The Atonement

[Eleanor]

Lol, if God causes something, its a gift friend.

The Noahic flood was a gift?

 

[brightfame52]

The Noahic flood was a gift?

Im speaking about Spiritual Blessings, like Faith,Repentance etc, try to stay in the context of the discussion please.

 

[Eleanor]

Im speaking about Spiritual Blessings, like Faith,Repentance etc, try to stay in the context of the discussion please.

Then let's not make comments that go outside the discussion, because that opens the door to responding to them.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I said you contradict yourself. And now you're moving the goal posts and acting silly.

(*Folks, you always know when someone is caught when they start with the "So are you saying" and end up with some accusation that doesn't resemble anything you've stated.)

Again: You contradict yourself. Since faith is caused by God, it can never be the work of man.

That's your contradiction.

I dont see the contradiction. God causes men to do good works. Like believing, its an act of the regenerated man and its by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The believing here is an active tense verb done by the person, however the believing was because of Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Then let's not make comments that go outside the discussion, because that opens the door to responding to them.

It wasnt outside of the discussion, it was in the midst of the discussion.

 

[Eleanor]

I dont see the contradiction. God causes men to do good works. Like believing, its an act of the regenerated man and its by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

The believing here is an active tense verb done by the person, however the believing was because of Grace.

Your heretical doctrine of
1) faith being a work (where "works" in the NT is law keeping) and,
2) therefore, excluded as necessary for salvation

runs counter to the NT in its
1) faith not being a work, opposing faith to works (law keeping), setting faith apart from works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:21-22, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11), and
2) its requirement of faith as necessary for salvation (Eph 2:8).
.

 

[brightfame52]

Your heretical doctrine of
1) faith being a work (where "works" in the NT is law keeping) and,
2) therefore, excluded as necessary for salvation

runs counter to the NT in its
1) faith not being a work, opposing faith to works (law keeping), setting faith apart from works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:21-22, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11), and
2) its requirement of faith as necessary for salvation (Eph 2:8).
.

Believing is an act, which is a work. The greek word for work is ergon and it means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So if you say you are saved or Justified before God based on your act of believing, its works !

 

[civic]

Believing is an act, which is a work. The greek word for work is ergon and it means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So if you say you are saved or Justified before God based on your act of believing, its works !

Belief / faith is the opposite of works . You have it completely wrong . And scripture points that out in many places

 

[Eleanor]

Believing is an act, which is a work. The greek word for work is ergon and it means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
2. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So if you say you are saved or Justified before God based on your act of believing, its works !

You did not address authoritative NT apostolic teaching in Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:21-22, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11.

 

[brightfame52]

You did not address authoritative NT apostolic teaching in Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:21-22, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11.

I dont need to address all that. I fully believe them scriptures. Are you saying I need to take time and explain each one of those passages to you ? NOT !

 

[Foghorn]

Belief / faith is the opposite of works . You have it completely wrong . And scripture points that out in many places

Seems that boy is more messed up than a feather in a whirlwind.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Again its a shame you say that about Christs Atoning Death.

What does it do for the one, who never is Born again???

 

[brightfame52]

What does it do for the one, who never is Born again???

That means that one wasnt one for whom Christ died.

 

[brightfame52]

It ensures belief of the Truth

The death of Christ, as i have shown from scripture, ensures sanctification for those who He died Jn 17:17,19

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

So, Jesus death ensures the Sovereign sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, which results in belief of the Truth.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Its absolutely impossible for anyone whom Christ died, not to believe the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus, for the Holy Ghost of His, is for certain to lead every blood sanctified soul into the Truth Jn 16:13

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

So all those God wills to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2:4

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They will sooner or later be subjects of the Sovereign Sanctifying work of the Spirit unto belief of the Truth.

This is a accomplishment of the Atonement of Christ.

 

[civic]

It ensures belief of the Truth

The death of Christ, as i have shown from scripture, ensures sanctification for those who He died Jn 17:17,19

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

So, Jesus death ensures the Sovereign sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, which results in belief of the Truth.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Its absolutely impossible for anyone whom Christ died, not to believe the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus, for the Holy Ghost of His, is for certain to lead every blood sanctified soul into the Truth Jn 16:13

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

So all those God wills to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2:4

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They will sooner or later be subjects of the Sovereign Sanctifying work of the Spirit unto belief of the Truth.

This is an accomplishment of the Atonement of Christ.

None of which state it’s the atonement. So thanks for showing it’s only your opinion and not found in scripture. We are not born again / saved by the atonement. It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil. I have provided numerous scriptures proving this to be true which you ignore.

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.


Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.

Philippians 3:10 refers to the power displayed in the resurrection and the power that comes from it. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was a powerful demonstration of the power of God. Not only was Jesus raised up but we were raised up with Him (Ephesians 4:8; 2:6).

There is life-giving power of His resurrection. The resurrection power of God is His dunamis or explosive power. Resurrection life brings the life of God at our conversion when we are born again. (John 11:25 – 26; 1 John 5:12). The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are born again. We are changed, born of the Spirit, and we have the same life in us as He has, the Zoe life of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3-8.)

hope this helps !!!

 

[Eleanor]

None of which state it’s the atonement. So thanks for showing it’s only your opinion and not found in scripture. We are not born again / saved by the atonemenWet.

Scripture presents it this way:

We are born again by the sovereign act of the Holy Sprrit (Jn 3:3-6), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth (return of God's divine life within the immortal human spirit) than we did with our natural birth.
That re-birth is the resurrection (re-impartation) of eternal life, lost in the fall, within our immortal human spirit.

With that re-birth comes faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

And faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin,
whereby God declares you "not guilty," pronounces a sentence of acquittal, which is justification, a forensic righteousness (Ro 3:28),
and then imputes the righteousness of Christ to you (Ro 4:1-11).

It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil. I have provided numerous scriptures proving this to be true which you ignore.

It is the re-birth that is life giving, imparting resurrection life to us.

 

[civic]

Scripture presents it this way:

We are born again by the sovereign act of the Holy Sprrit (Jn 3:3-6), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth (return of God's divine life within the immortal human spirit) than we did with our natural birth.
That re-birth is the resurrection (re-impartation) of eternal life, lost in the fall, within our immortal human spirit.

With that re-birth comes faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

And faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin,
whereby God declares you "not guilty," pronounces a sentence of acquittal, which is justification, a forensic righteousness (Ro 3:28),
and then imputes the righteousness of Christ to you (Ro 4:1-11).

It is the re-birth that is life giving, imparting resurrection life to us.

See my new thread on the Resurrection and its distinction from the atonement. The atonement is only 1/2 of the gospel which does not give life. I'm getting tired of repeating myself so there is a thread on the specifics from scripture.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/jesus-resurrection-gives-life-not-his-death.518/

 

[Ritajanice]

Scripture presents it this way:

We are born again by the sovereign act of the Holy Sprrit (Jn 3:3-6), as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth (return of God's divine life within the immortal human spirit) than we did with our natural birth.
That re-birth is the resurrection (re-impartation) of eternal life, lost in the fall, within our immortal human spirit.

With that re-birth comes faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

And faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin is salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin,
whereby God declares you "not guilty," pronounces a sentence of acquittal, which is justification, a forensic righteousness (Ro 3:28),
and then imputes the righteousness of Christ to you (Ro 4:1-11).

It is the re-birth that is life giving, imparting resurrection life to us.

Excellent post,@Eleanor ....Amen!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That means that one wasnt one for whom Christ died.

Chuckle!! That's the "U", and "L" thing, then. And the "whosoever will" is false.

 

[brightfame52]

Chuckle!! That's the "U", and "L" thing, then. And the "whosoever will" is false.

The whosever will is the elect