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The "Arbitrary" Objection to Unconditional Election

Remind anyone of someone we came here to avoid?
Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
.
Luk 6:26, Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
 
Okay, I am going to need you to explain the difference between election and salvation in light of this doctrine.

(please explain it in such a way as to substantiate what you have said above).
Election is sometimes called "salvation planned," in distinction from "salvation realized," or "salvation manifested."
Are not all those who are of the elect, ultimately saved?
Yes.
 
Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
.
Luk 6:26, Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
What does that have to do with arbitrary objection to unconditional election?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

Job 38:37-38
Who can count the clouds by wisdom, or tip the water jars of the heavens, when the dust hardens into a mass and the clods stick together?

Malachi 4:2
But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.



I can off-topically copy and post irrelevant scripture, too. What I have yet to see is the correct handling of op-relevant scripture not proof-texted and eisegetically abused.
 
Are you trying to drive a wedge between brothers in Christ? That's the devil's job you know, and he doesn't need a hand.
No, that wedge is already between some Calvinists. My encouragement is that you find some doctrinal unity between yourselves.
 
What does that have to do with arbitrary objection to unconditional election?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

Job 38:37-38
Who can count the clouds by wisdom, or tip the water jars of the heavens, when the dust hardens into a mass and the clods stick together?

Malachi 4:2
But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.



I can off-topically copy and post irrelevant scripture, too. What I have yet to see is the correct handling of op-relevant scripture not proof-texted and eisegetically abused.
The scripture that I posted was in response to hateful comments by some posters, i.e. "Wolves in sheep's clothing. Masquerading as an angel of light, but unable to keep the hate from seeping out.".

I have not made any hateful comments to my recollection; but the poster in question has made several hateful comments towards me.
 
Will I observe any change in your behavior there in comparison to here? Let's see.

Just answer the questions asked, and try to do it as succinctly as you can.
Ask the questions again; and if I have not already answered them elsewhere, I will answer them here (just copy and paste if you are feeling lazy).
 
Election is sometimes called "salvation planned," in distinction from "salvation realized," or "salvation manifested."

Yes.
I will say that someone may be of the elect and yet they may not yet be saved; and that they cannot know whether or not they are of the elect unless or until they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

As soon as "salvation is 'realized' or 'manifested'" they can be certain that they are of the elect...via such passages as Ephesians 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16, and/or 1 John 5:13.

But of course, the Calvinist has no assurance of this.

Because it is said that if someone believes in Jesus but falls away or leaves the church later, they were never saved in the first place.

So, how does anyone know that they will persevere so that they don't fall away or leave the church? One cannot know the outcome of this question until they reach the end of their life...therefore they cannot know whether or not they are saved (of the elect) in the present moment.

Yet Calvinism boasts itself of the assurance that it brings to its adherents.

Its doctrines do not bring assurance to me; however I am assured of my salvation in that I know that I have done what it takes to procure salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

The true gospel carries with it the assurance of salvation:

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
 
The scripture that I posted was in response to hateful comments by some posters, i.e. "Wolves in sheep's clothing. Masquerading as an angel of light, but unable to keep the hate from seeping out.".

I have not made any hateful comments to my recollection; but the poster in question has made several hateful comments towards me.
It was also off-topic and irrelevant and thereby evidence of the flesh.
I will say that someone may be of the elect and yet they may not yet be saved; and that they cannot know whether or not they are of the elect unless or until they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

As soon as "salvation is 'realized' or 'manifested'" they can be certain that they are of the elect...via such passages as Ephesians 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16, and/or 1 John 5:13.
You sound like a Calvinist.
But of course, the Calvinist has no assurance of this.
Another lie about Calvinism. The "P" in TULIP is specifically about the assurance of salvation.
Because it is said that if someone believes in Jesus but falls away or leaves the church later, they were never saved in the first place.
.....because salvation is assured with the saved. Furthermore, it's the synergist that lacks assurance. S/he thinks his/her salvation is dependent upon their choice, not God's alone. If saved, the Calvinist knows his/her salvation is eternal even if s/he becomes fruitless, and evidence of a lack of salvation likely indicates the person never was saved. The synergist not only cannot know they are saved, and cannot know their salvation is permanent, they must believe they can and very well might lose their salvation if they so choose. They, not the monergist, are the ones likely never to know they are saved, if saved never to know assurance until the end, and at no point in between never know if they will not screw things up entirely and render the blood of Christ paid for their life worthless.

It is a particularly idolatrous soteriology.
So, how does anyone know that they will persevere so that they don't fall away or leave the church?
No one is the judge of anyone's eternal disposition, perhaps including their own because salvation is by grace through faith and not by or through the fickle will of sinful flesh. John told his readers, "whoever has the son has life," and he said he wrote those words so that we could know we have eternal life. He also said whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life, and that is how everyone, not just Calvinists, knows those who fall away never had Jesus in the first place. You cannot have life and then not have life. You can, however, have life and be fruitless.

And YOU are off-topic again. THIS OP is on unconditional election, not the perseverance of the saints.
One cannot know the outcome of this question until they reach the end of their life...therefore they cannot know whether or not they are saved (of the elect) in the present moment.
I know I am saved and I know no one can or will take away my salvation. Every Calvinist here will say the same and not because we are Calvinists, but because we are saved.
Yet Calvinism boasts itself of the assurance that it brings to its adherents.
Now you are contradicting yourself. In one sentence you say Calvinists cannot know they are saved and a few sentences later Calvinists are said to boast in the assurance of their salvation, and this is all a dodge to avoid the subject of unconditional election.
Its doctrines do not bring assurance to me;
That's because you are a troll. Stop being a troll and maybe the word of God will start making more sense to you.
however I am assured of my salvation in that I know that I have done what it takes to procure salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.
Salvation is not of you, and one reason it is not of you so that you cannot boast. You're also abusing proof-texted verses again because all three of those verses were said to people already living in a covenant relationship with God and not about those outside of a covenant relationship. God's covenants are ALWAYS monergistically initiated.

Huge failure in exegesis. This failure is quite possible not only the most frequently occurring error on your part, but also the most egregious.
The true gospel carries with it the assurance of salvation:

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
ROTFLMBO!!!!!

And that is how Calvinists KNOW they are saved, being saved, and will be saved. We KNOW salvation is assured because that is what scripture teaches. You just proved Calvinism correct! You also just contradicted yourself, again.

1 Corinthians 3:11-16
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Anyone building on the foundation of Christ will be saved. He may build on that foundation fruitlessly and have nothing to offer God in the end, he may emerge from God's testing charred and covered in soot but he will be saved. Those building on the foundation of the will of the sinful flesh are not saved and will not be saved.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain.....


Not even the apostle chose Jesus. They were chosen. Having been chosen they were appointed to bear fruit. They did not choose him. Synergists, apparently wrongly imagine they are better than the apostles and can not only choose Jesus on their own in their own will, but they do so believing the will of nonbeliever's sinful flesh is the condition that God decides their salvation.


It is not.
 
Remind anyone of someone we came here to avoid?
What I don't understand is why the staff here would allow a person, proven to be avoided over numerous posts, to continue posting in this forum? Isn't that subverting the very intention of the forum?
 
What I don't understand is why the staff here would allow a person, proven to be avoided over numerous posts, to continue posting in this forum? Isn't that subverting the very intention of the forum?
In hopes the person will finally play by the Rules. We don't have many active non Calvinists, we don't want to take our ball home unless we have to. You're right, he's had chance after chance. Maybe he will try harder to debate now, but being honest about things will cause him to Lose...

What do you suggest?
 
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What I don't understand is why the staff here would allow a person, proven to be avoided over numerous posts, to continue posting in this forum? Isn't that subverting the very intention of the forum?
I agree with @ReverendRV. It is a matter of not gaining the reputation of getting rid of all opposition. Rather it gives us the opportunity to sharpen our own skills, deep seat even more through articulation, our own convictions and defend them soundly. And trains us in steadiness and strength of character in our exchanges. (The last the hardest for me, but it is a sanctifying experience.) And it allows us to present our position alongside the claims and false claims. However the insults and irrelevancies are systematically being taken down as soon as they are seen.
 
I agree with @ReverendRV. It is a matter of not gaining the reputation of getting rid of all opposition. Rather it gives us the opportunity to sharpen our own skills, deep seat even more through articulation, our own convictions and defend them soundly. And trains us in steadiness and strength of character in our exchanges. (The last the hardest for me, but it is a sanctifying experience.) And it allows us to present our position alongside the claims and false claims. However the insults and irrelevancies are systematically being taken down as soon as they are seen.
Again, thank you for taking the time to share. This helps me to better understand. I'll keep trying to patiently interact with the poster. I still have a part 4 to write.
 
I'll keep trying to patiently interact with the poster.
Hey, it isn't easy. Maybe for some with a different temperament than mine. You would be shocked at what wants to come out of my mind and onto the page! But it accomplishes nothing good, so I submit to God and the devil flees from me and by His grace may I stand that ground.
 
I will say that someone may be of the elect and yet they may not yet be saved; and that they cannot know whether or not they are of the elect unless or until they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

As soon as "salvation is 'realized' or 'manifested'" they can be certain that they are of the elect...via such passages as Ephesians 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16, and/or 1 John 5:13.

But of course, the Calvinist has no assurance of this.

Because it is said that if someone believes in Jesus but falls away or leaves the church later, they were never saved in the first place.

So, how does anyone know that they will persevere so that they don't fall away or leave the church? One cannot know the outcome of this question until they reach the end of their life...therefore they cannot know whether or not they are saved (of the elect) in the present moment.

Yet Calvinism boasts itself of the assurance that it brings to its adherents.

Its doctrines do not bring assurance to me; however I am assured of my salvation in that I know that I have done what it takes to procure salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

The true gospel carries with it the assurance of salvation:

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Fake Christians cannot have God-given assurance of salvation, since they are not saved.

Real Christians have assurance of salvation, according to the Scripture you quoted at the end of your post (1 Thess. 1:5). Of course born again "Calvinists" have assurance of salvation.
 
I will say that someone may be of the elect and yet they may not yet be saved; and that they cannot know whether or not they are of the elect unless or until they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.
A very Calvinistic view with one exception. There is no "unless". If they are of the elect they will receive (believe in) Christ and His work to save them. Before that they are not even thinking about whether they are of the elect or not. They are still dead in their transgressions.
As soon as "salvation is 'realized' or 'manifested'" they can be certain that they are of the elect...via such passages as Ephesians 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16, and/or 1 John 5:13.
They believe because they are of the elect. Salvation is not about being realized or manifested. It is about believing the Savior---the One who saves.
But of course, the Calvinist has no assurance of this.

Because it is said that if someone believes in Jesus but falls away or leaves the church later, they were never saved in the first place.
The Calvinists has assurance because the scriptures tell him he has assurance. They know for one thing that it was God and not themselves that began this good work in them, and that He will finish it. They are not depending on themselves, they are depending on the faithfulness of God. Those who appear to believe in Jesus and fall away never did believe in Jesus. They may have believed He existed----even the devil believes that.The devil even knows who He is and tried to destroy His work of salvation before it even began. He tried to destroy it by killing Him on the cross, and in killing Him gave Him the victory.

My point is, to understand your own last assertion, study the parable of the sower. The proof is in the pudding.
So, how does anyone know that they will persevere so that they don't fall away or leave the church? One cannot know the outcome of this question until they reach the end of their life...therefore they cannot know whether or not they are saved (of the elect) in the present moment.
You see, that security is found in the very doctrines contained in Calvinism. God foreordains, predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies. Considering all that, it is God who preserves them, and God who transforms them more and more into the image of Christ.They don't keep themselves, God keeps them. And they know they are saved by what it is they believe, those very things that Jesus says give eternal life. And they know they are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. They know He says He will lose none who God has given Him, and they know it is God who gave them to Jesus. They know He says He will raise them up at the last day. And they believe all these things that the Bible tells us.
Its doctrines do not bring assurance to me; however I am assured of my salvation in that I know that I have done what it takes to procure salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.
What if you stop doing those things?
Where is believing in Hos 14:2?
Rom 10:9-13. What doe Jesus as Lord mean and are saying the words sufficient unto salvation? What does it mean that He was raised from the dead and what should be in your heart concerning that? The "whoever" is removing the distinction between Jew and Gentile---it is available to all nations and tongues and types. And as a side note----atheists often call on the name of the Lord when in dire distress and come out the other side still not believing in God and certainly not the work of Jesus. So qualify that also.
Acts 2:38 Many have been baptised in the name of the Lord who are never saved. So qualify "baptised in the name of the Lord."

What does it mean to you to believe in Jesus?
 
(Opening Post 4 of 4)

In post #1, the fourth main point was stated in the following way. “Fourth, we will look into the assumptions of the objector. (1) One assumption is that people do not have a choice when unconditionality is present in election. (2) The other assumption is that if the person is removed from a criteria for election, then God doesn't have a reason for His choice.” These assumptions can be observed by the following quotations.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.” (original quote in post #1)

As for the arbitrary objection, I find that God's decision to save or condemn is arbitrary if it is not based specifically on the faith of the individual (or lack thereof).” (taken from post #128)

The Interpretive Grid of False Assumptions

Introduction: When one learns from books dealing with interpretation, he finds a crucial concept. It is called distanciation. The concept is not difficult to comprehend; the main problem is actually practicing it. The concept refers to a modern reader’s ideas and assumptions, which are often read into various passages of scripture. The main idea is for the modern reader to “distance” himself from those assumptions in the interpretation of scripture. However, the most dangerous assumptions are those assumptions the interpreter does not realize he brings to the text.

A critical element of interpretation concerns “authorial intent.” This means that the original author intended a meaning during his time, culture, and audience. This means that the authorial intent of a biblical text (written before AD 100 and earlier) does not possess the assumptions that often modern interpreters impose upon it.

This small introduction of hermeneutics leads to a simple application of the same principle to discussions between Calvinists and those who employ the “arbitrary” objection. Those who utilize the objection often give away key assumptions that are being used to argue. Arguments are built upon certain foundations; but if those foundations are faulty, then it follows that the argument collapses with the faulty foundation.

As stated previously, the two key assumptions involve (1) the nature of choice-making, and (2) being overly focused upon human element in salvation.

Assumptions Regarding the Nature of Choice-making: I’ll be very candid and straightforward. I reject libertarian freedom and thusly the conception of choice-making that goes along with it. Often, this is informally called “free will.” Such a statement (free will) suffers from an extreme oversimplification of the real issue. Two critical elements will be addressed in light of their biblical contradiction. One assumption is that human choice-making is autonomous from God. The other is that human choice-making involves the ability to do otherwise.

The assumption that human choice-making is autonomous from God comes from the idea that if God causes a choice to be a certain way, then it isn’t really a choice. This is evidence by the fact that the objection says, “Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter”. The only way this statement could be true or make sense, is if one assumes that libertarian choice is the only possible way of viewing choice. In particular, if God makes a person’s destiny certain, then the person had no choice.

Let’s explore the issue a bit more. In Calvinism, the person who goes to hell makes accountable decisions based upon an enslaved, corrupt will. The nature of choice-making is such that a person always chooses in accord with their highest motive or preference. This doesn’t mean that choices are simple, since there are often various motives in competition within the individual. It just means that at the end of the day, regardless of the competition of various motivations, the person ultimately chooses based upon whatever option is most preferred. As Jonathan Edwards stated, “to choose is to prefer.” One option seems best to the individual. That is why it was chosen. What this means is that choices aren’t made in a causal vacuum. Choices have causal reasons.

“A person chooses because . . .” is a reality that describes everyday life and the reality present in the heart of sinful men in Scripture. Jesus tells people who cannot bear to hear Him, “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.” (John 8:45 ESV) Earlier Jesus tells them, “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.” (John 8:43 ESV) Here Jesus, the God-man, tells his opponents why they are having problems with His words. They cannot understand Him because they cannot bear to hear His word. The next verse points out their negative moral character, from a morally corrupt lineage (your will is to do your father's desires), which brings about their opposition toward the truth Jesus is presenting before them. Hence, precisely because Jesus tells them the truth, they do not believe. Note that their choice to reject is given a causal reason, their motivation and character is opposed to the truth.

Earlier in the book of John we see that another causal reason is given by Jesus for people’s choices. “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.” (John 3:19-20 ESV) Once again, one can see that people love darkness rather than light; and people hate the light because it exposes their evil deeds (evil choices).

We can ask the obvious now. Why would a person choose to follow Jesus if he hates the exposure of the light, and he hates the truth while preferring a lie? The obvious answer is that a person will not choose to believe what they believe to be a lie and hate.

We see the causal impact of preferences upon choice-making evidenced practically every single day by those who oppose Calvinism. They absolutely cannot choose otherwise than what they believe to be true. Their persistence against Calvinism demonstrates the fact that the libertarian view of human choice-making is false.

But there is yet another reason in Scripture that argues against the idea of autonomy from God. By “autonomy from God” is meant that people view their choices as uncaused with reference to God. They are their own ultimate cause of the choice that they make. Scripture simply demonstrates that this assumption is catastrophically mistaken.[1] We are told that God “upholds all things by the word of His power” (Heb. 1:3). We are told that “God gives to all men, life and breath and everything” (Acts 17:24-25). We are told that “in Him all things hold together” (Col. 1:17). We are told “from him and through him and to him are all things.” (Rom. 11:36 ESV) We are told something rather similar in 1 Corinthians 8. “yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Cor. 8:6 ESV) The idea of human ultimacy, with reference to God, is simply mistaken. Autonomy from God does not exist in God’s universe. Consequently, the idea that choices can be ultimate or autonomous from God is simply mistaken. Hence, it is proven that the view of choice-making, where the choice could be otherwise and/or ultimate is simply mistaken.

In conclusion, choices do not take place in a causal vacuum. They are caused by a person’s highest preference. For sinful human beings, this means that their moral corruption precludes their choice to believe in Christ. They prefer their sin, unless God acts graciously upon them to given them a preference for Christ and His work on the cross. Those whom God has not chosen to save do make choices. They are responsible for their choices, and their choices are sinfully precluded from choosing Christ because of their corrupt nature and corrupt preferences. Therefore, we must conclude that the statement, “Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter,” is simply false and mistaken. The statement only evidences false assumptions about choice-making and thusly misreads Calvinism.

(cont in next post)
 
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