The 12th apostle: Matthias or Paul?

[Fred]

We know who replace the false apostle Judas. Why is the apostle Jesus the son of man not listed among the 12 or Mary?

Because the Lord chose Matthias.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Rubbing Jewish flesh against other flesh does not represent the gospel.

Depends on which gospel [good news] you're talking about.

It looks to puff up men above all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)
It is Roman Catholic oral tradition passed on as a law of the atheist Jewish fathers. . . . . called a law of the fathers', commandment as I heard it through the father's grape vine.

Believe me, the Jews were not atheist. They believed in the One True God over the thousands of Gentile gods.

They have a need for a legion of disembodied worker with familiar spirit gods called patron saints (3550 and rising) like that of Rachel with her idol images or King Saul when God stopped from all forms of communication...
The apostles sent one (not venerable or puffed-up ones) They would never stand in the place of the abomination of desolation making the eternal unseen things of the gospel to no effect.
As apostles sent (empowered) by the Holy Spirit even today, We can plant the incorruptible born-again seed (Christ) and water it with the doctrines of God. But again, they as us today would never be part of the abomination of desolation claiming they were the power to believe God and power to work to please him. .

No, we plant the Seed of the Word of God and water it with the washing of the word.

It does not comes from dying flesh and blood of mankind.

Except a seed fall to the ground and die...

1 Corinthians 3-5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Ask yourself who sent you today.?

You'll never know.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Irrelevant.

Not only are there two different Greek words there are two different English words and you think that's irrelevant?
Good luck to you.

Peter was with the eleven (Acts 2:14).

Peter was among the twelve. Matthias was with the eleven (but he'll never be among the twelve as my brother Judas.

Go back to see who was added to the eleven in Acts 1:26.

Yes, and my brother Peter was in error, in the flesh, and sinned.
Man doesn't have the right nor the power to appoint apostles.
Tell me, if you agree that what Peter did was sanctioned by God and all one has to do is witness Jesus' baptism and resurrection why does the RCC still use that method of choosing their Popes why doesn't the Protestant Gentile Church do it that way anymore?

 

[jeremiah1five]

We know who replace the false apostle Judas. Why is the apostle Jesus the son of man not listed among the 12 or Mary?

Jesus named Judas and the rest 'apostles.'

13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Lk 6:13.

Calling Jesus a liar, eh?

 

[Fred]

Not only are there two different Greek words there are two different English words and you think that's irrelevant?
Good luck to you.

Prove your point with Greek-English Lexicons.
I'll get the popcorn for this.

Peter was among the twelve.

Peter was "with the eleven" (Acts 2:14).

And these twelve ("the apostles") were addressed in Acts 2:37.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus named Judas and the rest 'apostles.'

13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Lk 6:13.

Calling Jesus a liar, eh?

Thanks no I would hope not.

Jesus as a prophet apostle spoke the words of the father. The father named all to include the Son of man Jesus. He cried out for strength . . .not as I will . . . having no power living in an earthen body but as you will Holy Father the one will with power to please the Faithful creator.

Remember a prophet declares the will of another. An apostle is simply "one sent with prophecy" Beautiful feet inspired gospel work of God moving mankind according to the good purpose of his will.

It would be like my wife sending me on a adventurist grocery mission writing her loving will down etch in ink on stone white paper. . I am hoping I can find good help. But seriously when we make it into a religious word. Sometimes men can make certain words seem beyond our reach and the Spirit of God that works in dying mankind having no power .

Its why we must be careful how we hear our burdens can be made lighter; we have living hope beyond our last breath. Of this corrupted environment. Every living word has an inspired meaning hid from natural man who has no desire in respects the unseen things of eternal God.

Its why he sends us out two by two .A family of two or three that gather together under the hearing of faith as it is written. Christ is there the master teacher he teaches each one individually. . . .same with two or three million that gather.to hear his understanding as a labor of His love.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Prove your point with Greek-English Lexicons.
I'll get the popcorn for this.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Is 10:22.

Hebrew Word: שׁוּב
Transliteration: shûb
Strong's H#7725 - a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverb again.


27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:27.

Greek Word: σῴζω
Transliteration: sōzō
Strong's G#4982 - from a primary sos (contracted for obsolete saos, “safe”); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literal or figurative.)

Isaiah uses a word "RETURN" and Paul uses a word "saved" and neither mean the same thing.

Must be using butter in your popcorn because this one slipped out of your hands.

Peter was "with the eleven" (Acts 2:14).

Yes, there were eleven. Judas wasn't there.

And these twelve ("the apostles") were addressed in Acts 2:37.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37.

Yes, eleven apostles total. Judas wasn't there.

 

[Fred]

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Is 10:22.

Hebrew Word: שׁוּב
Transliteration: shûb
Strong's H#7725 - a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverb again.


27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:27.

Greek Word: σῴζω
Transliteration: sōzō
Strong's G#4982 - from a primary sos (contracted for obsolete saos, “safe”); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literal or figurative.)

Isaiah uses a word "RETURN" and Paul uses a word "saved" and neither mean the same thing.

Must be using butter in your popcorn because this one slipped out of your hands.

That's not the words used for numbered, so it has no bearing on your assertion.

Try again.

Judas wasn't there.

I know. Matthias was.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37.

Yes, eleven apostles total. Judas wasn't there.

Eleven plus one (Acts 2:14) = 12 (Acts 2:37)

Put the popcorn down and crack open a math book.

 

[Mr GLee]

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Is 10:22.

Hebrew Word: שׁוּב
Transliteration: shûb
Strong's H#7725 - a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitive or intransitive, literal or figurative (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverb again.


27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:27

Yes the born again remnant. All of Israel is not born again of God.some are simply outward Jew of dying flesh of mankind

 

[Eleanor]

I have responsibility to God. Acts is a historical and it doesn't teach what is right and what is wrong. It just records the first 30 years of the Jewish Church.

Oh, wow!

We get to sit in judgment on the apostles whom Jesus authorized to speak for him, declaring that whoever rejected what the apostles said were rejecting him (Lk 10:16).

You have demonstrated that we do not have the same authority for truth and, therefore, we have no basis for discussion.

 

[Mr GLee]

Oh, wow!

We get to sit in judgment on the apostles whom Jesus authorized to speak for him, declaring that whoever rejected what the apostles said were rejecting him (Lk 10:16).

You have demonstrated that we do not have the same authority for truth and, therefore, we have no basis for discussion.

I would offer the Father does the naming Jesus the Son of man he relays it as a prophet/ apostle. How beautiful are the feet of Jesus a messenger for the Father

 

[ChristB4us]

Please back up your response with biblical proof.

I remember someone judging the disciples for replacing Judas Iscariot with Matthias because they were supposed to wait. But if they had sinned against the Lord before Pentecost had come, would not the Lord rebuke them for it at Pentecost? I would say yes.

And when Paul was chosen to be a minister to the Gentiles, nowhere did God say that Matthias was not the one to replace Judas, but Paul was.

And there has been other disciples and apostles besides the 11 adding Matthias and the Lord adding Paul. There was also Barnabas.

Acts 4:36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

Acts 14:14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

The office of the apostles is not limited by the 12 at all.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I recall at one time in another Christian forum how someone had tried to convince everyone that there were only 12 disciples and that there can be only 12 disciples. Scriptures refuted that right early.

Now this mindset have succeeded to make the apostles appear as if it is limited by the twelve. It is not.

Down through history, the church may have dropped using the title of the apostle mayhap for fear of vanity, but that does not mean the Lord is not using any saved believer as an apostle even though they do not call themselves as such.

 

[Mr GLee]

I remember someone judging the disciples for replacing Judas Iscariot with Matthias because they were supposed to wait. But if they had sinned against the Lord before Pentecost had come, would not the Lord rebuke them for it at Pentecost? I would say yes.

And when Paul was chosen to be a minister to the Gentiles, nowhere did God say that Matthias was not the one to replace Judas, but Paul was.

And there has been other disciples and apostles besides the 11 adding Matthias and the Lord adding Paul. There was also Barnabas.

Acts 4:36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

Acts 14:14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

The office of the apostles is not limited by the 12 at all.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I recall at one time in another Christian forum how someone had tried to convince everyone that there were only 12 disciples and that there can be only 12 disciples. Scriptures refuted that right early.

Now this mindset have succeeded to make the apostles appear as if it is limited by the twelve. It is not.

Down through history, the church may have dropped using the title of the apostle mayhap for fear of vanity, but that does not mean the Lord is not using any saved believer as an apostle even though they do not call themselves as such.

Would a person today that is given a inward desire to declare prophecy or preach the gospel . . . be considered an apostle in the truest form of the word ? Was Abel a apostle sent with prophecy?Or Moses, Rehab, Deborah ?

 

[ChristB4us]

Would a person today that is given a inward desire to declare prophecy or preach the gospel . . . be considered an apostle in the truest form of the word ? Was Abel a apostle sent with prophecy?Or Moses, Rehab, Deborah ?

The term apostle was not used in the Old Testament but in the New Testament.

Although scholars today try to limit the apostleship to the 12 disciples as if nobody else can have that title after them, we find that there are other apostles like Paul & Barnabas.

So what exactly does an apostle do? It is not specific and I would have a hard time singling the task out from how Paul grouped them altogether with other offices for what they are to do for the body of Christ, but they serve for the edification of the body of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Regardless of the title, all who serve Him should know they are nothing since it is on God to cause the increase and so no one should be declaring themselves an apostle unto others but rather serve as an apostle unto others.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Corinthians 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[donadams]

The Church takes on the role of spiritual Israel (?)



Both were removed for their rebellion against the Lord.

Replacement theology?

 

[Fred]

Replacement theology?

When I wrote, "Both were removed for their rebellion against the Lord" I was referring to the tribe of Dan and Judas.

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[donadams]

When I wrote, "Both were removed for their rebellion against the Lord" I was referring to the tribe of Dan and Judas.

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christcentered.community.forum

Do you believe Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant

New covenant replaced the old
Christ replaced david
The Peter, the apostles (kingdom church) replaced Israel Matt 21:43
Matt 16:18-19

 

[Fred]

Do you believe Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant

What do you mean by "reformed?

 

[donadams]

What do you mean by "reformed?

What scripture says heb 9:10

 

[Tambora]

​

Thread question:​

Was Matthias or Paul the correct choice (by God) to replace Judas as the 12th apostle?​

Please back up your response with biblical proof.

Don't get too hung up by the number 12.
Remember that that 2 tribes (Ephraim & Manasseh) were added to Israel and yet Israel was always referred to as being 12 tribes, often excluding certain tribal names in the many times scripture listed the tribal names.