The 1000 year Millennium from the Bible

[TMSO]

But nothing happened across the world like v29 says. That's clear. So the whole thing is to be read in the normal sense, but there is a delay at v29, which is why 2 Peter 3 was written, also why Mk 13 give 4 very different times for the return, and maybe why Jesus said in a few verses that 'only the Father knows the end.'

So is that the answer? If it doesn't follow my belief, we have to change what it means? Or, is it possible the answer could be found in another belief, that doesn't have to change ANYTHING to get it to fit? The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of has not happened yet. Hence the verse that says "immediately" has not reached the point to be fulfilled, because it immediately follows this great tribulation. God has allowed Peter's message to be preserved in the Bible we have today, because we need it. For Jesus reigns over the Earth in the millennium, so those who say the millennium is now, says Jesus reigns over sin and death. However, Jesus reign is not over sin and death, but life. His kingdom is not established until his enemies have been made His footstool.
Psalm 110:
"The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"

Consider:

I Corinthians 15
"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Consider this understanding of the Millennium as presented in Revelation. First, Jesus destroys the beast, his image, his prophet, and all the armies coming to destroy Jerusalem. Satan is bound. Jesus reigns for a thousand years in Jerusalem with the saints. Satan is released to deceive the nations into attacking the camps of the righteous and the holy city, and Jesus finally destroys Satan and all these armies, and what does He do? He throws the devil, hell, hades, and... death into the lake of fire. So Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for a thousand years, after which He finally destroys the last enemy, death. At this point, according to I Corinthians 15, all God's enemies are dead and gone, and the Kingdom is returned to the Father. "27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.""

In this way, Jesus reign on Earth was never intended to be eternal. His reign lasts until He finally destroys death.

Revelation 20:
"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death."

This is the context of scripture. David, quoted by Jesus to show He is God and not simply David's Son/seed, Paul, who explains the end, and Revelation that shows when it occurs. If you need a little more, I didn't include the next verse of the Psalm which talks of Him ruling in the midst of His enemies.

 

[turbomaniac]

Revelation shows us the events at the end..

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now here's a breakdown of each verse in Revelation 20..

vs. 1 - An angel descends from heaven with a key and a chain.
vs. 2 - He binds Satan for 1000 years.
vs. 3 - During the 1000 years Satan cannot deceive the nations any more.
vs. 4 - Martyrs are resurrected to reign with Jesus Christ for 1000 years.
vs. 5a - The rest of the dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 6 - Those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
vs. 7 - Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 8 ; After the rest of the dead are raised, Satan deceives them again. There will be billions - like the sand of the sea. They are called Gog and Magog. Satan gathers them for a final battle.
vs. 9 - Satan and this host surround God's City. Fire comes down and devours them.
vs. 10 - Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet end up in this lake of fire.
vs. 11 - Before this fire falls, a final judgment occurs.
vs. 12 - All the resurrected lost are judged.
vs. 13 - Another description of the resurrected lost being judged.
vs. 14 - Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
vs. 15 - All the resurrected lost are cast into the lake of fire.

So what happens in the events that are shown to us here. We see that there is a good resurrection which is called the first resurrection at the beginning of the 1000 years in verses 4-6, whereas the rest of the dead are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. Satan is bound during the 1000 years as we see in verse 3, but is loosed when the thousand years are done as we see in verse 7, and notice this is also when the rest of the dead are raised, see verse 5. Now with these dead which are not from the first resurrection, so they are the lost going to damnation, Satan gathers them for a final battle against God's City as we see in verse 8. A final judgment occurs, and then the lost are punished in the lake of fire, So who are the ones that will not see the first resurrection but come up after the 1000 years at the second one.

Christ clearly spoke of two resurrections when He said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation" John 5:29.

The apostle Paul also spoke of these two resurrections when he said, "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" in Acts 24:15. So both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of life for the just, and the second being the resurrection of damnation for the unjust. Now Christ comes in the second coming to take the saints to heaven , but Christ does not step on earth, the saints are lifted into to the air from their graves.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Both the Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue.
1 Corinthians 15:16
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Life will be restored to those saints who have died in the resurrection on the last day and they with those saints which are alive shall be taken up with the Lord.

Tell me something please. Do you accept that Jesus Christ is God equal God to His Father?

 

[Mr GLee]

God is not a man, but God became incarnate as John 1 says. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:14, The Word took upon itself flesh, and set His dwelling among His people. So God took on flesh, made Himself as a human, and dwelt on Earth as we do. In this case, Jesus, of the seed of David, a Jewish man. Who, to a Cushite Woman said that He had been sent to the lost sheep of the children of Israel, not for the Gentiles. However, that is not the end of the story, because later it speaks of "another flock" that is not His own that He must go gather. This was the Gentiles.

God cannot take upon his own self. . . flesh . He has none (God is not a man) He is not what some call a shift changer .

Flesh must be created .Let there be and there was flesh .Then God breathed into the clay the spirit of life.

Jesus said of his own dying Jewish flesh it "profits for nothing".

Why would one desire to make dying flesh and blood profit ? .

How would be considered walking by faith after the unseen eternal things of God ?

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Millennium is a zap process.

Yes, it was. But this is different than the unending reign of God over the universe, and Christ's unending reign as our Great High Priest.

Let me picture this for you in geometry terms. Lets say that God's eternal reign over all things is represented by a line extending one way into eternity past and the other way into eternity future. His throne is of old and his kingdom is from everlasting to everlasting. Like this:

<------------------------------------God's eternal reign----------------------------------------->

Now, here's a look at history with the past millennium of Satan's deception being bound, represented by a segment from point A to point B (968/967 BC until AD 33). Like this:

<-----A-----Satan's deception of the nations bound -----B---------------------------------->


Now, here is where the kingdom of Christ Jesus starts with His resurrection-day ascension at the very end of that millennium, represented as a ray beginning with point C on this eternal timeline, with ray C extending into eternity future, since the angel told Mary that Christ's kingdom would never have an end. Like this:

<-----A----Satan's deception of the nations bound----B/C------ Christ as high priest king from AD 33------->


Starting at point C on this timeline at the end of the millennium, Satan had only a "short time" and a "little season" to exist and to deceive the nations once more, from AD 33 until AD 70 when God slew him. We could represent that "short time" as another segment from point C until point D. Like this:

<-----A----Satan's deception of the nations bound------B/C---Satan released----D-------Christ as high priest king from AD 33--->


Just because Satan's deception of the nations was bound does not mean he did not attempt to deceive anyone, such as Christ in the wilderness temptation, or desiring to sift Peter as wheat. The terms of this literal millennium period would be that Satan could not succeed in his efforts to deceive the nations during that millennium.
The terms of the millennium also do not eliminate the fact that people could deceive themselves during that time. After all, the heart itself is deceitful above all things.

Consider that demon possession is still a thing today, if not wide spread or not recognized

If God told us when He was going to dispose of the entire Satanic realm (which was done by AD 70), then it is only people's personal beliefs that are driving their perception of what they think is a case of demonic possession since then. Mother church has used the fear of the Satanic and demonic to maintain a fearful subjection to the institutional church through the centuries. It keeps the money rolling in, and the oppressive power of the church hierarchy intact.

 

[EarlyActs]

So is that the answer? If it doesn't follow my belief, we have to change what it means? Or, is it possible the answer could be found in another belief, that doesn't have to change ANYTHING to get it to fit? The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of has not happened yet. Hence the verse that says "immediately" has not reached the point to be fulfilled, because it immediately follows this great tribulation. God has allowed Peter's message to be preserved in the Bible we have today, because we need it. For Jesus reigns over the Earth in the millennium, so those who say the millennium is now, says Jesus reigns over sin and death. However, Jesus reign is not over sin and death, but life. His kingdom is not established until his enemies have been made His footstool.
Psalm 110:
"The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"

Consider:

I Corinthians 15
"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Consider this understanding of the Millennium as presented in Revelation. First, Jesus destroys the beast, his image, his prophet, and all the armies coming to destroy Jerusalem. Satan is bound. Jesus reigns for a thousand years in Jerusalem with the saints. Satan is released to deceive the nations into attacking the camps of the righteous and the holy city, and Jesus finally destroys Satan and all these armies, and what does He do? He throws the devil, hell, hades, and... death into the lake of fire. So Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for a thousand years, after which He finally destroys the last enemy, death. At this point, according to I Corinthians 15, all God's enemies are dead and gone, and the Kingdom is returned to the Father. "27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.""

In this way, Jesus reign on Earth was never intended to be eternal. His reign lasts until He finally destroys death.

Revelation 20:
"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death."

This is the context of scripture. David, quoted by Jesus to show He is God and not simply David's Son/seed, Paul, who explains the end, and Revelation that shows when it occurs. If you need a little more, I didn't include the next verse of the Psalm which talks of Him ruling in the midst of His enemies.

In the normal conversation that they were having, he was speaking of the things that would happen in that generation; all of them did, in that 'world.' That is why most of 1-29 is set in Judea; that is why Dan 9 is quoted (the only time in the NT) because it is happening--the evil person in the temple, the destruction of the country.

Then at v29 we learn of a world-wide judgement, which has not happened yet. Hence, a delay. This is why 2 Peter 3 was written--to explain this very delay.

 

[EarlyActs]

So is that the answer? If it doesn't follow my belief, we have to change what it means? Or, is it possible the answer could be found in another belief, that doesn't have to change ANYTHING to get it to fit? The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of has not happened yet. Hence the verse that says "immediately" has not reached the point to be fulfilled, because it immediately follows this great tribulation. God has allowed Peter's message to be preserved in the Bible we have today, because we need it. For Jesus reigns over the Earth in the millennium, so those who say the millennium is now, says Jesus reigns over sin and death. However, Jesus reign is not over sin and death, but life. His kingdom is not established until his enemies have been made His footstool.
Psalm 110:
"The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"

Consider:

I Corinthians 15
"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

Consider this understanding of the Millennium as presented in Revelation. First, Jesus destroys the beast, his image, his prophet, and all the armies coming to destroy Jerusalem. Satan is bound. Jesus reigns for a thousand years in Jerusalem with the saints. Satan is released to deceive the nations into attacking the camps of the righteous and the holy city, and Jesus finally destroys Satan and all these armies, and what does He do? He throws the devil, hell, hades, and... death into the lake of fire. So Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for a thousand years, after which He finally destroys the last enemy, death. At this point, according to I Corinthians 15, all God's enemies are dead and gone, and the Kingdom is returned to the Father. "27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.""

In this way, Jesus reign on Earth was never intended to be eternal. His reign lasts until He finally destroys death.

Revelation 20:
"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death."

This is the context of scripture. David, quoted by Jesus to show He is God and not simply David's Son/seed, Paul, who explains the end, and Revelation that shows when it occurs. If you need a little more, I didn't include the next verse of the Psalm which talks of Him ruling in the midst of His enemies.

I don't base any doctrine on passages in the Rev which are not perfectly clear elsewhere. The millenium is one of those, utterly unclear. Not mentioned in any other NT passage. I also see it has a time of trouble at the end, so that is a very good fit with the theme of Jesus being enthroned in the resurrection, already.

The NT idea of the 'reign of God' is not that we would read about it in the newspapers. It is not a human government. It is the fact that Jesus deserves all honor, from all rulers down to all carpenters. Those who deny this will be smashed.

That's why in early Acts, we see these 4 Psalms get the most attention: 2, 16, 110, 118. David foresaw the resurrection as the enthronement in 2:30. There is no other way the grammar works.

 

[EarlyActs]

re 'it doesn't say what I think so change it.'
Most D'ists think that the "Bible" already says what D'ism says. This was the genius marketing tool of D'ism when it started around 1900: the Bible does not make sense; you need us to make sense of it with the 2 programs.

I'm reporting what it says and don't care if I line up with D'ism or not. M. Sanford THE COVENANT REVOLT and THE ENTHRONED KING. At Amazon.

 

[TMSO]

God cannot take upon his own self. . . flesh . He has none (God is not a man) He is not what some call a shift changer .

Flesh must be created .Let there be and there was flesh .Then God breathed into the clay the spirit of life.

Jesus said of his own dying Jewish flesh it "profits for nothing".

Why would one desire to make dying flesh and blood profit ? .

How would be considered walking by faith after the unseen eternal things of God ?

You have made it obvious that further conversation is impossible. Jesus is God, and Jesus is man. Jesus told the people that if you have seen Him (Jesus) then you have seen the Father. Jesus was a visible representation of the Father. God not only could take flesh upon Himself, He did. You may want to reread John 1 where the word that was with God and WAS God, took upon Himself flesh and dwelt among us. The Bible is very clear on this. Scripture also says that Jesus created everything, and without Him NOTHING as created, which would include Himself, would it not? So He also was not created.

How often have we read in the Bible that a MAN (solely a man) dying for someone else means nothing? That we cannot die for our own sins because we die IN our own sins? If Jesus was simply a man, did He not need to die for His own sin? However, if Jesus was both God and man, then that sacrifice transcends reality. You would have to read the Bible to find out why. (Hebrews may give an idea, since Hebrews says Jesus sacrifice was more perfect than any of the Jewish sacrifices, and was actually the pinnacle, and the last sacrifice, the only one needed.

 

[TMSO]

Yes, it was. But this is different than the unending reign of God over the universe, and Christ's unending reign as our Great High Priest.

Let me picture this for you in geometry terms. Lets say that God's eternal reign over all things is represented by a line extending one way into eternity past and the other way into eternity future. His throne is of old and his kingdom is from everlasting to everlasting. Like this:

<------------------------------------God's eternal reign----------------------------------------->

Now, here's a look at history with the past millennium of Satan's deception being bound, represented by a segment from point A to point B (968/967 BC until AD 33). Like this:

<-----A-----Satan's deception of the nations bound -----B---------------------------------->


Now, here is where the kingdom of Christ Jesus starts with His resurrection-day ascension at the very end of that millennium, represented as a ray beginning with point C on this eternal timeline, with ray C extending into eternity future, since the angel told Mary that Christ's kingdom would never have an end. Like this:

<-----A----Satan's deception of the nations bound----B/C------ Christ as high priest king from AD 33------->


Starting at point C on this timeline at the end of the millennium, Satan had only a "short time" and a "little season" to exist and to deceive the nations once more, from AD 33 until AD 70 when God slew him. We could represent that "short time" as another segment from point C until point D. Like this:

<-----A----Satan's deception of the nations bound------B/C---Satan released----D-------Christ as high priest king from AD 33--->


Just because Satan's deception of the nations was bound does not mean he did not attempt to deceive anyone, such as Christ in the wilderness temptation, or desiring to sift Peter as wheat. The terms of this literal millennium period would be that Satan could not succeed in his efforts to deceive the nations during that millennium.
The terms of the millennium also do not eliminate the fact that people could deceive themselves during that time. After all, the heart itself is deceitful above all things.


If God told us when He was going to dispose of the entire Satanic realm (which was done by AD 70), then it is only people's personal beliefs that are driving their perception of what they think is a case of demonic possession since then. Mother church has used the fear of the Satanic and demonic to maintain a fearful subjection to the institutional church through the centuries. It keeps the money rolling in, and the oppressive power of the church hierarchy intact.

Please, don't be indredulous. The Bible paints a very clear picture of what was done to Satan after his armies were destroyed by Jesus physical return to rescue His people. Except... Jesus hasn't physically returned. Which means... it hasn't happened yet. What is the picture. An angel with a huge big chain comes down with the keys to the abyss (Hmm... where have we read about this before?) who opens the pit and grabs and binds up Satan in this big chains, and locks him inside the bottomless pit. He is a prisoner. He can't move. Is not not free to roam around deceiving nations because... he's bound in some huge chains in a bottomless pit. John is painting a very clear picture of the condition of Satan. He is out of the picture. Yes, it may be true that even God's power has limits (note: IT IS NOT), in which case, PERHAPS Satan can subvert God in this case and do things. (Why does it always come down to God not being powerful enough, or that God may have said this, but I can wordsmith it to show He said something different, and we'll go with that instead of what He said?)

During this time, Jesus will fulfill the promises made in the Old Testament, and He will rule over Israel from Jerusalem, in this case the Bible says a thousand years. The world will basically be like it was at the time of creation, however death will still be around, however Satan will not be stirring up any trouble. Then, after the population of the world has recovered over a thousand years, Satan will be released for one last time, FOR A SHORT TIME. In that time He will deceive all the nations of the world into attacking the encampments of the saints, and the beloved city (Jerusalem). They will be utterly wiped out with Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, along with all whose name is not found in the book of light. And finally, as scripture says, the final enemy will be destroyed when hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire. It is at that point that the Son returns the kingdom to the Father. At the time the Earth will be destroyed, the heavens will be destroyed, and there will be a new heavens and new earth, untarnished by sin. For we are not the only ones who suffer in sin, but so does all creation.

 

[TMSO]

In the normal conversation that they were having, he was speaking of the things that would happen in that generation; all of them did, in that 'world.' That is why most of 1-29 is set in Judea; that is why Dan 9 is quoted (the only time in the NT) because it is happening--the evil person in the temple, the destruction of the country.

These verse in Matthew 24 are completely isolated from the rest of the chapter: "Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”"

This is an isolated event. It is not connected to what happened at the Olivet Discourse in Matthew. Why? Beginning of the third verse "3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately" So, he is no longer walking at the temple, no longer discussing the temple, he is now on the Mount of Olives. What do the disciples do? They ask TWO different questions. "“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”" What is his answer when asking for the sign of His coming, and the end of the age?

"36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

You will notice that there isn't one single sign in that whole section. No signs. Why? If Jesus doesn't know when He is returning, how can He know the signs that will be around when He does? He doesn't have any signs. All He says is that things will be like they were in the age of noah (that is, normal living), and then... done. And no one will know, just as those in Noah's age had no signs portaining to the coming of a flood. There were none. It just... happened. (In their eyes.) It happened when God was finally able to shut Noah and family into the Ark. As Peter says, God was longsuffering through the whole time it took Noah to build that ark.

However, if you believe week 70 is over, show me where all of this happened.
“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy."

So, how is it supposed to be at the end of the 70 weeks? Transgression is finished, sin is ended, inquity reconciled, everlasting righteousness is here, etc. Have you seen any of this? Where is the everlasting righteousness on Earth? Also, the Most Holy is not anointed until ALL His enemis are under His feet, to include death. Is death dead yet? The kingdom is not returned to the Father until death is defeated, which is in Revelation 20, and shows that death is thrown into the lake of fire. At that point, there is no more death. However, death is everywhere.

Then at v29 we learn of a world-wide judgement, which has not happened yet. Hence, a delay. This is why 2 Peter 3 was written--to explain this very delay.

Yes, and the first words of verse 29 deny a delay. "29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Why is it immediately after? And since when has God saying "immediately after" meant, there is going to be a long delay?

 

[TMSO]

I don't base any doctrine on passages in the Rev which are not perfectly clear elsewhere. The millenium is one of those, utterly unclear. Not mentioned in any other NT passage. I also see it has a time of trouble at the end, so that is a very good fit with the theme of Jesus being enthroned in the resurrection, already.

The NT idea of the 'reign of God' is not that we would read about it in the newspapers. It is not a human government. It is the fact that Jesus deserves all honor, from all rulers down to all carpenters. Those who deny this will be smashed.

That's why in early Acts, we see these 4 Psalms get the most attention: 2, 16, 110, 118. David foresaw the resurrection as the enthronement in 2:30. There is no other way the grammar works.

Actually, I find the millennium passages in Revelation to be very clear. The tribulation will happen, at the end of which the antichrist, the beast, his image, and all their armies will come upon Jerusalem to destroy it, and Jesus will return to Earth at that time, with His armies, and they will wipe them all out. After which, Satan will not be completely defeated yet, but will be bound where he will no longer have influence. (Can no longer deceive the nations into attacking Israel.) So at this time, Jerusalem becomes the theocratic head of the world, with Jesus at Jersualem. All the nations of the world will come to Israel to celebrate the feasts and festivals, or face desolation. (That is a prophecy from the Old Testament)

At the end of the millennium, Jesus will defeat His final enemy, death, and hades and death will be thrown into the lake of fire. It is even ordered that way. Satan and those whose names aren't in the book of life are all first in line, then hades and death. At this time God will destroy the heavens and the earth, and will present a new heavens and a new earth, uncorrupted by sin. Jesus will give the kingdom back to the Father, and that's basically all the Bible covers up to. (Oh, I can't forget, and we will live with and worship God into eternity...)

 

[3 Resurrections]

What is the picture. An angel with a huge big chain comes down with the keys to the abyss (Hmm... where have we read about this before?) who opens the pit and grabs and binds up Satan in this big chains, and locks him inside the bottomless pit. He is a prisoner. He can't move. Is not not free to roam around deceiving nations because... he's bound in some huge chains in a bottomless pit. John is painting a very clear picture of the condition of Satan. He is out of the picture.

That is not how Revelation 12 describes the binding of Satan. He is bound with the sole purpose that he can no more deceive the nations for those literal thousand years. This does not require that Satan cannot move or is physically a prisoner bound with a literal chain, sealed with a literal seal in a literal dirt pit with no bottom to it. You are missing the symbolism. Binding deception of the nations is not a physical thing that can be controlled physically by physical means.

And this millennium prediction in Revelation 20 says absolutely nothing about Jesus reigning physically in Jerusalem on a throne, or about the world returning to an Edenic condition with increased population growth. Those are suppositions that are found nowhere in Revelation 20 at all. And John wrote that the "short time" of Satan's release (after the millennium's ending) had already started, some time before he was writing Revelation 12:12. That was the purpose of John's warning to the church in Revelation 12:12.

 

[TMSO]

That is not how Revelation 12 describes the binding of Satan. He is bound with the sole purpose that he can no more deceive the nations for those literal thousand years. This does not require that Satan cannot move or is physically a prisoner bound with a literal chain, sealed with a literal seal in a literal dirt pit with no bottom to it. You are missing the symbolism. Binding deception of the nations is not a physical thing that can be controlled physically by physical means.

Ah. You assume. I understand. If it goes against your belief, assume it away. You would think that the layers of, this guy isn't going anywhere, would let you know that... this guy isn't going anywhere.

And this millennium prediction in Revelation 20 says absolutely nothing about Jesus reigning physically in Jerusalem on a throne, or about the world returning to an Edenic condition with increased population growth. Those are suppositions that are found nowhere in Revelation 20 at all. And John wrote that the "short time" of Satan's release (after the millennium's ending) had already started, some time before he was writing Revelation 12:12. That was the purpose of John's warning to the church in Revelation 12:12.

No, you are just denying what Paul wrote in Corinthians. At the end of the millennium, as seen in Revelation 20, death is thrown into the lake of fire. Therefore, if what you have said is correct, there should be no more death.

 

[Hobie]

You fail to understand what Satan's deception of all the nations is. Revelation declares that this deception is the deceiving the nations into attacking Israel/Jerusalem, the seat of Jesus kingdom, the seat of King David. Obviously if Satan could destroy Jerusalem, Satan automatically wins the war. God's promises in the Old and New Testaments fail. Salvation will come from Israel. If Israel is destroyed utterly, from where will our salvation come? And then, a promise of a millennial kingdom from the seat of David. If that is destroyed, then what kingdom? The Old Testament is replete in its prophecies of the final triumph of Israel, and through their Messiah.

You left out what it says when Satan is released.

"7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

So he was locked up so that he would not deceive the nations, and then was released so he would go out and deceive the nations. What was this deception that Satan was hindered from doing? "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city." The Old Testament is clear that Jerusalem is the beloved city.

Satan is released to deceive the nations into attacking the camp of the saints and Jerusalem. Satan's deceptions have all been about attacking God and His children. (He attacks God by attacking His children.) If God fails and Satan is victorious over the saints and Jerusalem (utter destruction of Israel), then Satan wins, because God promised in the Old Testament that He would always be Israel's protector. (At the end of the day, God never rejected Israel, but will fulfill the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.)

It is Gods New Jerusalem, not the old broken down divided piece of real estate in Israel, need to understand what Gods Word says..
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[Mr GLee]

You have made it obvious that further conversation is impossible. Jesus is God, and Jesus is man. Jesus told the people that if you have seen Him (Jesus) then you have seen the Father. Jesus was a visible representation of the Father. God not only could take flesh upon Himself, He did. You may want to reread John 1 where the word that was with God and WAS God, took upon Himself flesh and dwelt among us. The Bible is very clear on this. Scripture also says that Jesus created everything, and without Him NOTHING as created, which would include Himself, would it not? So He also was not created.

How often have we read in the Bible that a MAN (solely a man) dying for someone else means nothing? That we cannot die for our own sins because we die IN our own sins? If Jesus was simply a man, did He not need to die for His own sin? However, if Jesus was both God and man, then that sacrifice transcends reality. You would have to read the Bible to find out why. (Hebrews may give an idea, since Hebrews says Jesus sacrifice was more perfect than any of the Jewish sacrifices, and was actually the pinnacle, and the last sacrifice, the only one needed.

Hi thanks, I would offer.

Yes, Eternal God the Faithful and True Creator is not a man a creation.

The wrath comes to those that worship and serve the creature clay more than the Potter who forms clay.

Romans25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In that way no man can serve two good teaching masters as Lord of earthly lords .

Do we serve the Son of man the prophet Jesus? Or do we serve the unseen Holy Father the Spirit of truth who revealed his unseen power in dying mankind.

The Son of Man, Jesus replied. Not as I will (no power) but as you will the one with power to raise mankind to new born again life.

Mark 10:17-18 King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Please, don't be indredulous. The Bible paints a very clear picture of what was done to Satan after his armies were destroyed by Jesus physical return to rescue His people. Except... Jesus hasn't physically returned. Which means... it hasn't happened yet.

The scripture paints a very clear picture that Christ Jesus would return before some of those standing in front of Him had died (Matthew 16:27-28). That means God has already done those things to Satan after his armies were destroyed by Jesus's physical return in that first-century generation.

Ah. You assume. I understand. If it goes against your belief, assume it away. You would think that the layers of, this guy isn't going anywhere, would let you know that... this guy isn't going anywhere.

I "assume" nothing about the binding of Satan. I believe only what the scriptures say about that binding of Satan, which scripture in Rev. 20:3 says was composed of Satan not being able to deceive the nations during that time. Scripture also says in Matthew 12:28-29 that this binding of Satan must have FIRST been done to Satan, the symbolic "strong man", before Christ could be "spoiling his goods" by casting out devils from individuals during His earthly ministry. That means the millennial binding of Satan was done at some point before Christ's public ministry.

This "abyss" (abysson) that Satan was "sealed" in was not a physical location; it was a state of being, or we should say a "non-functioning state of being". This was the very same condition that was true for Christ in Romans 10:7, who was also said to be in the abyss (abysson) while His physical body was dead and His spirit was in the Hadean realm.

No, you are just denying what Paul wrote in Corinthians. At the end of the millennium, as seen in Revelation 20, death is thrown into the lake of fire. Therefore, if what you have said is correct, there should be no more death.

Which reference in Corinthians are you even referring to? Corinthians hasn't even been brought up in this discussion, as far as I know.

You are not understanding what the Lake of Fire / Second Death occasion actually was. As you have noted above, the Lake of Fire / Second Death came after the millennium. Specifically, that was about 4 decades after the end of the millennium in AD 33. Death and Hell came to Jerusalem once before in 586 BC with the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem and its temple (Isaiah 28:14-19). Death and Hell came again for the second time to Jerusalem in AD 66-70 to accomplish the city and the temple's "second death", when the city quite literally turned into a lake of fire during its physical destruction at the last.

 

[Mr GLee]

The scripture paints a very clear picture that Christ Jesus would return before some of those standing in front of Him had died (Matthew 16:27-28). That means God has already done those things to Satan after his armies were destroyed by Jesus's physical return in that first-century generation

Physical return?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Physical return?

Meaning a bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied by Zechariah 14:4-5. It involved the same glorified, resurrected body which Christ ascended with in Acts 1.

 

[Mr GLee]

Meaning a bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives, as prophesied by Zechariah 14:4-5. It involved the same glorified, resurrected body which Christ ascended with in Acts 1.

The same one by which we know Christ who worked in the Son of man, Jesus . and we can know never again? One promised demonstration of the power of the Father strengthening he Son of man Jesus was all that was prophesied .

God is not a man He is a Spirit of truth that works in men

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[EarlyActs]

These verse in Matthew 24 are completely isolated from the rest of the chapter: "Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”"

This is an isolated event. It is not connected to what happened at the Olivet Discourse in Matthew. Why? Beginning of the third verse "3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately" So, he is no longer walking at the temple, no longer discussing the temple, he is now on the Mount of Olives. What do the disciples do? They ask TWO different questions. "“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”" What is his answer when asking for the sign of His coming, and the end of the age?

"36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

You will notice that there isn't one single sign in that whole section. No signs. Why? If Jesus doesn't know when He is returning, how can He know the signs that will be around when He does? He doesn't have any signs. All He says is that things will be like they were in the age of noah (that is, normal living), and then... done. And no one will know, just as those in Noah's age had no signs portaining to the coming of a flood. There were none. It just... happened. (In their eyes.) It happened when God was finally able to shut Noah and family into the Ark. As Peter says, God was longsuffering through the whole time it took Noah to build that ark.

However, if you believe week 70 is over, show me where all of this happened.
“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy."

So, how is it supposed to be at the end of the 70 weeks? Transgression is finished, sin is ended, inquity reconciled, everlasting righteousness is here, etc. Have you seen any of this? Where is the everlasting righteousness on Earth? Also, the Most Holy is not anointed until ALL His enemis are under His feet, to include death. Is death dead yet? The kingdom is not returned to the Father until death is defeated, which is in Revelation 20, and shows that death is thrown into the lake of fire. At that point, there is no more death. However, death is everywhere.

Yes, and the first words of verse 29 deny a delay. "29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Why is it immediately after? And since when has God saying "immediately after" meant, there is going to be a long delay?

As the writing goes, we were meant to view the flow of Mt24 continuous; otherwise there would be some other topic and a return. This is seen all through the narratives.

Apparently you don't realize the sense of the Gospel about sin, righteousness, atonement, etc. He is describing the Gospel. Imputed righteousness does not mean people stop sinning, but that there is credit for our past sins. "to make atonement for sin" how could it be more connected to the letter to Hebrews? Messiah gets cut off but not for himself--he accomplishes all these things for others. Thus Romans 3 declares in the most important Christian paragraph, 3:21--26: the righteousness of God is now revealed that had been described in Moses and the prophets.

The immediacy is why the NT is full of references that place their generation as last and the wrath of God coming shortly. Do you need examples? The opening of the 1st Christian sermon? "These are these days...Joel spoke of..."

Even if 2 P 3 is dated before the destruction of Jerusalem, in principle it still stands: God might delay for redemptive reasons, to save more people. Only the Father knew the last day, and Mk 13 gives 4 options.

There were signs; he had already been giving them. You are the first person I've read who does not think so. Josephus even records other strange but Judaic-targeted signs which occurred during the siege and destruction.