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The "Arbitrary" Objection to Unconditional Election

Yes, God apprehended him. Even in that, Paul had a choice.
(josh shakes head)

So, if you were knocked off your ride, struck blind, and heard an audible voice ask you why you were persecuting him you'd think, "Meh, I've got a choice to deny reality and go about my life in open delusion now blind and helpless, my persecutorial spirit known to Jesus, the guy I know to be dead"?

Do you realize the choice you are suggesting is the choice to deny reality?
 
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Because Esau's history was written before he was even born.

It does not mean that Esau didn't have a choice.

And if Esau had made the decision to believe in God, God would have accepted him (John 6:37); and it would never have been written of him that God hated him.

Because all of these things happened, from God's perspective, from outside of time.
All of the names written in the Lamb's book of eternal life were writen during the six day the Holy Father did work.

The books will be opened Esau;s name will be thier Just as our Holy father planed Many names "the wide road" will be erased as if they never existed to begin with
 
Because Esau's history was written before he was even born.

It does not mean that Esau didn't have a choice.
It does limit his choices.
And if Esau had made the decision to believe in God, God would have accepted him (John 6:37); and it would never have been written of him that God hated him.
Esau did believe in God. He was nonetheless, not chosen by God to be among God's people.
Because all of these things happened, from God's perspective, from outside of time.
Yep. And you keep applying anthropomorphized psychology of volitional agency instead of divine eternity as the measure.
 
So, once again, we see the NLT takes liberty with the text but, despite using "holy people" the epistle to the Romans was in fact CLEARLY written to the saints.
But nowhere in the passage does it say that Romans is written only to the saints.

You think that Paul didn't have an evangelistic heart?

If he wrote Romans to the saints, it was so that the saints might be able to quote it to the unbelieving world in order that they might be ... God forbid ... saved!
 
I completely agree. The problem is you believe you have read the verse in its plain meaning but you haven't. The reason you have not done so is because the surrounding verses and the contexts stated by the scriptures itself were completely ignored and we've since learned there is a willful resistance to doing so.

No, we learn to things a saint must do. The verse is not about what an unregenerate nonbeliever must do to become saved, the verse is about the necessity of confession and faith among those already saved.
You have obviously become biased in your interpretation of these verses because of your Calvinistic bent on things.

Romans 10:9 clearly teaches that being saved is the result of (in short) "calling on the name of the Lord".

Why do you want to believe that you are saved apart from taking that step?

Is it not because you have not done what it might take to be saved and yet want to believe that you are saved?

You want to believe that you don't have to do anything in order to procure salvation.

And that, my friend, may indeed be a fatal mistake for you.

Because if there is something that you must do, and you don't do it because you don't think you need to do anything, you will not do what it might take in order to procure salvation.

The result: you will not be saved on your day of judgment.
 
As I stated previously, proof-texting is always bad practice. So too is eisegesis. That one sentence should never be read apart from its surrounding text and that is what you've done and continue to do despite being shown how the entire Romans 10 narrative precludes the interpretation you've assigned to it under the auspices of "plain reading." Read it plainly in its stated context and it does not say what you make it say. It is about the necessity of faith and confession among the saints, NOT how an unregenerate nonbeliever becomes saved.
You seem to think that Paul didn't have an evangelistic heart so that he wrote his epistles only to those who were already saved.

That isn't what I find in holy scripture.

Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

So, in the very context of Romans 10:9, Paul declares that he has an evangelistic heart. Why, then, wouldn't he write some things that apply to the salvation of the unbeliever?
 
(josh shakes head)

So if you were knowcked off you ride, struck blind, and heard an audible voice ask you why you were persecuting him you'd think, "Meh, I've got a choice to deny reality and go about my life in open delusion now blind and helpless, my persecutorial spirit known to Jesus, the guy I know to be dead"?

Do you realize the choice you are suggesting is the choice to deny reality?
Some people, when faced with a decision to receive Christ, do even that.

I've seen it.
 
All of the names written in the Lamb's book of eternal life were writen during the six day the Holy Father did work.
They are written from the perspective of the author of the book existing outside of time.
 
But nowhere in the passage does it say that Romans is written only to the saints.
I understand. I've often cited the malpractice of "onlyism." I addressed this: the letter was written to the saints in Rome, those called of Christ and everything in the letter should be read that way unless there is something in the text itself indicating some other group is being discussed. I then went through the chapter before, the chapter itself, and the one following to show 1) there is nothing identifying another group and 2) all the content in those three chapters precludes any interpretation rendering verse 9 is about how an unregenerate nonbeliever becomes saved. The "you" is the saints." The "you" is never "unregenerate nonbeliever." If you, justbyfaith, re-read that chapter replacing the words "you" and "us" and "we" with "unregenerate nonbeliever" you'd almost immediately render the chapter nonsensical.

Try it.
You think that Paul didn't have an evangelistic heart?
non sequitur

What I know is that the day he was knucked off his donkey and struck blind he was a persecutor of Christ and a murderous conspirator.
If he wrote Romans to the saints, it was so that the saints might be able to quote it to the unbelieving world in order that they might be ... God forbid ... saved!
There is no question he wrote the letter to saints in Rome because that is explicitly stated in the salutation of the letter, and he was not so that they would pervert his words as you've done. It was so they would understand the necessity of faith and confession even after their conversion from life to death.
I think that you can't see it because you have blinders on.
Ad hominem
Some people, when faced with a decision to receive Christ, do even that.
Yes, but it is not because of their decision; it is because they are bound in sin and dead.
I've seen it.
Anecdotal report.
No; for his act of selling his birthright to Jacob was an act of unbelief.
LOL!!!!! The text of Romans unilaterally excludes that as a possibility! The text explicitly states the reason God hated him had nothing to do with either man and God's mercy DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE MAN, HOW HE WILLS OR HOW HE RUNS.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

The entire narrative is about God's will and purpose and at the expense of human will and human works. Jacob was NOT a better man that Esau. He was a conniver from his first act all the way up to the day he and Esau were reconciled (and beyond). He thought Esau hated him and tried to appease the imagined estrangement by sending huge amounts of wealth to Esau before Esau arrived at Jacob's camp. Jacob fearing the worse went out to meet Esau and upon their greeting.

Genesis 33:8-9
And he (Esau) said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he (Jacob) said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord." But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.”

God had already blessed Esau with incredible wealth of his own.

But he was not heir of the covenant. He had not been chosen. He had not been called. He had not been commanded.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Read through the Beatitudes. Many times it says, "they have their reward." Esau grew up in the exact same house with the exact same father learning many of the exact same spiritual truths lessons. By birth the birthright was his, but God had other plans and God had decided those plans before either man was ever born. God, nonetheless, blessed Esau. He had his reward on earth.

And if he ever did make a profession of faith then it was only because God decided He would save the squanderer. When Paul leverages Jeremiah's Potter and clay he writes about noble and ignoble purpose, but the truth of Esau and Jacob is that one was a squanderer and the other a grifter. Neither man was righteous in his own right and God would have been within His divine providence to see both twins still-born. He could have easily given Isaac another son to carry on the promise (and the bloodline).

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Romans 10:9 was written to the saints, those called of Christ, and it was written to remind them of the necessity of faith and confession after conversion. That same message runs throughout the epistolary and Paul was not the only one who preached it.

2 Peter 1:3-11
...seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


The were already-saved readers. They'd already inherited the kingdom. They had everything they needed to live a godly life and could even participate in the divine nature.

But they needed to add to their faith. The NLT with which you reported an affection, states, "Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge..." The KJV states, "add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge..."

  • We have been saved.
  • We are being saved.
  • We will be saved.

The "We" is the regenerate believer in God's resurrected Son, the saints, those called of Christ. Romans 10:9 falls into the-already-saved-being-saved-will-be-saved category and not the not-yet-saved-never-to-be-saved-by-their-own-fleshly-effort category.
 
I understand. I've often cited the malpractice of "onlyism." I addressed this: the letter was written to the saints in Rome, those called of Christ and everything in the letter should be read that way unless there is something in the text itself indicating some other group is being discussed.

There is something in the text itself that indicates another group than the saints is being discussed. They are not yet saved; they shall be saved.

  • We have been saved.
  • We are being saved.
  • We will be saved.

The "We" is the regenerate believer in God's resurrected Son, the saints, those called of Christ. Romans 10:9 falls into the-already-saved-being-saved-will-be-saved category and not the not-yet-saved-never-to-be-saved-by-their-own-fleshly-effort category.
Let's go with this for a moment. You are saying that Romans 10:9 "believers" have been saved and are being saved; but it is not true yet that they will be saved until they actually (in short) "call on the name of the Lord".

So, considering that they have been saved and are being saved, but it is not true that they will be saved at the judgment seat of Christ, are they of the elect or of the non-elect?

I believe that the logical way of looking at this would indicate that they are of the non-elect; until they fulfill the conditions by which they will be saved!
 
There is something in the text itself that indicates another group than the saints is being discussed. They are not yet saved; they shall be saved.
No, there isn't.
Let's go with this for a moment. You are saying that Romans 10:9 "believers" have been saved and are being saved; but it is not true yet that they will be saved until they actually (in short) "call on the name of the Lord".
That is not what I said. To be correct that would read,

...Romans 10:9 "believers" have been saved and are being saved; but it is not true yet that they will be saved until they actually (in short) "call on the name of the Lord".

So if you've been arguing with me all this time because you think the crossed out part is what I am saying then you have been mistaken and everything you've posted is a strawman. You are arguing against something that is not what I posted, not what I believe, not what the text of Romans 10 states, and not germane to my side of the conversation at all. You've wasted everyone's time, not just yours and mine.

  • The epistle to the Romans was written by Paul, a former Jew converted to Christ and thereby at that time a Christian, a bondservant of Christ.
  • The epistle to the Romans was written to the "saints," the holy people in Rome, those called of Christ, those having faith in Jesus.
  • The saints in Rome called of Christ are already regenerate believers in Christ. They are not unregenerate non-believers.
  • As saints, as people called of Christ, people who have faith in Christ, they call upon God. Unregenerate nonbelievers do not call upon God. This should be axiomatic in everyone's mind because, simply out, it is impossible to call upon someone or something not believed to exist. There is no calling upon Jesus is Jesus is not thought to exist. He's not the Messiah in the Jewish mind. Jesus is not called upon because he is not believed to exist as Messiah. In the Jewish mind he is an interloper, a false teacher and false prophet, a heretic, a demon whose power came from Beelzebub. No one calls on that guy.
  • As saints who believe in God and Jesus, they call upon God and do so routinely as a function of the Holy Spirit's work within them. It is because they have received the spirit of adoption that they cry out, "Abba! Father!"
  • Being saved, they will be saved. And living in the world in which they were persecuted (Paul and Peter would soon be martyred in Rome) it was important they remember to continue to believe and call upon God.

There is no mention of nonbelievers in Romans 10.
So, considering that they have been saved and are being saved, but it is not true that they will be saved at the judgment seat of Christ, are they of the elect or of the non-elect?
Again, you're arguing a strawman and there's no excuse for it because I have explicitly stated they will be saved, nt that their salvation was not real and not inevitable. I'd like you to stop misrepresenting what I have posted.
I believe that the logical way of looking at this would indicate that they are of the non-elect; until they fulfill the conditions by which they will be saved!
I understand. I also understand you arrive at that conclusion because of the assumptions you make about the text and the lack of exegesis that would better inform the plain reading of the text. I now also understand your resistance is founded on incorrectly understanding my posts. I hope things are clearer now, but there was never any basis for you to assume the Romans 10 text is written about non-believers. The premise is illogical. Nonbelievers do not and cannot call upon that which they do not believe exists.
 
I believe that God came to me because I chose Him because that is what the Bible teaches.

In Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39, there is clearly something that we do in order to procure salvation.
Sure, there is something we do to procure Salvation; but there's nothing we do to procure Election...

My years of experience on Forums, taught me we all talk past one another...

Categories; and Category Mistakes...
 
That is not what I said. To be correct that would read,

...Romans 10:9 "believers" have been saved and are being saved; but it is not true yet that they will be saved until they actually (in short) "call on the name of the Lord".
So if you've been arguing with me all this time because you think the crossed out part is what I am saying then you have been mistaken and everything you've posted is a strawman. You are arguing against something that is not what I posted, not what I believe, not what the text of Romans 10 states, and not germane to my side of the conversation at all. You've wasted everyone's time, not just yours and mine.
I am saying that what you have crossed out is what the scripture teaches in Romans 10:9.

Father, I ask You to remove the blinders from his eyes!
 
There is no mention of nonbelievers in Romans 10.
A lie. Those who have not yet (in short) "called on the name of the Lord", are of the non-elect; until they do what it takes to be born again.
 
Again, you're arguing a strawman and there's no excuse for it because I have explicitly stated they will be saved, nt that their salvation was not real and not inevitable. I'd like you to stop misrepresenting what I have posted.
But they will not be saved, according to Romans 10:9, if they have not done the two things prescribed for salvation in Romans 10:9.

You are saying that the salvation being spoken of in Romans 10:9 is at the day of judgment (not in the past or present)...

Fine. If they will not be saved on the day of judgment then they are of the non-elect.
 
I understand. I also understand you arrive at that conclusion because of the assumptions you make about the text and the lack of exegesis that would better inform the plain reading of the text. I now also understand your resistance is founded on incorrectly understanding my posts. I hope things are clearer now, but there was never any basis for you to assume the Romans 10 text is written about non-believers. The premise is illogical. Nonbelievers do not and cannot call upon that which they do not believe exists.
Romans 10:9 is clearly saying that those who will never (in short) "call on the name of the Lord" are of the non-elect.

Agree or disagree?

Lord, remove the blinders!
 
Sure, there is something we do to procure Salvation; but there's nothing we do to procure Election...

My years of experience on Forums, taught me we all talk past one another...

Categories; and Category Mistakes...
I have just been speaking on Romans 10:9 that those who do not (in short) "call on the name of the Lord" are not of the elect if they will never do so.

So, those who do, procure their being of the elect (they are guaranteed salvation at their day of judgment).
 
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