevor

The “rather unique view” as you call it, is directly what the Scripture says.
Jerusalem is charged with killing the prophets. Not the Popes as you claim. No Pope has ever even met a prophet let alone having killed them.

Judgement is left for the unfaithful who are found to be in contempt of Christ after believing and being baptized into him.
The faithful who remain such to the end, will stand in judgment against the unfaithful. The faithful will have been raised with immortal bodies while the unjust with mortal bodies.
That is where the Christadelphians fail. They fail by rejecting 1 Cor 15. They assume that everyone standing at the judgment seat is mortal. Nope.

Thomas and Roberts were wrong in determining the end because of their false use of day for a year prophecy of Daniel.

The correct interpretation of the end, comes after the resurrection and translation of the faithful, as they are to be the executors with Christ to bring about the end with the judgments that have been written.

 

[LeviR]

The judgements upon Jerusalem are to be executed by Christ and his immortalized saints. These judgements come in the form of the sword, famine and pestilence as described by the prophets from Moses on down.
Christ and his saints will be acting behind the scenes as the unseen. The judgements will be seen only as they are occurring on the earth.
Those who die by the sword will die by men. It will be man killing man.

In Revelation, when we read of the war in heaven, this heaven refers to the seat of authority of men. And the fighting of Micheal and his angels against these men describes how Michael will be acting unseen executing the war of men against each other.

Just as it was in done in the O.T.

 

[Red Baker]

No Pope or false church ever existed who is charged with killing the prophets. Only Jerusalem.

I'm not here to defend Trevor, but will speak for myself.

You are also making statements the scriptures will not support.

I probably need to start a thread on this subject without hijacking the present one concerning the four horsemen of Revelation 6. I'll be very brief.

But Revelation 17, is clear concerning Mystery Babylon, the religious part of Mystery Babylon being the great whore who have killed God's people. The religious part of Mystery Babylon the great, which includes all false churches/prophets living in Babylon ~ which is this world system, which is antichrist in their minds/hearts/life. Revelation 17 address the religious sector of Mystery Babylon, while Revelation eighteen deals with the commerce, entertainment sector of Babylon. So, in revelation 17 we read:

Revelation 17:6​

“And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.”

Have you ever read: "Fox book of Martyrs"? literal Jerusalem is not even on John's mind~it must be force into these scriptures.

No Pope has ever even met a prophet let alone having killed them.

Sure they have (yet Revelation 17 is not by any means limited to the RCC as some try to make it) ever heard of Martin Luther, to name just one among hundreds? Of course you have, and so has many popes past and present.

That is where the Christadelphians fail.

They are part of the great whore, just as many are. There may very well be some sincere, godly folks among them, that I would not judge, but their teachings are antichrist on many levels.

 

[Tambora]

Those who claim the book of Revelation and the harlot woman has to do with the pope and the RCC would do just as well to claim it’s about Joseph Smith and the Mormons.

Ask Daniel. It’s about what is to befall his people in the last days.

Dan 10:14 - Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Wouldn't Daniel's people be the faithful ones like He is?

 

[LeviR]

Wouldn't Daniel's people be the faithful ones like He is?

Daniel’s people are the Jewish people.
The clay in the image of Daniel 2 represents the Jewish people.
The allusion to what is spoken by Daniel regarding the clay is seen as it was in the days of Noah when the sons of God mingled themselves with the daughters of men.
This disobedience of mixing themselves with those out of the way was the reason God brought the flood to destroy them all except the remnant of Noah and his family.

When Christ returns, and the sealed up judgments of God are executed, the Jewish people or Israel, who is called God’s firstborn son, will again fall into idolatry with their evil neighbors by mingling themselves with them in covenant or agreement.
This time is referred to as the time of Jacob or Israel’s trouble. When the people will worship the beast and his image and when the Jewish king who claims to be God will be revealed. The man of sin, son of perdition.
This will bring the final Judgment upon God’s people, the Jews.

And after these sore judgments are executed upon Jerusalem and her people, God will turn His attention to the nations who invaded the land of Israel as God’s sword of His anger against His people, and they too will fall on the mountains of Israel. And those who remain will be driven back to their own lands.

Then God’s kingdom will be established on earth and in Jerusalem by the remnant of the faithful Jews who win the victory over the red dragon king Antichrist of the Jews and the warring nations.

 

[Red Baker]

Wouldn't Daniel's people be the faithful ones like He is?

Yes.

Daniel 12:1​

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

This without question has reference concerning the very elect, which the Jewish people are not, even though some were, and are, yet thy are not as a nation considered the children of God's promises.