The 1000 year Millennium from the Bible

[TMSO]

re normal language about the final day of judgement
All the normal language passages have nothing about a Rev type string of events. It is over very quick. The world system may be harassing the saints for quite a while, but I mean the final judgement is over very quick and the believers are with the Lord in the bliss of the NHNE. I'm referring to Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Peter 3, I Th 2, 4, 5, II Th 1, 2. Please show specifically how any of those are stretched out into several years.

The final judgement is over very quickly. (Revelation 20). The seven years are the tribulation that proceeds the millennium kingdom. The Great Tribulation. It is also the 70th week of Daniel. If Jesus does not return before Jerusalem is destroyed, then there would be no flesh left on Earth before the millennium. However, for the sake of the elect, God shortened the tribulation, and sends Jesus in to destroy the armies that attack the elect at Jerusalem. This is portrayed in Zechariah 12-13, and is the first defense of Jerusalem before the millennium. The final judgement and the end of this age (the age of sin and death) is recorded in Revelation 20. This is when Jesus destroys the final enemy death when death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. That marks the end of the age. It is at this time that the Son returns the kingdom to the Father as recorded in I Corinthians 15. <- My take which is still evolving. (That is, as new knowledge comes in, it takes it into consideration.)

 

[TMSO]

btw there are two many topics in your posts. Please do one topic per post. Too much to chase.

re Zechariah
36 For these things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled, “Not a bone of his will be broken.”[da] 37 And again another scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they have pierced.”[db]
Please quote if you are going to claim it was not fulfilled, just confirmed or something. You are wrong. Writers in the NT who are describing the crucifixion are not suddenly pre-occupied with the 2nd coming.

And you missed my point. Why did John leave out the rest of the scripture, and why didn't he say that was fulfilled? His point is that Jesus fulfills the scripture about the Messiah. He fulfills what David said (as prophet), that His bones will not be broken, and also that they will cast lots for his clothes, and no decay would touch his body in the grave. After the Roman guard pierced Jesus side and he and his companion looked upon Him, John says that the scripture in Zechariah was fulfilled. Except that the prophecy (wide view) in Zechariah says that Israel, the Jews, look upon Jesus whom they have pierced. This prophecy runs deeper. One has to ask the reason for why John, on more than one occasion, mentions Jesus fulfilling scripture in such a way as to say, see? Jesus is the Messiah the Old Testament spoke of. There is A LOT more to what is in Zechariah beyond what John says here. His point is that this one they have pierced, whom Israel looks to in Zechariah, is Jesus. And here is the fulfillment. He has just been pierced by the Roman guard. And, what we should be understanding, is that this is on the behest of Israel, so it is Israel, through the proxy of Rome, that had pierced their Messiah.

I hope I have explained my understanding well enough. If I recall, John's purpose was to show that Jesus is who He claimed to be, the Messiah. So John often brought up where scripture was fulfilled in the person of Jesus. These scriptures are identified as Messianic prophecy. Thus, if Jesus is the fulfillment of these prophecies, that shows that Jesus is who He said He was, the Messiah. Again, do not lose the fact that the little snippet from Zechariah is part of a much larger prophecy that deals with the final redemption/reconciliation of the remnant of the nation of Israel. 2/3 will be destroyed, and 1/3 will be saved.

Zechariah 13
"8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

 

[TMSO]

re two programs

Two parts. They are not two programs. Since salvation is the same in both cases, it is the same plan of salvation, the same program.

the verses about 'only the lost house of Israel' do not confirm that; just the opposite. She turns out having more faith than Israel!

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus came for the house of Israel or not. This is one thing I used to have issues with when it came to the Bible. God is always black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus is clear when He says that He has been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is played out when Paul keeps saying that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Salvation was first presented to the Jews, and with the rejection of the Jews, then presented to the Gentiles.

But an incident like that is not the place to decide this. You need to look at Eph 2-3. Where it was clearly always the plan to save the gentiles. As with Acts 15, quoting Amos 9. Rom 11 too. Everything is concluded in Christ: mercy for both. Yes Israel will keep on being partly blind til the end of the age, and always was partly blind. That's how Paul corrects the idea that they were the only believers or were perfect. No, he says the remnant was always different from the whole community, and there were always gentiles who believed.

Here is the thing. You can't ignore the human terms. Sure, we can pull out and see the entire plan/program of redemption in all of its parts, but then we get lost. If you look at it in human terms, you have the execution. Jesus was, since He said it, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There it is black and white. And if there is on thing that can be difficult to comprehend, it is that God is black and white in his presentation. Consider that Jesus chose His words carefully. (Just as He did when he "broke the Sabbath". (In quotes because, well, He didn't. His carefully chosen words to the religious leaders were on the mark every time. I believe this is why He got frustrated and angry with their hardness of heart.)

In the words that Jesus spoke, there is absolutely no entertainment of the idea that salvation is not for the world. He is just saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It says nothing of the future. It speaks only of the time. He didn't come for the faith of the house of Israel. He was sent, with a message, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hence, the Cushite woman was not a part of it. This is an aside of me splitting hairs. Jesus got out His message (I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and he got to point out that, even so, this woman has more faith than any in Israel. This isn't the first time God does this to basically shame Israel. <end of splitting hairs>

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews. That didn't mean that the Gentiles would have the same access to God. However, the moment that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and started speaking in tongues, Peter pounced and pointed out that the Gentiles are the same. He asked who could forbid the water [of baptism] for these Gentiles, who received the same Holy Spirit as they had. The Gentiles officially joined the Jews as members of ONE church, by ONE gospel, by ONE Messiah, that day. It was not a separate program, it was part 2 of the program. Jesus gathering in the sheep of another flock. Part 3 will be when Part 2 comes to an end. (I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.) At that time, the partial blindness of Israel is lifted, and the remnant of Israel, God's elect that have not yet been saved, will be saved. (The natural branches of the vine being grafted back into the vine. NOT ALL, just the remnant. Those who remain alive after the tribulation is over. The elect for whom God shortened the time.

 

[Mr GLee]

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews.

I would offer another view.

God is no respecter of the dying flesh of mankind. Its appointed that in sufferings the wage of sin in these bodies of death, mankind dies once.

The first century reformation restored the order of the gentiles. . . prophets as priests preaching the gospel. Called Judges male *Abraham( and female (Rehab) prophet from all nations sent as apostles with the good news .

Both men and woman like that of Rehab the prophet called a Judge sent by God as a apostle or the apostle Abel. Before the Jew was developed to be used for a short while. . . Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation . It was reformed according to sola scriptura just as revealed in Joel .No longer under the school master the letter of the law death. It would seem he devolved the Jewish family to be used as a aparble or figure of speech for the time present .Kings in Israel.

Note. . .signified . . . using things seen . figure same word for "parable" . . remember which without Christ spoke not . the shdows became the substance the reformation

Hebrew 9: 8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

God gave the atheist Jew over to do that which they should not of . They refused to believe in a invisible God not seen revealed by his prophets as apostles messengers. Becoming jealous of the surrounding pagan nations and demanded a earthly fleshly king . like any pagan religion. "Out of sight out of mind" the venerable lording it over the faith of the non-venerable (Paganism)

1 Samuel 8:7-9 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

Kings in Israel venerable worshipable men's only club . . .no Jewish women or gentles. Then came the gospel explosion the beginning of the last days a three day and night demonstration to the whole world of the power of Father. . .like never before or ever again . A great tribulation to the Jew that was hoping dying flesh could profit

Acts 2:15-17King James VersionFor these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

 

[EarlyActs]

[please respond to one item per post. The thread is so big that the forum system has to block it for being over 10K.]

re #97

You've really missed the NT sense. It can be difficult.
1, stop trying to figure out modern times.
2, stop using the phrase 'the world as we see it.' This is huge. The whole NT sense of the kingdom comes uniquely from the 40 days of teaching between the resurrection and Pentecost. These are the earliest official quotes of the OT, and we must preserve their nuance above everything else. There are about 20. I suggest you make a spreadsheet, and take a version that footnotes the OT quotes (there are even more allusions, but at least you got started right.).
3, All of the gospel narrative declarations about the kingdom are that it is currently at work on earth: "near...at hand...among you...within you (plural)...has come...the time is coming and has come..." etc. This should also be one of your studies.
4, the apostles were told that they would see the kingdom come in its power. That is why Acts 2 is not a bland suggestion about something off in the future. It was the power of God because the message kickstarted to the known world (Mediterranean basin) upon the return of those people to their 17 linguistic locations; all they had to do was recount the events.
5, the beloved city of Jerusalem is the one above. Do you know know what Gal 4 and Heb 11-13 are saying?

 

[EarlyActs]

Someone else brought this up, but it didn't say that Christ had defeated death but had abolished death. If death was defeated, then no one would die. Looking at the end of Revelation 20, if death has been defeated, no one would go to hell. (Both death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire). Also, death is related to sin. So unless God's kingdom is a kingdom of sin, sin is defeated and wiped out of God's creation, and as such, death and hell are also done away with, for death is solely the result of sin. We hear that from Paul. For by one man sin entered the world, and through sin death. In the same way, through Christ, who was sinless, life has entered the world. However, as we all know, that life is limited to those who believe and are thus sealed up in Christ to be raised up on the last day to everlasting life. The only thing that has happened so far is that the power of death has been diminished. In Christ, death is abolished, and has no power of Him or those who believe in Him. Outside of Christ, death reigns supreme. However, Christ will ultimately defeat death, and death will not longer be a part of the creation. This is recorded at the end of Revelation 20, when death and hades[hell] are thrown into the lake of fire, after all whose names are not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. At this time, the Son will return the Kingdom to the Father, and we will have a new heavens and new earth.

The Kingdom is here, because the King entered the scene. However, He is sitting at the right hand of God until God makes His enemies His footstool, as David said. At which time He will reign over all in the millennial kingdom, which is intended to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises. That kingdom was not intended to be eternal, and will mark the end of the age. To me, this is shown by Paul in I Corinthians 15 when the Son gives the kingdom back to the Father after the defeat of death, the final enemy. And that is the UNIVERSAL defeat of death. Death will no longer be found in God's Kingdom, within God's creation. There will be everlasting life, and everlasting righteousness. Sin will have no place in the next age. Where there is no sin, there is no death. For it is by sin that death entered the world.

You keep looking for actualities (by sight) when the NT is telling us what is true "in Christ" or "by faith". It is up to you to study 2 Cor 3-5 and see the difference.

As long as you do this, the kingdom will also have to be "by sight" in a "by sight" Jerusalem in a "by sight" millenium, even though the NT did not mean any of those things that way.

 

[EarlyActs]

To TMSO,
I can't find where you tried to qualify two programs as two parts, but you are missing the important part. There is no distinct activity for the race-nation Israel and another for the Christian believer. There are countless indicators that this is the case.

I mentioned the two programs because of the fundamental declaration of the Dispensationalists (Scofield, Darby, Ryrie, Pentecost) that the two programs Israel and the Church do not and cannot meet or sync. As I mentioned before even very good teachers have concluded that there are two atonements, because there is two of everything else, so why not? This is in spite of Eph 2-3 which has them unified and makes declarations about the OT.

 

[EarlyActs]

Two parts. They are not two programs. Since salvation is the same in both cases, it is the same plan of salvation, the same program.

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus came for the house of Israel or not. This is one thing I used to have issues with when it came to the Bible. God is always black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus is clear when He says that He has been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is played out when Paul keeps saying that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Salvation was first presented to the Jews, and with the rejection of the Jews, then presented to the Gentiles.

Here is the thing. You can't ignore the human terms. Sure, we can pull out and see the entire plan/program of redemption in all of its parts, but then we get lost. If you look at it in human terms, you have the execution. Jesus was, since He said it, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There it is black and white. And if there is on thing that can be difficult to comprehend, it is that God is black and white in his presentation. Consider that Jesus chose His words carefully. (Just as He did when he "broke the Sabbath". (In quotes because, well, He didn't. His carefully chosen words to the religious leaders were on the mark every time. I believe this is why He got frustrated and angry with their hardness of heart.)

In the words that Jesus spoke, there is absolutely no entertainment of the idea that salvation is not for the world. He is just saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It says nothing of the future. It speaks only of the time. He didn't come for the faith of the house of Israel. He was sent, with a message, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hence, the Cushite woman was not a part of it. This is an aside of me splitting hairs. Jesus got out His message (I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and he got to point out that, even so, this woman has more faith than any in Israel. This isn't the first time God does this to basically shame Israel. <end of splitting hairs>

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews. That didn't mean that the Gentiles would have the same access to God. However, the moment that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and started speaking in tongues, Peter pounced and pointed out that the Gentiles are the same. He asked who could forbid the water [of baptism] for these Gentiles, who received the same Holy Spirit as they had. The Gentiles officially joined the Jews as members of ONE church, by ONE gospel, by ONE Messiah, that day. It was not a separate program, it was part 2 of the program. Jesus gathering in the sheep of another flock. Part 3 will be when Part 2 comes to an end. (I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.) At that time, the partial blindness of Israel is lifted, and the remnant of Israel, God's elect that have not yet been saved, will be saved. (The natural branches of the vine being grafted back into the vine. NOT ALL, just the remnant. Those who remain alive after the tribulation is over. The elect for whom God shortened the time.

re the lost house
You're going to have to tone down TMSO. My comment has everything to do with the lost house. The lost house was supposed to be missionaries! That vision is what is "lost." That is why he is so interested in her faith and its being better than the race-nation Israel.

This is a very important distinction between the D'ist view of two programs. If you believe there are 2 then there is 'black and white' alternating between them--which is nonsense of course, but they believe it. The NT does not have this. It says there is a new 'nation' in Mt 22 that 'does the work of the vineyard.' How could it be more clear--and a play on words to boot!

 

[EarlyActs]

Two parts. They are not two programs. Since salvation is the same in both cases, it is the same plan of salvation, the same program.

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus came for the house of Israel or not. This is one thing I used to have issues with when it came to the Bible. God is always black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus is clear when He says that He has been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is played out when Paul keeps saying that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Salvation was first presented to the Jews, and with the rejection of the Jews, then presented to the Gentiles.

Here is the thing. You can't ignore the human terms. Sure, we can pull out and see the entire plan/program of redemption in all of its parts, but then we get lost. If you look at it in human terms, you have the execution. Jesus was, since He said it, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There it is black and white. And if there is on thing that can be difficult to comprehend, it is that God is black and white in his presentation. Consider that Jesus chose His words carefully. (Just as He did when he "broke the Sabbath". (In quotes because, well, He didn't. His carefully chosen words to the religious leaders were on the mark every time. I believe this is why He got frustrated and angry with their hardness of heart.)

In the words that Jesus spoke, there is absolutely no entertainment of the idea that salvation is not for the world. He is just saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It says nothing of the future. It speaks only of the time. He didn't come for the faith of the house of Israel. He was sent, with a message, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hence, the Cushite woman was not a part of it. This is an aside of me splitting hairs. Jesus got out His message (I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and he got to point out that, even so, this woman has more faith than any in Israel. This isn't the first time God does this to basically shame Israel. <end of splitting hairs>

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews. That didn't mean that the Gentiles would have the same access to God. However, the moment that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and started speaking in tongues, Peter pounced and pointed out that the Gentiles are the same. He asked who could forbid the water [of baptism] for these Gentiles, who received the same Holy Spirit as they had. The Gentiles officially joined the Jews as members of ONE church, by ONE gospel, by ONE Messiah, that day. It was not a separate program, it was part 2 of the program. Jesus gathering in the sheep of another flock. Part 3 will be when Part 2 comes to an end. (I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.) At that time, the partial blindness of Israel is lifted, and the remnant of Israel, God's elect that have not yet been saved, will be saved. (The natural branches of the vine being grafted back into the vine. NOT ALL, just the remnant. Those who remain alive after the tribulation is over. The elect for whom God shortened the time.

But it is NOT black and white, as the Syro-Phoenician woman encounter illustrates! It is for faith, and against race-nations, including Israel's. Look at Jn 8 and the "big lie" of Israel: that Abraham was their father. That was also marked by John the Baptist.

Glad you realize there is a remnant because that will help you drop your black/white view, which is not what the NT conveys.

Please drop all reference to future events etc that you suppose are in the Rev, it really does not help. Everything is now resolved, says Rom 11:30, in Christ. That's all the NT says we need to know.

 

[Mr GLee]

re the lost house
You're going to have to tone down TMSO. My comment has everything to do with the lost house. The lost house was supposed to be missionaries! That vision is what is "lost." That is why he is so interested in her faith and its being better than the race-nation Israel.

This is a very important distinction between the D'ist view of two programs. If you believe there are 2 then there is 'black and white' alternating between them--which is nonsense of course, but they believe it. The NT does not have this. It says there is a new 'nation' in Mt 22 that 'does the work of the vineyard.' How could it be more clear--and a play on words to boot!

Yes, the new nation Christian. . . . . . . the mother of all nations

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[EarlyActs]

Two parts. They are not two programs. Since salvation is the same in both cases, it is the same plan of salvation, the same program.

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus came for the house of Israel or not. This is one thing I used to have issues with when it came to the Bible. God is always black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus is clear when He says that He has been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is played out when Paul keeps saying that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Salvation was first presented to the Jews, and with the rejection of the Jews, then presented to the Gentiles.

Here is the thing. You can't ignore the human terms. Sure, we can pull out and see the entire plan/program of redemption in all of its parts, but then we get lost. If you look at it in human terms, you have the execution. Jesus was, since He said it, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There it is black and white. And if there is on thing that can be difficult to comprehend, it is that God is black and white in his presentation. Consider that Jesus chose His words carefully. (Just as He did when he "broke the Sabbath". (In quotes because, well, He didn't. His carefully chosen words to the religious leaders were on the mark every time. I believe this is why He got frustrated and angry with their hardness of heart.)

In the words that Jesus spoke, there is absolutely no entertainment of the idea that salvation is not for the world. He is just saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It says nothing of the future. It speaks only of the time. He didn't come for the faith of the house of Israel. He was sent, with a message, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hence, the Cushite woman was not a part of it. This is an aside of me splitting hairs. Jesus got out His message (I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and he got to point out that, even so, this woman has more faith than any in Israel. This isn't the first time God does this to basically shame Israel. <end of splitting hairs>

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews. That didn't mean that the Gentiles would have the same access to God. However, the moment that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and started speaking in tongues, Peter pounced and pointed out that the Gentiles are the same. He asked who could forbid the water [of baptism] for these Gentiles, who received the same Holy Spirit as they had. The Gentiles officially joined the Jews as members of ONE church, by ONE gospel, by ONE Messiah, that day. It was not a separate program, it was part 2 of the program. Jesus gathering in the sheep of another flock. Part 3 will be when Part 2 comes to an end. (I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.) At that time, the partial blindness of Israel is lifted, and the remnant of Israel, God's elect that have not yet been saved, will be saved. (The natural branches of the vine being grafted back into the vine. NOT ALL, just the remnant. Those who remain alive after the tribulation is over. The elect for whom God shortened the time.

There is no official move past the Jews. But the messianic vision of all the nations hearing of Messiah is pursued. That continues on to the end of time.

The remnant has been saved all down through time (see the 1st 4 verses of ch11), there is no waiting some predetermined period for the rest of it.

One thing you don't realize you are doing is reading the Isaiah quote in Rom 11 as our future. He was clarifying what was happening then. The Redeemer came to Zion and took away sins (once again you have to know the difference between debt and doing sin to know the importance here; futurists usually say 'this is a period when Israel will be perfectly righteous' but this is not the idea at all.)

 

[EarlyActs]

Two parts. They are not two programs. Since salvation is the same in both cases, it is the same plan of salvation, the same program.

That has nothing to do with whether Jesus came for the house of Israel or not. This is one thing I used to have issues with when it came to the Bible. God is always black and white. There are no gray areas. Jesus is clear when He says that He has been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is played out when Paul keeps saying that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Salvation was first presented to the Jews, and with the rejection of the Jews, then presented to the Gentiles.

Here is the thing. You can't ignore the human terms. Sure, we can pull out and see the entire plan/program of redemption in all of its parts, but then we get lost. If you look at it in human terms, you have the execution. Jesus was, since He said it, sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There it is black and white. And if there is on thing that can be difficult to comprehend, it is that God is black and white in his presentation. Consider that Jesus chose His words carefully. (Just as He did when he "broke the Sabbath". (In quotes because, well, He didn't. His carefully chosen words to the religious leaders were on the mark every time. I believe this is why He got frustrated and angry with their hardness of heart.)

In the words that Jesus spoke, there is absolutely no entertainment of the idea that salvation is not for the world. He is just saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It says nothing of the future. It speaks only of the time. He didn't come for the faith of the house of Israel. He was sent, with a message, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Hence, the Cushite woman was not a part of it. This is an aside of me splitting hairs. Jesus got out His message (I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel), and he got to point out that, even so, this woman has more faith than any in Israel. This isn't the first time God does this to basically shame Israel. <end of splitting hairs>

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius. And we get an even wider view when God makes it clear that the Gentiles will be a part of the same church. There was no issue believing that Gentiles could be saved to God, however, that didn't mean that they would be first class citizens like the Jews. That didn't mean that the Gentiles would have the same access to God. However, the moment that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and started speaking in tongues, Peter pounced and pointed out that the Gentiles are the same. He asked who could forbid the water [of baptism] for these Gentiles, who received the same Holy Spirit as they had. The Gentiles officially joined the Jews as members of ONE church, by ONE gospel, by ONE Messiah, that day. It was not a separate program, it was part 2 of the program. Jesus gathering in the sheep of another flock. Part 3 will be when Part 2 comes to an end. (I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.) At that time, the partial blindness of Israel is lifted, and the remnant of Israel, God's elect that have not yet been saved, will be saved. (The natural branches of the vine being grafted back into the vine. NOT ALL, just the remnant. Those who remain alive after the tribulation is over. The elect for whom God shortened the time.

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius.

This is not the plan, but may have been allowed at times. Are you unaware that in Gal 2 Peter is considered the one who goes to the Jews? And he fails in it through their pressure about their traditions.

Just a note about the olive tree of Rom 11: it stands by faith. That means it is not any of the race-nations. People born to people in it may think they are "in" but that is dismissed over and over. We only stand in it by faith. It doesn't matter that the olive tree is the 'national symbol of Israel.'

 

[3 Resurrections]

Shortly come to pass is the end of the world or end of the age. Signified meaning made known through parables.

Shortly bring "the end" to pass

Genesis 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

This is absolutely correct on the scripture's double repetition of a statement meaning that a prophecy is not only established as certain to come to pass, but that it would also take place in a very short time - soon after the prophecy is given. In Joseph's case with Pharaoh's 2 dreams, that prophecy of 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine was going to take place almost immediately in the future for Egypt.

It is the same thing for John's visions in Revelation when God said those visions of the future would "shortly come to pass". He meant in John's days - not ours, some 2,000 years down the road. John repeated more than twice that future events in Revelation were "at hand" and "shortly" or "quickly" coming to pass. Just as in Joseph's case of interpreting Pharoah's two dreams, this doubling-up of repeated statements meant that these visions were not only established and certain to happen, but that God would "shortly bring it to pass" soon in John's days.

 

[EarlyActs]

And you missed my point. Why did John leave out the rest of the scripture, and why didn't he say that was fulfilled? His point is that Jesus fulfills the scripture about the Messiah. He fulfills what David said (as prophet), that His bones will not be broken, and also that they will cast lots for his clothes, and no decay would touch his body in the grave. After the Roman guard pierced Jesus side and he and his companion looked upon Him, John says that the scripture in Zechariah was fulfilled. Except that the prophecy (wide view) in Zechariah says that Israel, the Jews, look upon Jesus whom they have pierced. This prophecy runs deeper. One has to ask the reason for why John, on more than one occasion, mentions Jesus fulfilling scripture in such a way as to say, see? Jesus is the Messiah the Old Testament spoke of. There is A LOT more to what is in Zechariah beyond what John says here. His point is that this one they have pierced, whom Israel looks to in Zechariah, is Jesus. And here is the fulfillment. He has just been pierced by the Roman guard. And, what we should be understanding, is that this is on the behest of Israel, so it is Israel, through the proxy of Rome, that had pierced their Messiah.

I hope I have explained my understanding well enough. If I recall, John's purpose was to show that Jesus is who He claimed to be, the Messiah. So John often brought up where scripture was fulfilled in the person of Jesus. These scriptures are identified as Messianic prophecy. Thus, if Jesus is the fulfillment of these prophecies, that shows that Jesus is who He said He was, the Messiah. Again, do not lose the fact that the little snippet from Zechariah is part of a much larger prophecy that deals with the final redemption/reconciliation of the remnant of the nation of Israel. 2/3 will be destroyed, and 1/3 will be saved.

Zechariah 13
"8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

If you reread yourself, it will help. You are saying it did and did not fulfill the Zech prophecy.

 

[TMSO]

re the lost house
You're going to have to tone down TMSO. My comment has everything to do with the lost house. The lost house was supposed to be missionaries! That vision is what is "lost." That is why he is so interested in her faith and its being better than the race-nation Israel.

Please, show the passage that shows, without creative interpretation, that the lost sheep of the house of Israel are supposed to be missionaries. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are... lost sheep. This is why there are times in the gospel that Jesus looks at the people and takes compassion, seeing them as sheep that are lost and going astray. He is the Great Shepherd. His people have gone astray, and He has come to gather up His sheep. You will notice that NOTHING CHANGED after this incident. You have to consider that Jesus already knew what was going to happen, and He used it to shame the people who did not have faith. Look here, this gentile has more faith than you. Again, nothing changed from this encounter.

This is a very important distinction between the D'ist view of two programs. If you believe there are 2 then there is 'black and white' alternating between them--which is nonsense of course, but they believe it. The NT does not have this. It says there is a new 'nation' in Mt 22 that 'does the work of the vineyard.' How could it be more clear--and a play on words to boot!

The dispy's do not see two programs, but two parts to the same program. If you have a problem with what Paul wrote in Romans, you are going to have to take it up with God who had Paul write it. Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected Him. God sent a partial blindness upon Israel, and the times of the Gentiles comes into full swing. However, the blindness is only partial, which means that there are still people in Israel who are finding Jesus. However, the focus is not on Israel because they rejected. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then God will save Israel. (Remove the blindness, and save the remnant of Israel.) It is not that difficult to understand. There is a reason why Paul says that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Because there were gentiles who were proud, and they boasted in that branches were removed from the vine, so that they, strangers to the vine could be grafted in. All hail us and dunk on the previous branches. They are gone. What does Paul say? God will have an easier time putting the natural branches back in after removing those foreign branches.

What else does Paul tell us in Ephesians? The Jews are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Why? There is a delineation between Israel and the church. That ceases to exist when Jews become believers and join the church. Yet Israel is still standing out there. They are still our enemies for the sake of the gospel. One day, those walls will be knocked down and they will no longer be enemies.

 

[TMSO]

There is no official move past the Jews. But the messianic vision of all the nations hearing of Messiah is pursued. That continues on to the end of time.

Romans 10:
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Here you have it. A move past the Jews. However, you again have to notice what Moses says. "I will provoke you to jealousy..." If what you say is true, then this is not true.

The remnant has been saved all down through time (see the 1st 4 verses of ch11), there is no waiting some predetermined period for the rest of it.

" I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”"

Yes, the main argument of Paul is found here, but you missed it. What is Paul's question? "Has God cast away His people [Israel]? No. No He hasn't. So no matter how it looked it Paul's time, and how it appeared God had turned His back on Israel, we have right here, God's definitive answer through Paul. God has not cast them away. This speaks to FINALITY. Calvinists are right, and there is an elect chosen group of people from before the foundation of the world. Made up of both Jews and Gentiles. Why are you turning it into two programs, where what Paul is saying about the Jews here, was not true also for the Gentiles? Paul's point is that even though it appears that Israel's rejection is final, it is not.

One thing you don't realize you are doing is reading the Isaiah quote in Rom 11 as our future. He was clarifying what was happening then. The Redeemer came to Zion and took away sins (once again you have to know the difference between debt and doing sin to know the importance here; futurists usually say 'this is a period when Israel will be perfectly righteous' but this is not the idea at all.)

"11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!"

"28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

 

[TMSO]

The plan is that the gospel goes to the Gentiles after the Jews reject. (The official move of the gospel to the Gentiles.) We get a window with a view to what this means when God sends Peter to Cornelius.

This is not the plan, but may have been allowed at times. Are you unaware that in Gal 2 Peter is considered the one who goes to the Jews? And he fails in it through their pressure about their traditions.

Just a note about the olive tree of Rom 11: it stands by faith. That means it is not any of the race-nations. People born to people in it may think they are "in" but that is dismissed over and over. We only stand in it by faith. It doesn't matter that the olive tree is the 'national symbol of Israel.'

Again, you may want to reread what Paul wrote in Romans 11.

"11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!"

"28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

Note: When I say plan, I don't mean THE plan. It is a part of the whole. However, salvation was ALWAYS going to come from Israel.

 

[EarlyActs]

Please, show the passage that shows, without creative interpretation, that the lost sheep of the house of Israel are supposed to be missionaries. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are... lost sheep. This is why there are times in the gospel that Jesus looks at the people and takes compassion, seeing them as sheep that are lost and going astray. He is the Great Shepherd. His people have gone astray, and He has come to gather up His sheep. You will notice that NOTHING CHANGED after this incident. You have to consider that Jesus already knew what was going to happen, and He used it to shame the people who did not have faith. Look here, this gentile has more faith than you. Again, nothing changed from this encounter.

The dispy's do not see two programs, but two parts to the same program. If you have a problem with what Paul wrote in Romans, you are going to have to take it up with God who had Paul write it. Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected Him. God sent a partial blindness upon Israel, and the times of the Gentiles comes into full swing. However, the blindness is only partial, which means that there are still people in Israel who are finding Jesus. However, the focus is not on Israel because they rejected. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then God will save Israel. (Remove the blindness, and save the remnant of Israel.) It is not that difficult to understand. There is a reason why Paul says that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Because there were gentiles who were proud, and they boasted in that branches were removed from the vine, so that they, strangers to the vine could be grafted in. All hail us and dunk on the previous branches. They are gone. What does Paul say? God will have an easier time putting the natural branches back in after removing those foreign branches.

What else does Paul tell us in Ephesians? The Jews are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Why? There is a delineation between Israel and the church. That ceases to exist when Jews become believers and join the church. Yet Israel is still standing out there. They are still our enemies for the sake of the gospel. One day, those walls will be knocked down and they will no longer be enemies.

The training of the 70 was to speak to all nations and rulers.

All through his ministry he declared that he gave his life for the world, 'not for these sheep only but others I will bring into my fold.'

He had several positive encounters with Gentiles. Sometimes they were even seeking him when it happened.

When he gives his commission, it is that the group he trained (the 70 + the 12) would go to the whole world.

The missionary emphasis is packed in Rom 10 especially; "how do (the world) hear if those (from Israel) are not taught and sent?" In Rom 11, we find that if Jews would go work in the outreach, there would be even more results.

In Mt 22, he creates a new 'nation' (play on words; he did not mean a country), that would do the work of the vineyard. It doesn't take much thought to realize that, between that and the fact that this parable is built on Is 5, He thought of them as missionaries.

Acts 13 quotes Isaiah 42 and 49:
47 For this[ft] is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have appointed[fu] you to be a light[fv] for the Gentiles, to bring salvation[fw] to the ends of the earth.’
The interesting thing here is that the Servant is the antecedent, but who would Isaiah have been speaking to? Israel. So you could say Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, but it has to be through Christ. Not because of the prowess of them as a race-nation. This is why this line is quoted in a remote part of Asia, in a synagogue, and is opposed by Jews.

In the nativity songs of Luke, we see the mission is already declared and understood.
For my eyes have seen your salvation[ci]
31 that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:[cj]
32 a light,[ck]
for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory[cl] to your people Israel.”
Israel would have glory to the degree that they reached the nations.

All of this is why Paul said at the end of his career: "I will all people were like me, except for these chains!" He was speaking specifically of the fact that Moses and the Prophets had told "us" to reach the nations.

Since you are not very familiar with the NT, I hope you will spend 10x more reading than posting here.

 

[EarlyActs]

Please, show the passage that shows, without creative interpretation, that the lost sheep of the house of Israel are supposed to be missionaries. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are... lost sheep. This is why there are times in the gospel that Jesus looks at the people and takes compassion, seeing them as sheep that are lost and going astray. He is the Great Shepherd. His people have gone astray, and He has come to gather up His sheep. You will notice that NOTHING CHANGED after this incident. You have to consider that Jesus already knew what was going to happen, and He used it to shame the people who did not have faith. Look here, this gentile has more faith than you. Again, nothing changed from this encounter.

The dispy's do not see two programs, but two parts to the same program. If you have a problem with what Paul wrote in Romans, you are going to have to take it up with God who had Paul write it. Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected Him. God sent a partial blindness upon Israel, and the times of the Gentiles comes into full swing. However, the blindness is only partial, which means that there are still people in Israel who are finding Jesus. However, the focus is not on Israel because they rejected. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then God will save Israel. (Remove the blindness, and save the remnant of Israel.) It is not that difficult to understand. There is a reason why Paul says that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Because there were gentiles who were proud, and they boasted in that branches were removed from the vine, so that they, strangers to the vine could be grafted in. All hail us and dunk on the previous branches. They are gone. What does Paul say? God will have an easier time putting the natural branches back in after removing those foreign branches.

What else does Paul tell us in Ephesians? The Jews are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Why? There is a delineation between Israel and the church. That ceases to exist when Jews become believers and join the church. Yet Israel is still standing out there. They are still our enemies for the sake of the gospel. One day, those walls will be knocked down and they will no longer be enemies.

The OT quotes at the beginning of 11 show that Israel has been partially blind the whole time. There are actually several OT quotes about this: "Seeing, they do not see..." etc. It is not just at the rejection of Christ. "All day long I have held out my hands..." goes way back into the OT.

This is why the Greek uses the expression in Rom 11:26 "Kai houtos..." referring to this same partially-blinded manner, the true Israel will be saved (it is mentioned in 9:6 and 24 "us"). He didn't mean the whole race-nation (which is nonsensical because of all those in the past who have died). He meant the true Israel would be saved (justified from their sins) while there was the ongoing partial blindness of the race-nation. That is the condition to the end of time. This was to clear up whether there was any saving value in being born Jewish; there is not. Same message as Jn 1 and 3 and 8.

D'ism is a very low-informed system that dangles from about 6 passages and does not understand the overall drama of the NT>

 

[EarlyActs]

Please, show the passage that shows, without creative interpretation, that the lost sheep of the house of Israel are supposed to be missionaries. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are... lost sheep. This is why there are times in the gospel that Jesus looks at the people and takes compassion, seeing them as sheep that are lost and going astray. He is the Great Shepherd. His people have gone astray, and He has come to gather up His sheep. You will notice that NOTHING CHANGED after this incident. You have to consider that Jesus already knew what was going to happen, and He used it to shame the people who did not have faith. Look here, this gentile has more faith than you. Again, nothing changed from this encounter.

The dispy's do not see two programs, but two parts to the same program. If you have a problem with what Paul wrote in Romans, you are going to have to take it up with God who had Paul write it. Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected Him. God sent a partial blindness upon Israel, and the times of the Gentiles comes into full swing. However, the blindness is only partial, which means that there are still people in Israel who are finding Jesus. However, the focus is not on Israel because they rejected. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then God will save Israel. (Remove the blindness, and save the remnant of Israel.) It is not that difficult to understand. There is a reason why Paul says that salvation is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why? Because there were gentiles who were proud, and they boasted in that branches were removed from the vine, so that they, strangers to the vine could be grafted in. All hail us and dunk on the previous branches. They are gone. What does Paul say? God will have an easier time putting the natural branches back in after removing those foreign branches.

What else does Paul tell us in Ephesians? The Jews are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Why? There is a delineation between Israel and the church. That ceases to exist when Jews become believers and join the church. Yet Israel is still standing out there. They are still our enemies for the sake of the gospel. One day, those walls will be knocked down and they will no longer be enemies.

The first chapter of Ryrie's book, a text at Dallas Seminary for decades, begins "The distinction between the two programs--Israel and the church--is the sine qua non of Dispensationalism." (s.q.n. = the single defining thing).

You really do not know what Ephesians is saying. All your allusions are from Romans. The main thing is that the mystery was not that Gentiles would believe, it is that that they gain co-inheritance and co-membership status with "Israel" through the Gospel, 3:6. That is exactly where the member of Judaism would have expected to read 'through the torah.'

Yes, a remnant is always saved, but as Isaiah said "It is too small a thing for (the Servant) to save the remnant of Israel; (God) will make (the Servant) a light to the nations." Proof again that the mission to the Gentiles is what Israel was destined to do, and was no surprise or mystery.