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The "Arbitrary" Objection to Unconditional Election

I am saying that what you have crossed out is what the scripture teaches in Romans 10:9.
What you say the Romans 10:9 "teaches" is not what it states.
Father, I ask You to remove the blinders from his eyes!
Lord, remove the blinders!
Those three posts are now going to be reported because of the baiting derogatory personal comment. It's usually more effective to start with oneself, asking, "Father, what am I not seeing? What is it You would have me understand from this conversation with brother Josh?"

Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

Practice it. It is what scripture teaches and the Holy Spirit inspires.

Philippians 2:3-4
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

Practice it. It is what the scriptures teach, and the Holy Spirit inspires; it keeps us from thinking we know better than others. Paul, quite possibly the greatest theologian to have ever been wrought by God wrote that.

Galatians 5:19-21 NLT
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: .....hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division..... and other sins like these.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: .....enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.... and things like these, of which I forewarn you............

Because Christians don't generally practice witchcraft and sorcery, some overlook the more ordinary works of the flesh. That one cr@ppy little sentence that could have been resisted revealed the flesh. It is not okay to passive-aggressively insinuate blindness in others under the auspices of prayer. Throughout this discussion I have observed a host of fallacies including but not limited to red herrings, non sequiturs, strawmen, false causes, false equivalencies, false dichotomies, construction errors and eisegetic interpretations and born them with patience. I can now add ad hominem. I noted them not as attacks or criticisms of your person but as justified correction because the Holy Spirit never inspires fallacy, I personally hope and trust in CCCF members to do the right thing, and none of us are perfect. If the posts are examined, it will be seen I have not made a derogatory insinuation about you personally. In the future I ask that you resist the urge but pay attention to it within yourself because that impulse is always a work of the flesh.

It's also where I draw the line. I do not do derision and I don't tolerate it from others, either. Some CCCFers here may, but I do not. I'll offer this: if last lines from Posts 116 and 119, and the opening comment of Post 117 are deleted, then I will delete everything in my post that followed it. Does that seem amicable?





Because the posts are also getting repetitive, I think it's best to move on. My views of Romans 10:9, Romans 10 as a whole, the Romans 9-11 narrative, and the stated context of the Romans epistle have been posted and there's no need for either of us to repeat what's already posted. See you in the next op.
 
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Clearly, I should have prayed for God to remove your blindness privately.

It gets frustrating when people can't see what is plainly set forth in front of them.

May the Lord help you to see what you are not currently seeing.
 
Opening Post (3 of 4)

In post #1, I stated the following.
Third, the charge of "arbitrary" needs a definition. What is meant by "arbitrary?" And does unconditional election actually lead to an arbitrary decision? These two question are the subjection of the third portion.
In this third installment of the opening post, I'll be focused upon the word itself; and I will examine whether or not unconditional election actually leads to the conclusion of an arbitrary decision. For those who may wish to catch up on the different installments of the opening post, feel free to read post #1 (1 of 4) and post #58 (2 of 4).

Examining the Charge of "Arbitrary"
This may very well be the most significant section of the four, since it deals with the objection most directly. The main points of this section are are really rather simple: (1) definition, and (2) is the charge legitimate. So let us jump into it.

First, the definition of the word "arbitrary" needs to be considered. Like many words, the term "arbitrary" has a semantic range. This just means that several different nuances or meanings are attached to the word. I will be utilizing the definition provided by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary website.[1]

The third definition of the term relates to law. The website says, "depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law." If this definition were pursued. Then the objection would be trying to connect the unconditional nature of God's choice to being up to God's personal discretion. This route would make a rather poor argument, since all Calvinists and Calvinism as a system holds God to be perfect in knowledge. Thusly, it would not be a problem for God to exercise the best and most competent personal discretion when making a decision that does not take into account a person's faith, good deeds, or merit into the equation. This could hardly be called a criticism of Calvinism, if this nuance of the term were used.

The second definition of the term relates to absoluteness. The website says, "not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority". The second definition also has a secondary nuance that focuses in upon the reality that often various dictators and governing bodies have functioned absolutely. Sometimes this results in tyranny. This is one of the reasons why the US government utilizes checks and balances (or at least this was the ideal) where the judicial, legislative, and executive branches all limit one another. In this case, then the argument would be that because God does not take into account a person's faith, good deeds, or merit into His consideration when choosing whom to save, then God's choice would be absolute and unrestrained in authority and power.

The first definition of the term seems most likely to fit the context of those who employ the objection. The website says, "existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will." If we follow this definition, then the argument would be as follows. God does not take into account a person's faith, good deeds, or merit into His consideration when choosing whom to same; this would mean that His choice would be reasonless, capricious, and seemingly random. This would be a much more substantial accusation in comparison to the other three. If true, then the argument would be saying that Calvinistic unconditional election amounts to an attack upon the character of God, in the form of attacking His perfect wisdom.

Second, we need to examine if the charge is legitimate. At the outset, I'll state it plainly. The charge is not legitimate, and unconditional election does not result in capricious, seemingly random choices in God. Unconditional election does not result in the sinful tyranny we see from dictatorial monarchs. And the third definition does not seem worth mentioning. However, with all that stated, what has led to that conclusion? The following are some reasons why I believe it is a non-sequitur fallacy to leap from unconditional election to the conclusion of arbitrariness on God's part.

The first reason concerns the second definition of arbitrary. I have personally encountered a poster who tried desperately to salvage his argument by appealing to this nuance of the term "arbitrary." However, this response is rather rare. I've only encountered it once. The reason here is simple. Certainly, God is absolute. He is the ultimate being of the universe. His is the ruler over all. The Bible affirms these. The Bible also affirms that God is holy. On account of these simple considerations of God's character--considerations which all Calvinists hold--God's absolute power does not mean that He is the same as a sinful human. God is holy. God is not going to be tyrannical. Hence, the only persuasive power this version of the "arbitrary" argument can hold is from a guilt by association fallacy. The comparison might be made to human dictators who were clearly evil and unrestrained; however, God is not a man. And God is holy. Thus, His absoluteness is not a blight upon Him.

The second reason pertains to the natures of humans and God. We have a massive category difference. Human beings can be negatively accused of playing god; this usually takes place when a human decides to take the life of another. However, God is actually God. He doesn't play God; rather, He is God. Thusly, He has certain rights and privileges as the Creator and judge of all. In Romans 12, for example, God tells us to not take vengeance precisely because God Himself has said, "Vengeance is mine." Since God is God, He sets up the rules. God Himself is the ultimate standard and the ultimate judge. It is a blight upon sinful men to be called tyrants, but it is not a blight upon God to be God.

The third reason addresses the first definition of "arbitrary." The persuasive power of the objection comes from the fact that certain considerations are removed from grounding God's choice/election of certain people to salvation. Simply wording the previous sentence in the way it was almost already answers the issue. Note, "certain considerations" does not mean "all considerations." Just because certain considerations (a person's faith, good deeds, or merit) are removed as a reason for God's choice does not mean that all considerations are removed as a ground for God's choice. The negation of those considerations does not mean then that God has abosolutely no reason whatsoever for His choice to save certain individuals. The magnification of His grace is one such reason. Note what has already been stated in the first and second installment regarding grace and God's nature (post #1 & #58).

Finally, this leads me to conclude that the false accusation of "arbitrary," in any deragatory way, is nothing less than a non-sequitur fallacy. The nature of unconditional election does not lead to the conclusion of "arbitrary". The charge of "arbitrary" simply does not follow. Thusly, it is a non-sequitur fallacy.

In the final installment, I'll be addressing the assumptions of the accusation back to the one who sent it, for it reveals a great deal about the objector.

================================
[1] One can easily access this website through a simple google search, so the link has not been provided. Please feel free to fact check me by going to the website.

(Opening Post 3 of 4)
 
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Why remove faith as a consideration if other considerations can influence God's decision?

Does not God explicitly say in His word that faith is in fact the catalyst for salvation?
 
Why remove faith as a consideration if other considerations can influence God's decision?

Does not God explicitly say in His word that faith is in fact the catalyst for salvation?
Conflation fallacy: What a person does in response to the gospel is different than a decision made by God before the foundation of the world. Your second question conflates the two. You may wish to reread post #1, for I already dispelled this conflation. God's choice brings about man's response of faith to the gospel. Why ask your second question when I already answered it in post #1?

First question: Why ask questions trying to get behind what scripture has revealed? For example, we can ask why God made everything is six days instead of three. We can ask why God revealed Himself as a Trinity rather than in some other way. Eventually, human rationalism (assuming that man's mind is the standard) has to give way to divine rationalism (submission to the ultimate mind of God) for Christians that love and serve the Lord. Why remove faith as a consideration if other considerations can influence God's decision? As 1 Corinthians 1-4 states, to nullify the pride of man and exalt the Lord. To magnify His grace and reveal His nature as the One who mercies whom He will mercy. Your question was already answered, as I stated in the post directly above yours (post #123). "The negation of those considerations does not mean then that God has absolutely no reason whatsoever for His choice to save certain individuals. The magnification of His grace is one such reason. Note what has already been stated in the first and second installment regarding grace and God's nature (post #1 & #58)." My main point here is that what "is revealed" takes precedent over what you may wish to know. Please take the time to read what I have written with understanding. I get the fact that you've been going back and forth with other posters on different topics than the 4 part op, so it is understandable that you have forgotten what you may have read. I only encourage you to carefully read what I have written before writing questions that were already answered. Thanks so much.

Finally, I noticed that you have yet to address the main point of post #123, which was that the charge of "arbitrary" is simply wrongheaded. Your questions are simply irrelevant to that point.
 
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@His clay,

I simply disagree with you when you say that faith is not a catalyst for salvation. I believe that the scriptures clearly proclaim that it is.

I believe in predestination according to foreknowledge and find nothing in scripture that is capable of changing my mind on the subject.
 
@His clay,

I simply disagree with you when you say that faith is not a catalyst for salvation. I believe that the scriptures clearly proclaim that it is.

I believe in predestination according to foreknowledge and find nothing in scripture that is capable of changing my mind on the subject.
Straw man: I never said "faith is not a catalyst for salvation." Could you point out what I said that led you to respond in this way? Perhaps, I have not been clear; and I would love to see what it was of what I wrote that led you to that conclusion.

Your views on predestination and foreknowledge are pretty much irrelevant to the subject of the opening posts, but your opinion is noted. I will remind you that the main subject of this thread is the arbitrary objection and its validity as it applies to Calvinism.
 
Straw man: I never said "faith is not a catalyst for salvation." Could you point out what I said that led you to respond in this way? Perhaps, I have not been clear; and I would love to see what it was of what I wrote that led you to that conclusion.

Your views on predestination and foreknowledge are pretty much irrelevant to the subject of the opening posts, but your opinion is noted. I will remind you that the main subject of this thread is the arbitrary objection and its validity as it applies to Calvinism.
Your question was already answered, as I stated in the post directly above yours (post #123). "The negation of those considerations does not mean then that God has absolutely no reason whatsoever for His choice to save certain individuals. The magnification of His grace is one such reason. Note what has already been stated in the first and second installment regarding grace and God's nature (post #1 & #58)."
Here, you have said that faith is not a consideration when it comes to God's choice to save a person: I conclude that you believe that faith is not a catalyst for salvation.

As for the arbitrary objection, I find that God's decision to save or condemn is arbitrary if it is not based specifically on the faith of the individual (or lack thereof).
 
Here, you have said that faith is not a consideration when it comes to God's choice to save a person: I conclude that you believe that faith is not a catalyst for salvation.
Faith IS a catalyst when it comes to Salvation: Sola Fide! In Calvinism, Faith is not a catalyst for Election...

Categories, versus Category Mistakes...
 
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Faith IS a catalyst when it comes to Salvation: Sola Fide! In Calvinism, Faith is not a catalyst in Election...

Categories, versus Category Mistakes...
Okay, I am going to need you to explain the difference between election and salvation in light of this doctrine.

(please explain it in such a way as to substantiate what you have said above).

Are not all those who are of the elect, ultimately saved?
 
Here, you have said that faith is not a consideration when it comes to God's choice to save a person: I conclude that you believe that faith is not a catalyst for salvation.

As for the arbitrary objection, I find that God's decision to save or condemn is arbitrary if it is not based specifically on the faith of the individual (or lack thereof).
Post #125 I already addressed your first sentence. I stated.

Conflation fallacy: What a person does in response to the gospel is different than a decision made by God before the foundation of the world. Your second question conflates the two. You may wish to reread post #1, for I already dispelled this conflation. God's choice brings about man's response of faith to the gospel. Why ask your second question when I already answered it in post #1?
Why didn't you answer my question when I asked it earlier?

Regarding your second sentence, I've already addressed your objection in Post #123, but I will also address the assumption expressed in your second sentence in the future. This will take place in the upcoming opening post part 4 of 4, which has yet to be written.
 
Faith IS a catalyst when it comes to Salvation: Sola Fide! In Calvinism, Faith is not a catalyst in Election...

Categories, versus Category Mistakes...
The opening of post #125, I already addressed the other poster's category mistake; but this was ignored.
 
The opening of post #125, I already addressed the other poster's category mistake; but this was ignored.
Forums are full of Posters like this. The shame is that they succeed; any Lurker who doesn't want to be a Berean is easy Prey. Posters like this who persist, finally catch a straggler sooner or later...
 
Forums are full of Posters like this. The shame is that they succeed; any Lurker who doesn't want to be a Berean is easy Prey. Posters like this who persist, finally catch a straggler sooner or later...
Wolves in sheep's clothing. Masquerading as an angel of light, but unable to keep the hate from seeping out.
 
I hope you don't mean that...

A catalyst is something that causes an important event to happen; but, we are saved through faith, not because of faith.
(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)

Especially NOT fleshly faith of a sinful mind.
 
More disparity between Calvinists.
Or a simple mistake by one Calvinist clarified and corrected by another with an expectation of joyous receipt and mutual edification. David and I both know Rev does not mean to assert faith causes salvation. His use of "catalyst" can be clarified, he has the wherewithal to do so, we have confidence in that ability, and he will do so.

Unity, not disparity, will result.

Where any disparity persists, it will still remain within the umbrella of orthodoxy within Calvinism.
 
Forums are full of Posters like this. The shame is that they succeed; any Lurker who doesn't want to be a Berean is easy Prey. Posters like this who persist, finally catch a straggler sooner or later...
Wolves in sheep's clothing. Masquerading as an angel of light, but unable to keep the hate from seeping out.
Why didn't you answer my question when I asked it earlier?
Remind anyone of someone we came here to avoid?
 
Or a simple mistake by one Calvinist clarified and corrected by another with an expectation of joyous receipt and mutual edification. David and I both know Rev does not mean to assert faith causes salvation. His use of "catalyst" can be clarified, he has the wherewithal to do so, we have confidence in that ability, and he will do so.

Unity, not disparity, will result.

Where any disparity persists, it will still remain within the umbrella of orthodoxy within Calvinism.
We can continue the conversation here:

 
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