The 1000 year Millennium from the Bible

[EarlyActs]

Actually, I find the millennium passages in Revelation to be very clear. The tribulation will happen, at the end of which the antichrist, the beast, his image, and all their armies will come upon Jerusalem to destroy it, and Jesus will return to Earth at that time, with His armies, and they will wipe them all out. After which, Satan will not be completely defeated yet, but will be bound where he will no longer have influence. (Can no longer deceive the nations into attacking Israel.) So at this time, Jerusalem becomes the theocratic head of the world, with Jesus at Jersualem. All the nations of the world will come to Israel to celebrate the feasts and festivals, or face desolation. (That is a prophecy from the Old Testament)

At the end of the millennium, Jesus will defeat His final enemy, death, and hades and death will be thrown into the lake of fire. It is even ordered that way. Satan and those whose names aren't in the book of life are all first in line, then hades and death. At this time God will destroy the heavens and the earth, and will present a new heavens and a new earth, uncorrupted by sin. Jesus will give the kingdom back to the Father, and that's basically all the Bible covers up to. (Oh, I can't forget, and we will live with and worship God into eternity...)

Being familiar with Hebrews, I don't know how you get a theocracy or any temple worship all over again. The whole point of Hebrews is that it is over; and there is no re-do of any kind OR he has amnesia. Oh, but he knows all about the Jerusalem above for the NHNE.

Your sequence might be right but the question is the starting point. See Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES chapter on "Patmos." It is striking how many things were going on in and near Judea that modern "experts" know nothing about. All the things you mentioned have sense to them in the 1st century if "Israel" is the new Israel--the believers. Notice how the 1st page of the book says these things would happen right away, and that there is a substantial problem with "Jews who are not Jews."

 

[Josheb]

Revelation shows us the events at the end..

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now here's a breakdown of each verse in Revelation 20..

vs. 1 - An angel descends from heaven with a key and a chain.
vs. 2 - He binds Satan for 1000 years.
.

"Bound,", not "binds."

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

What is it in the Revelation 20 text makes you think the "bound" is future? Is there some other verse elsewhere in the Bible that tells you/us to read Revelation 20:2 as something that hasn't yet happened? John was told that some of what he was instructed to write down had already happened.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

During his time on earth Jesus stated the "strong man's" house could not be entered unless the strong man was bound, and he said that in direct response to the accusation his power came from Beelzebub.

Mark 3:22-30
The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin" — because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

The implication is that Jesus's power did not come from Satan (Beelzebub), and he was plundering his adversary's property, not the other way around. Therefore, given the fact there is scripture that explicitly states angels who did not keep their proper abode (such as Satan) had already been bound when the Jude epistle was written, John was told some of the things he'd be writing had already happened, and John saw Satan already bound, (and the gospel has been spreading like wildfire ever since), what is it in the text itself leading you to conclude the binding of Satan is still yet in our future? Why do you change the word "bound" to "binds"?

• What is it in the Revelation 20 text makes you think the "bound" is future?
• Is there some other verse elsewhere in the Bible that tells you/us to read Revelation 20:2 as something that hasn't yet happened?
• Given the fact there is scripture that explicitly states angels who did not keep their proper abode (such as Satan) had already been bound when the Jude epistle was written, John was told some of the things he'd be writing had already happened, and John saw Satan already bound, (and the gospel has been spreading like wildfire ever since), what is it in the text itself leading you to conclude the binding of Satan is still yet in our future?
• Why is the word scripture's word "bound" changed in the op to "binds"?

Same basic inquiry worded in different ways.

 

[Josheb]

At the close of the Millennium or the 1000 years in heaven, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.

Would you please state the verse number and quote the verse in chapter 20 that explicitly states Jesus descends to the earth?

I've just read chapter 20 over and over and done an electronic word search of the word "earth," and I can find that word stated only three times in the chapter and not one of them states Jesus comes to earth. Verses 8 and 9 state Satan deceives the nations in the four corners of the earth and Gog and Magog "came up on the broad plain of the earth" to surround the saints and the beloved city but they get devoured by fire from heaven. The only remaining mention of earth is found in verse 11 where it is stated the earth flees from the great white throne. I checked this out in six different English translations (KJV, NAS, NIV, ESV, BSB, and the NLT) and I cannot find a single verse in chapter 20 explicitly stating Jesus comes to earth. I can find several verses reporting events in heaven have effect on earth, but not one verse explicitly stating Jesus is physically descended "from heaven to earth."

I would also like to note,

At the close of the Millennium or the 1000 years in heaven, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.

Jesus descends "at the close of the Millennium or the thousand years in heaven...."

That would be a post-millennial descent. Are we to read this OP's opening posts as asserting a Postmillennial point of view? Can you confirm that?

 

[TMSO]

Hi thanks, I would offer.

Yes, Eternal God the Faithful and True Creator is not a man a creation.

The wrath comes to those that worship and serve the creature clay more than the Potter who forms clay.

Romans25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In that way no man can serve two good teaching masters as Lord of earthly lords .

Do we serve the Son of man the prophet Jesus? Or do we serve the unseen Holy Father the Spirit of truth who revealed his unseen power in dying mankind.

The Son of Man, Jesus replied. Not as I will (no power) but as you will the one with power to raise mankind to new born again life.

Mark 10:17-18 King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

You need to do more study. You are missing a lot of important stuff. Why did the Jews want to kill Jesus that time He invoked God's name for Himself? Because Jesus said He was God. Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day. The Jews said that He was only about 30, how could He claim to know Abraham. He said that before Abraham was, here is the kicker, I AM. That name God called Himself.

The reason we now have an advocate between God and man in Christ is because Jesus was both God and man. The High Priest and the sacrifice in one body. The High Priest sanctified the sacrifice by which God's justice was satisfied. Paul has told us that every man that has ever lived has sinned. Jesus did not. You claim that Jesus is just a man. So please, explain how God, telling us through Paul that all men have sinned, forgot something.

Jesus is the perfect mediator because, as God, He knows the judge, because He is the judge. As man, He as the God-man, experienced everything that we experienced, which means God can now, in human terms, sympathize with man. On Earth, in the flesh, the Word, the Logos experienced being tired, being hungry, and even the depths of grief with the death of Lazarus. He was tempted by Satan PERSONALLY, so He can attest to the lure of temptation. Notice how Satan perfectly hit every point. Fasting 40 days and 40 nights. Make yourself food. People telling Him to show He is the Son of God, and Jesus being dogged by the religious leaders. Go ahead, jump down and the angels will verify who You are. Facing the cross, to save a world gone wrong. Hey, if you bow down and worship me, I'll just give it all to you. No need to go to the cross. Imagine just how powerful that temptation was. Consider that when Jesus finally faced what was coming, He was sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. I can tell you, He wasn't looking back at that temptation. His mind was solely on what He had come to do. However, the man had to face the pain, the torture, and the utter agony of crucifixion, and He knew it was coming. However, thorugh it all, the Son of God bowed HIs head and willingly faced it all.

 

[TMSO]

As the writing goes, we were meant to view the flow of Mt24 continuous; otherwise there would be some other topic and a return. This is seen all through the narratives.

Except, we weren't meant to. For instance, parables are to be taken in isolation. However, you keep pulling one verse out of the parable, breaking the parable. This generation, refers to the ones who see that the summer is coming due to the appearance of the fig, and the ones who see that the end is coming because the signs Jesus spoke of are visible. This generation that sees the signs Jesus speaks of will not pass away until it all is fulfilled. That is how quickly the end will come.

Apparently you don't realize the sense of the Gospel about sin, righteousness, atonement, etc. He is describing the Gospel. Imputed righteousness does not mean people stop sinning, but that there is credit for our past sins. "to make atonement for sin" how could it be more connected to the letter to Hebrews? Messiah gets cut off but not for himself--he accomplishes all these things for others. Thus Romans 3 declares in the most important Christian paragraph, 3:21--26: the righteousness of God is now revealed that had been described in Moses and the prophets.

Apparently you don't understand what atonement means. To appease God. God is not yet appeased, as one can see just looking out the window. Also if one isolates this only to the Jews, it is obvious that God isn't done yet. Where is the everlasting righteousness we should be seeing everywhere?

The immediacy is why the NT is full of references that place their generation as last and the wrath of God coming shortly. Do you need examples? The opening of the 1st Christian sermon? "These are these days...Joel spoke of..."

All conjecture. The Jews were expecting this Messiah that would destroy their enemies and make Israel great again. Somehow Jesus didn't do that. (Why? Because the Jews spiritualized away Jesus first coming.) The church was under persecution, so they saw it as being what was prophesied, however, the signs Jesus mentioned were not visible. THe church face tribulations, but Jesus spoke of a great tribulation that would come in the future. He gave the signs for it, which have not been seen. What happened in 70AD pales in comparison to the holocaust.

Even if 2 P 3 is dated before the destruction of Jerusalem, in principle it still stands: God might delay for redemptive reasons, to save more people. Only the Father knew the last day, and Mk 13 gives 4 options.

It is true. My belief is completely unaffected by the date Revelation was written. However, preterism is not. It doesn't matter if you could make the whole Bible say what you say, if Revelation was written in 90 AD... it all collapses. Why should the heart of a belief be based simply on a date, and not on scripture?

There were signs; he had already been giving them. You are the first person I've read who does not think so. Josephus even records other strange but Judaic-targeted signs which occurred during the siege and destruction.

He gave them signs. They haven't happened yet. Where was the abomination of desolation? The only appearance of this we get is from the 2nd century BC. So... we are still waiting for this to happen again.

 

[TMSO]

Being familiar with Hebrews, I don't know how you get a theocracy or any temple worship all over again. The whole point of Hebrews is that it is over; and there is no re-do of any kind OR he has amnesia. Oh, but he knows all about the Jerusalem above for the NHNE.

The millennium will be a theocracy again. It has nothing to do with temple worship. However, it does say that all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts and festivals, or God will make them desolate.

Your sequence might be right but the question is the starting point. See Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES chapter on "Patmos." It is striking how many things were going on in and near Judea that modern "experts" know nothing about. All the things you mentioned have sense to them in the 1st century if "Israel" is the new Israel--the believers. Notice how the 1st page of the book says these things would happen right away, and that there is a substantial problem with "Jews who are not Jews."

It is believed that Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is the fulfillment of prophecy in Isaiah. At that time, almost every writer, even those who believed that Israel would become a nation again, wrote how impossible it was, even in 1948. And then... it happened. Israel became a nation again. This small little country held off 10 Arab countries of considerable might... by themselves. It seems not only were they to become a country, but that that is what God wanted. And they fought two other wars after, and won. No matter what these countries try, Israel is right where it has been since 1948.

 

[Mr GLee]

You need to do more study. You are missing a lot of important stuff. Why did the Jews want to kill Jesus that time He invoked God's name for Himself? Because Jesus said He was God. Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day. The Jews said that He was only about 30, how could He claim to know Abraham. He said that before Abraham was, here is the kicker, I AM. That name God called Himself.

The reason we now have an advocate between God and man in Christ is because Jesus was both God and man. The High Priest and the sacrifice in one body. The High Priest sanctified the sacrifice by which God's justice was satisfied. Paul has told us that every man that has ever lived has sinned. Jesus did not. You claim that Jesus is just a man. So please, explain how God, telling us through Paul that all men have sinned, forgot something.

Jesus is the perfect mediator because, as God, He knows the judge, because He is the judge. As man, He as the God-man, experienced everything that we experienced, which means God can now, in human terms, sympathize with man. On Earth, in the flesh, the Word, the Logos experienced being tired, being hungry, and even the depths of grief with the death of Lazarus. He was tempted by Satan PERSONALLY, so He can attest to the lure of temptation. Notice how Satan perfectly hit every point. Fasting 40 days and 40 nights. Make yourself food. People telling Him to show He is the Son of God, and Jesus being dogged by the religious leaders. Go ahead, jump down and the angels will verify who You are. Facing the cross, to save a world gone wrong. Hey, if you bow down and worship me, I'll just give it all to you. No need to go to the cross. Imagine just how powerful that temptation was. Consider that when Jesus finally faced what was coming, He was sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. I can tell you, He wasn't looking back at that temptation. His mind was solely on what He had come to do. However, the man had to face the pain, the torture, and the utter agony of crucifixion, and He knew it was coming. However, thorugh it all, the Son of God bowed HIs head and willingly faced it all.

I would offer you need to stop adding to the word it subtracts from the whole.

In all of that you said you never mentioned the Father not seen as to his role in the gospel.

Jesus the Son of Man never claimed to be eternal God They accused him of saying he was God. He attributed the works of the Holy Spirit the Father working in him right from the beginnings. Is it not written in your law, I said, you are gods that received the power of the word of God by whom the Father sanctified set apart ?

No different than any believer as born again sons of God

John 10 :31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

1 John 3:Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

All Christians are sons of God

 

[EarlyActs]

Except, we weren't meant to. For instance, parables are to be taken in isolation. However, you keep pulling one verse out of the parable, breaking the parable. This generation, refers to the ones who see that the summer is coming due to the appearance of the fig, and the ones who see that the end is coming because the signs Jesus spoke of are visible. This generation that sees the signs Jesus speaks of will not pass away until it all is fulfilled. That is how quickly the end will come.

Apparently you don't understand what atonement means. To appease God. God is not yet appeased, as one can see just looking out the window. Also if one isolates this only to the Jews, it is obvious that God isn't done yet. Where is the everlasting righteousness we should be seeing everywhere?

All conjecture. The Jews were expecting this Messiah that would destroy their enemies and make Israel great again. Somehow Jesus didn't do that. (Why? Because the Jews spiritualized away Jesus first coming.) The church was under persecution, so they saw it as being what was prophesied, however, the signs Jesus mentioned were not visible. THe church face tribulations, but Jesus spoke of a great tribulation that would come in the future. He gave the signs for it, which have not been seen. What happened in 70AD pales in comparison to the holocaust.

It is true. My belief is completely unaffected by the date Revelation was written. However, preterism is not. It doesn't matter if you could make the whole Bible say what you say, if Revelation was written in 90 AD... it all collapses. Why should the heart of a belief be based simply on a date, and not on scripture?

He gave them signs. They haven't happened yet. Where was the abomination of desolation? The only appearance of this we get is from the 2nd century BC. So... we are still waiting for this to happen again.

(Why? Because the Jews spiritualized away Jesus first coming.)
This is hilarious. It shows that your grip is the back side of the animal and you think you have the neck. "The hour is coming and now is, when those who worship Him will worship in spirit and in truth." I don't know any term more abused that 'spiritualized.' It villifies the very thing that takes place all through the NT understanding of Christ.

What the Jews did acc. to Jn 12:34, was expect a government ruler along the lines of David, forever, but Christ said He himself was the light and that they needed to walk in the light. The opposite of what you are saying.

See my books THE ENTHRONED KING and THE COVENANT REVOLT at Amazon.

 

[EarlyActs]

Except, we weren't meant to. For instance, parables are to be taken in isolation. However, you keep pulling one verse out of the parable, breaking the parable. This generation, refers to the ones who see that the summer is coming due to the appearance of the fig, and the ones who see that the end is coming because the signs Jesus spoke of are visible. This generation that sees the signs Jesus speaks of will not pass away until it all is fulfilled. That is how quickly the end will come.

Apparently you don't understand what atonement means. To appease God. God is not yet appeased, as one can see just looking out the window. Also if one isolates this only to the Jews, it is obvious that God isn't done yet. Where is the everlasting righteousness we should be seeing everywhere?

All conjecture. The Jews were expecting this Messiah that would destroy their enemies and make Israel great again. Somehow Jesus didn't do that. (Why? Because the Jews spiritualized away Jesus first coming.) The church was under persecution, so they saw it as being what was prophesied, however, the signs Jesus mentioned were not visible. THe church face tribulations, but Jesus spoke of a great tribulation that would come in the future. He gave the signs for it, which have not been seen. What happened in 70AD pales in comparison to the holocaust.

It is true. My belief is completely unaffected by the date Revelation was written. However, preterism is not. It doesn't matter if you could make the whole Bible say what you say, if Revelation was written in 90 AD... it all collapses. Why should the heart of a belief be based simply on a date, and not on scripture?

He gave them signs. They haven't happened yet. Where was the abomination of desolation? The only appearance of this we get is from the 2nd century BC. So... we are still waiting for this to happen again.

Your take on imputed righteousness (the thing that came according to Rom 3) is 180' off. It is a thing that is true in Christ and the Christ event of the Gospel, even though not seen in society or the world. Imputation is not the same as actual change. It is a declaration by a judge that a person is considered innocent (in the Christian case) by virtue of Christ.

Follow the explanation of Rom 4: the righteousness is not in the person! Neither in David nor in Abraham (where the key factor was being circ). It is credited, imputed, thought to be, against reality, 4:17 (to call things into being that are not) or more to the point, 9:32: Israel pursued righteousness as if it were by works; it is not! But Faith in Christ is credited as the righteousness of Christ.

Of course, it will affect and change the believer, but it doesn't start from that point.

When Luther explained imputation (gratia imputa) to the Papacy, they called him a jester, a make-believe, Christian.

 

[EarlyActs]

The millennium will be a theocracy again. It has nothing to do with temple worship. However, it does say that all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts and festivals, or God will make them desolate.

It is believed that Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is the fulfillment of prophecy in Isaiah. At that time, almost every writer, even those who believed that Israel would become a nation again, wrote how impossible it was, even in 1948. And then... it happened. Israel became a nation again. This small little country held off 10 Arab countries of considerable might... by themselves. It seems not only were they to become a country, but that that is what God wanted. And they fought two other wars after, and won. No matter what these countries try, Israel is right where it has been since 1948.

nothing to do with temple worship. However, it does say that all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts and festivals
Please listen to yourself. I have heard this for 50 years and it is nonsense. It absolutely is about another go of Judaism. Even "evangelical prophecy-experts" celebrate the finding of a red heifer or something. Totally forgetting Hebrews.

NT eschatology is nothing about the modern state of Israel. There is a NHNE, but there is nothing in the NT in ordinary didactic sections where the future land/nation/race of Israel by itself matters. Rom 2, 8, 11, I Cor 15, Acts 17, 2 Peter 3, Heb 11-13, I Th 2, 4, 5, 2 Th 1, 2.

This is why I refer to the offset or starting point of your sequence earlier. Make the 'long reign of Christ' (the chilias) the present kingdom since Acts 2, and it is sensible, and ends with a rebellion and harassment of believers, and is quickly changed to the NHNE, for which this creation groans as though in labor, Rom 8. It is a mistake to start in the/our future.

 

[EarlyActs]

None of this conflicts with modern Israel having a legitimate claim to its state, but it has been badly done. The Irgun (elite military) was only interested the Biblical claim for its political power. Even the liberal novelist Michener thought that modern Israel was founded in a Marxist manner (THE SOURCE). In the movie EXODUS, played by "Christian" TV station TBN hundreds of times, stars two Marxist terrorists moving boatloads of people to Israel. The end result is a 0.008% of evangelicals who are despised (One For Israel Mission). Not quite the prophets 'outpouring of the Spirit.'

 

[TMSO]

I would offer you need to stop adding to the word it subtracts from the whole.

In all of that you said you never mentioned the Father not seen as to his role in the gospel.

Jesus the Son of Man never claimed to be eternal God They accused him of saying he was God. He attributed the works of the Holy Spirit the Father working in him right from the beginnings. Is it not written in your law, I said, you are gods that received the power of the word of God by whom the Father sanctified set apart ?

No different than any believer as born again sons of God

John 10 :31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

1 John 3:Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

All Christians are sons of God

God, through John, tells us that Jesus was God. And He did claim it. Before Abraham was, I AM. The people wanted to stone Him there and then because He invoked God's name for Himself. He also was going to get stoned because He dared to say "I and the Father am One." Again, a call to Him being God. You will notice that Jesus always says Father, and not God. Why doesn't Jesus say God? Why always Father? You do know the Son is the representation of the Father, and thus of the same make, which either means Jesus is God, or at the least a god, meaning there is more than one God. John makes it easy, and tells that that He is God.

"All Christians are sons of God"
So, that means all those televangelists are right, and we are all little gods. There is a reason why I prefer to say children of God, so as to avoid those people who automatically believe that. We are adopted children of God through Christ (Ephesians 1). This is so special because God has decided to call some of His creation His children/sons, and give them an inheritance in His Kingdom.

Again, if Jesus was not God, His death means nothing, because He would have to die for His own sins. (Romans 3:23). Jesus was not just God. That flesh was not just a coat. Jesus had both human and divine natures in full communion. The divine was the Logos, which served as HIgh Priest, and the human nature, the flesh, was the sacrifice. Both the High Priest and the sacrifice in one body. Thus the sacrifice was sanctified. Thus the sins were imputed upon the sacrifice by the High Priest, as it was done in the Jewish sacrificial system.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the Godhead three in one. One being, God, made up of three coexisting, coeternal persons. The us in "Let us create man in our own image" seen in Genesis. Royalty speaks in the plural because they do not speak for themselves but for the state, or for the group.

Jesus, again, yes, repeated, was both God and man. The Logos (God) took on flesh (humanity) and dwelt among us. Other bible versions are interesting in their translation as they say that He pitched His tent among us. He made His dwelling among us. As such, God experienced everything we have experienced, known what we have known, and is capable of sympathizing with us. However, that also means when He calls us to be perfect, He means it. If He did it, why can't we.

 

[TMSO]

(Why? Because the Jews spiritualized away Jesus first coming.)
This is hilarious. It shows that your grip is the back side of the animal and you think you have the neck. "The hour is coming and now is, when those who worship Him will worship in spirit and in truth." I don't know any term more abused that 'spiritualized.' It villifies the very thing that takes place all through the NT understanding of Christ.

Spiritualized is a form of allegory. This is not talking about how we understand scripture. It is lifting from the written word, and changing it into something completely different, and linking it to something else. The Jews spiritualized the first coming away, by denying and transforming the passages about the willing servant. Their king won't be a servant, but a king, therefore these passages must be linked to all the other passages about their Messiah King, and any references to the servant changed. (Oh and you have to say it in an elated voice, like you are talking about magic spells.) It is like saying, Mary had a little lamb, oh yes she did, a lamb, whose fleece was white as snow, and it was so white as to blind you... (the additions that completely change the original meaning. Spiritualized, because it is religious/spiritual in nature, and they claim to have new understanding from the Holy Spirit.)

What the Jews did acc. to Jn 12:34, was expect a government ruler along the lines of David, forever, but Christ said He himself was the light and that they needed to walk in the light. The opposite of what you are saying.

See my books THE ENTHRONED KING and THE COVENANT REVOLT at Amazon.

They expect what they are supposed to expect, except that Jesus was coming as a suffering servant first. Then He would come as King. And He was even of the line of David. The genealogies are interesting because you will find the name of a king to whom God had cursed and said that they would never have a descendant sit upon the throne of David. However, that particular line was not the line from which the right to rule comes from. That came from Mary's side of the family. He will be a David king (the last) who will reign until He defeats the final enemy, death. (Find that in Corinthians...) When is death finally defeated, according to Revelation? At the end of the Millennial reign. When Satan brings the armies to surround the camps of the righteous and the beloved city, and Jesus destroys them for good. Then Satan and those whose names aren't written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. After all this judgement and sentencing is over, death and hades are finally thrown into the lake of fire, death finally defeated. At that time Jesus will give the kingdom back to His Father (Corinthians again).

 

[TMSO]

Your take on imputed righteousness (the thing that came according to Rom 3) is 180' off. It is a thing that is true in Christ and the Christ event of the Gospel, even though not seen in society or the world. Imputation is not the same as actual change. It is a declaration by a judge that a person is considered innocent (in the Christian case) by virtue of Christ.

You shoudl look up the word imputed. "assigned to something by inference from the value of the products or processes to which it contributes; estimated." Our sin with its penalty (death) was imputed to Christ, and His righteousness was imputed to us. It is not our righteousness. It is not in us. It is imputed. It is credited, if you like that word better. However, this righteousness is only imputed upon the believer (for obvious reasons.) However, if you know about the Jewish sacrificial system, imputation is directly connected to the sacrifice of atonement. Those for whom this righteousness is imputed, have been atoned for. As in the Jewish sacrificial system, they have two goats, and the High Priest imputes the sins of the congregation upon the scapegoat, which is released to never be seen again. And that is the world the Old Testament uses. Imputation.

Follow the explanation of Rom 4: the righteousness is not in the person! Neither in David nor in Abraham (where the key factor was being circ). It is credited, imputed, thought to be, against reality, 4:17 (to call things into being that are not) or more to the point, 9:32: Israel pursued righteousness as if it were by works; it is not! But Faith in Christ is credited as the righteousness of Christ.

I think you misunderstand imputation. We have nothing to do that. It isn't our righteousness imputed to ourselves, but Christ's righteousness imputed to us. It is still Christ's righteousness, but it has been imputed (assigned) to us. We could never do enough work to have that kind of righteousness in and of ourselves.

Of course, it will affect and change the believer, but it doesn't start from that point.

When Luther explained imputation (gratia imputa) to the Papacy, they called him a jester, a make-believe, Christian.

Of course they did. That's the heretical Catholic Church you are talking about. If the Catholic Church believed the truth, there would be no purgatory. However, they believe in a works based salvation, and that everyone goes through purgatory. (Unless they get some meritted grace from Mary or whoever.) Sins are not truly forgiven in the Catholic Church. But, you can give them a lot of money and spend less time in purgatory.

 

[TMSO]

nothing to do with temple worship. However, it does say that all the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts and festivals
Please listen to yourself. I have heard this for 50 years and it is nonsense. It absolutely is about another go of Judaism. Even "evangelical prophecy-experts" celebrate the finding of a red heifer or something. Totally forgetting Hebrews.

No it is not. It is God fulfilling His promises made to the forefathers. You have to understand the place where this fits. This is at the end of the tribulation, but before the actual end, when Jesus destroys the final enemy death. There are people still alive on Earth following the tribulation. (Did Jesus not say that the days were shortened for the sake of the elect, so that not all flesh would die?) These people have not died. They are still human. They are still in the flesh. They will continue living on as normal. They will have kids. The Kingdom will be setup at Jerusalem as prophesied in the Old Testament. The nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to worship God, and partake in the feasts. There is nothing about sacrifices. Nothing about a temple system. Nothing about temple worship.

NT eschatology is nothing about the modern state of Israel. There is a NHNE, but there is nothing in the NT in ordinary didactic sections where the future land/nation/race of Israel by itself matters. Rom 2, 8, 11, I Cor 15, Acts 17, 2 Peter 3, Heb 11-13, I Th 2, 4, 5, 2 Th 1, 2.

End of Revelation, but you can believe what you will. It connects directly to Zechariah. Why do you completely throw out a biblical context? I would think that Jesus and the prophecies concerning Him would show direct connections between the Old and New Testaments.

This is why I refer to the offset or starting point of your sequence earlier. Make the 'long reign of Christ' (the chilias) the present kingdom since Acts 2, and it is sensible, and ends with a rebellion and harassment of believers, and is quickly changed to the NHNE, for which this creation groans as though in labor, Rom 8. It is a mistake to start in the/our future.

Except that Paul in Corinthians makes it clear that the kingdom of the Son is not permament. And Satan is busy being bound and locked in the bottomless abyss. Sealed there. We should not be seeing satanic activity alive and well, since all the people who followed the beast and his image, that is all who follow him, were slaughtered at Jerusalem. Oh wait... that didn't happen... yet. However, in todays age, we have a possible opportunity to see it happen. Except you have decided that modern Israel has no place, haven't you? You can see the whole world turning against Israel, as the Bible states will happen, but you completely ignore it. There is a very good chance that it could be right before our eyes right now.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When is death finally defeated, according to Revelation? At the end of the Millennial reign

And death was defeated at the end of the Revelation 20 millennium with Christ's resurrection-day ascension. As in 2 Timothy 1:10. "But NOW is made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..." Christ abolished death by raising Himself from the grave. Because He lives, we shall live also (John 14:19). And we will be enabled to do that in a changed, immortal and incorruptible, glorified, resurrected body, fit for dwelling in God's presence. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within us is the pledge that we will be given this inheritance in a bodily resurrection process (Ephesians 1:14).

 

[EarlyActs]

Spiritualized is a form of allegory. This is not talking about how we understand scripture. It is lifting from the written word, and changing it into something completely different, and linking it to something else. The Jews spiritualized the first coming away, by denying and transforming the passages about the willing servant. Their king won't be a servant, but a king, therefore these passages must be linked to all the other passages about their Messiah King, and any references to the servant changed. (Oh and you have to say it in an elated voice, like you are talking about magic spells.) It is like saying, Mary had a little lamb, oh yes she did, a lamb, whose fleece was white as snow, and it was so white as to blind you... (the additions that completely change the original meaning. Spiritualized, because it is religious/spiritual in nature, and they claim to have new understanding from the Holy Spirit.)

They expect what they are supposed to expect, except that Jesus was coming as a suffering servant first. Then He would come as King. And He was even of the line of David. The genealogies are interesting because you will find the name of a king to whom God had cursed and said that they would never have a descendant sit upon the throne of David. However, that particular line was not the line from which the right to rule comes from. That came from Mary's side of the family. He will be a David king (the last) who will reign until He defeats the final enemy, death. (Find that in Corinthians...) When is death finally defeated, according to Revelation? At the end of the Millennial reign. When Satan brings the armies to surround the camps of the righteous and the beloved city, and Jesus destroys them for good. Then Satan and those whose names aren't written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. After all this judgement and sentencing is over, death and hades are finally thrown into the lake of fire, death finally defeated. At that time Jesus will give the kingdom back to His Father (Corinthians again).

All the opening announcements of all the gospels are that a king is arriving. Not future. When the resurrection happens there are 3 teachings that he was the Davidic king and that the resurrection was the enthronement of Him as such. This does not mean the world and its news changes; it means that the proclamation of believers is that it is imperative that people obey Him:

"Honor the Son; lest he be angry with you and smite you." Ps 2

That warning was meant to start from Acts 2 going forward.

There is a sense in which we have the defeat of death already; Jn 10: whoever believes on Him has transfered from death to life.

So we can say that the literalism of the Jews at the 1st coming was a huge problem. It disabled them from seeing what Christ was bringing; that he was the new temple, the new manna, the new meat, the new exodus, the new Moses.

There is no example or evidence that the Jews "spiritualized" the first coming away. Wrong word. They totally missed it's spiritual reality.

 

[EarlyActs]

No it is not. It is God fulfilling His promises made to the forefathers. You have to understand the place where this fits. This is at the end of the tribulation, but before the actual end, when Jesus destroys the final enemy death. There are people still alive on Earth following the tribulation. (Did Jesus not say that the days were shortened for the sake of the elect, so that not all flesh would die?) These people have not died. They are still human. They are still in the flesh. They will continue living on as normal. They will have kids. The Kingdom will be setup at Jerusalem as prophesied in the Old Testament. The nations of the world will come to Jerusalem to worship God, and partake in the feasts. There is nothing about sacrifices. Nothing about a temple system. Nothing about temple worship.

End of Revelation, but you can believe what you will. It connects directly to Zechariah. Why do you completely throw out a biblical context? I would think that Jesus and the prophecies concerning Him would show direct connections between the Old and New Testaments.

Except that Paul in Corinthians makes it clear that the kingdom of the Son is not permament. And Satan is busy being bound and locked in the bottomless abyss. Sealed there. We should not be seeing satanic activity alive and well, since all the people who followed the beast and his image, that is all who follow him, were slaughtered at Jerusalem. Oh wait... that didn't happen... yet. However, in todays age, we have a possible opportunity to see it happen. Except you have decided that modern Israel has no place, haven't you? You can see the whole world turning against Israel, as the Bible states will happen, but you completely ignore it. There is a very good chance that it could be right before our eyes right now.

Remember, I not throwing out anything. I'm saying I will not support any doctrine that is not totally clear in normal language elsewhere. I cannot start with material like the Rev and have nothing else. There are so many descriptions of the last day in the NT letters, and no race-nation matters, and everything happens quickly, possibly an hour.

I'm aware of Zech, yet again the "prophecy experts" side-step the obvious again: that the piercing is already quoted in the gospels, and so is referring to that.

This side-stepping is what eventually generates doctrines like 'the church was a plan B, an interruption, a parenthesis that no one knew was coming.' Totally nonsense. It is not found in Eph 3 and not in Acts 15's quote of Amos 9.

The place to start is to sort out whether Acts 2:30 is saying that what David saw was the resurrection. The resurrection was the enthronement of Christ. There is no other grammatical conclusion there. He is treated as enthroned in the end of the teaching, in ch 3 and in ch 4--a pretty solid start, right?

I would move really slow rather than violate what Hebrews says is the standard for Christian doctrine--the once-for-all atonement of Christ that has eternal status in the court of heaven.

Have you ever thought about why a few people would be slaughtered for opposing Israel would be thought of as "the final act of the wrath of God"? Out of all the ages of time and all the people on earth already perished, that one thing at one time is the standard for the wrath of God? I don't think so.

 

[EarlyActs]

The kingdom as depicted by the gospels and Acts is one that must be submitted to. The Son has been enthroned and the world is to be told "Honor the Son, lest he be angry with you." That is why it does not have 'external signs to be observed.' It is neither 'here nor there, but among you.'

 

[TMSO]

And death was defeated at the end of the Revelation 20 millennium with Christ's resurrection-day ascension. As in 2 Timothy 1:10. "But NOW is made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel..." Christ abolished death by raising Himself from the grave. Because He lives, we shall live also (John 14:19). And we will be enabled to do that in a changed, immortal and incorruptible, glorified, resurrected body, fit for dwelling in God's presence. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within us is the pledge that we will be given this inheritance in a bodily resurrection process (Ephesians 1:14)

Okay, let us look at this rationally. John, in two places, states that what is written in Revelation is prophecy that has not yet happened, but the time is near, and God is telling John what must happen in the future. (The future, from the time John is writing.) 33AD is not the future. 33AD is the past. According to Daniel, this is the end of the 69th week. There is still another week to go. A week you seem to ignore. A week that isn't answered in history by 40 AD. This is why the church understands that Daniel's 70th week hasn't happened yet. And if you check the end of the prophecy, it states everything that is supposed to happen.

"“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy."

So the most holy is anointed King at the end of the 70 weeks. As in Jesus, of the seed of David. What is the line before these things? "For your people [Israel] and for your holy city [Jerusalem]. So what do we know about AD 33?

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

So 33 AD is only the end of the 69th week. Do you just ignore the 70th week? The week after which Jesus is anointed King? (The Millennial Kingdom)? After which Revelation 20 happens, and death, the final enemy is defeated, and Jesus gives the Kingdom to the Father, and this world is destroyed, and we have the New Heavens and the New Earth. No more death. The next age.

The 70th week:
"Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”"

This consummation ends the 70th week. The destruction of the prince who seeks to destroy Israel/Jerusalem. (Going back to what the 70 weeks are marked off for.)

Death may have been abolished, that is it holds no power over Jesus, or those who follow Him, but it is not defeated. Revelation 20 marks the final defeat of death and its hold over ALL creation. The world will again be as it was before Adam sinned, except on a New Earth with New Heavens, and a New Jerusalem.