Synergism

[Eternally-Grateful]

RC Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic. If it's Synergistic, then the Perseverance of the Saints is Synergistic. Justification through Faith Alone is Synergistic too then. The only things which are Monergistic are Unconditional Election and Regeneration...

Calvinists; if the Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Causation, then Faith is Synergistic...

Sorry brother. But this literally makes no sense to me.

If I am going to paint a picture of what someone said and make hi fit into some mold.. then I will have failed to see him as he is..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Sanctification, however, includes our efforts. We say it is synergistic because both God and we are doing something." - RC Sproul

No Shortcuts to Growth by R.C. Sproul

I’m still amazed whenever I see the bumper sticker that reads, “Visualize world peace.” The idea is that if I, and enough other people, create the right mental

learn.ligonier.org

Yes. Ongoing sanctification. Or as many theologians call it. CONDITIONAL sanctification (as apposed to positional sanctification) takes both, God is doing the work, but it takes our willingness to go act.

I love the old passage. For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.. We are being sanctified daily.. Sadly we have good days and bad days..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here is the part of you that is not Calvinistic. No offense to you; I just noticed it and thought I would mention it.

But I am finding it difficult to understand how you would say perseverance of the Saints is synergistic?

Because it states a saint must persevere (cooperate) with God to in effect remain saved.

This was one of the points everyone said I greed with, Until I actually thought about it

I do not persevere. God keeps me..

(I think I am starting to understand your post above now.. Sorry, I have been prety sick. Been off work three days and prety much bedridden, but God is good..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Your assuming what we do in response to His saving work in us adds even one thing.

We are not doing anything to save ourselves. That's not why we work at all.

We work because He saved us, passed tense. So the saving is His, as is the glorifying. He is the yeast and the dough. We are only the vessel, and it's a vessel He created and re-created.

We aren't offering anything to our salvation.... All is gratitude and love, because He first loved us.

No one can take us out of His kingdom once we are in, not even ourselves.

He placed us in His Covenant and in Him, so we love Him and we love one another and because we love Him and one another we love His law...

Nothing we do is anything. It's just love, it's not salvific in any form or fashion, it's not a reaction for salvation, it's a reaction TO salvation.

100% God and only God and we should add some more God.

Amen,

But I am not sure this is what he meant

 

[ReverendRV]

Sorry brother. But this literally makes no sense to me.

If I am going to paint a picture of what someone said and make hi fit into some mold.. then I will have failed to see him as he is..

Fair enough...

As you will see further down, even @brightfame52 made sense of it; he would have been the last person I would have thought that would agree with it. My mission is complete...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And isn't sanctification the real change in man from the state of being filthy and morally corrupt to the purity of God's image?

Sanctification if I remember right means set-apart

We are positionally sanctified (set-apart) the moment we are saved, as we are no longer of the world..

We daily are being worked on By God to be conditionally set apart. As we grow and mature in christ.

Sadly. Many will remains babes in christ. And not grow much, even so. God is glorified

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

...we're probably quibbling over our conception of the definition of terms.

I would venture most arguments are based on this fact

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yeah, if you're a "free willy" it's all on you to make sure your theology correlates sufficiently to meet God's criteria for being saved. That too being another reason to boast.

Can you explain please?

I am a free Willy. And I do not think this at all.. Nor COULD I boast in anything but God

 

[Josheb]

why is justification through faith synergistic?

It is not of you
It is not of the flesh

It is of you in synergism. The reason it is of you in synergism is because synergism teaches 1) faith precedes regeneration (which means it is a faith of the flesh, NOT the Spirit) and 2) it's a sinful faith, not a cleaned up (sanctified) regenerate faith. Depending on the synergism subscribed to (because Provisionism is MUCH different than Arminianism) synergism teaches this faith by which we are justified and through which we are saved (no one is saved by faith) is a faith of the sinner's own faculty. If you're not familiar with these distinctions, then let me recommend you read Arminius' Disputation 11 and Leighton Flowers' Provisionism and compare the two because what each teaches about the sinful state is radically different and wholly irreconcilable. Both are synergisms, but they are not the same synergism. Arminius was a subscriber of what we now call Total Depravity. He taught a moment of prevenient grace occurs in the process of salvation during which a sinner, and otherwise incapable incapacitated sinner was divinely rendered able to understand and choose. Provisionism and Traditionalism wholly reject that position and teach the sinner maintains an innate or inherent ability to respond to the gospel in the sinfully dead and enslaved state. Those are two radically different views of humanity and two irreconcilable hamartiologies.

You did not earn your salvation

You did if the faith asserted in your salvation was a faith that was part of your inherent constitution as God made the human creature. This is important because some synergisms deny historical, orthodox teaching about both. they claim faith is "of" or "from" God but also teach faith is an inherent part of what makes humans human, and it was not compromised by sin to the point of inability.

Salvation by grace through faith plus works....

No. Salvation is by grace through faith for works. Re-read Ephesians 2:8-10 and verify what I just posted. Verify it for yourself.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm home now; boy I'm tired!

I'm a 5-Point Calvinist, but probably the most liberal one you'll ever meet. I got Saved in a Reformed Baptist ARBCA Denomination Church.

I wonder if this has any association with the GARBC Baptist church (General association of reformed baptist churches I think it stood for)

I was saved in this church when I was about 10 years old. Miss that old church. The pastor retired and the one they replaced him with was doing a good job. Only satan got ahold of him and he left his wife and 8 kids to take off with one of the deacon’s wife. After that the church had such a bad reputation they left the association and prety much struggled until they hired a pastors from Washington state who had a doctorate from Dallas Theological seminary. I learned so much from him and was so blessed. I went into the military, and something happened and he left. It was never the same.

I would describe it as very Libertarian. Now that I have been focusing on the 2nd LBCF saying the Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Causation, I realize that my concept of them being Libertarian has much to do with understanding our Liberty. When we Confess we're the Secondary Causation of All that comes to pass in our lives, our Sanctification comes about in part through our Secondary Causation. Our Faith and Perseverance are likewise the same...

 

[ReverendRV]

I wonder if this has any association with the GARBC Baptist church (General association of reformed baptist churches I think it stood for)

I was saved in this church when I was about 10 years old. Miss that old church. The pastor retired and the one they replaced him with was doing a good job. Only satan got ahold of him and he left his wife and 8 kids to take off with one of the deacon’s wife. After that the church had such a bad reputation they left the association and prety much struggled until they hired a pastors from Washington state who had a doctorate from Dallas Theological seminary. I learned so much from him and was so blessed. I went into the military, and something happened and he left. It was never the same.

Oh, that's a shame...

We're probably more alike than you think. ARBCA = Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America...


We're Saved by Grace through Faith minus Works of Merit; Born Again to bear Fruit...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

While I do claim (and insist) that our faith subsequent to salvation is indeed of the same source as our salvific faith—the Spirit of God is that source—I think there is still a stark difference, in that while our faith is a RESULT of the Spirit taking up residence within us, we have no force of will nor agreement causal to our salvation that IS through that faith. We find that we do believe, and that the subsequent act of will of submitting our will to the one in whom we believe is indeed a work, even that is only a result, still, of that faith and the specific (not simply a general 'enabling') work of the Spirit in us. The difference could be seen as the fellowship causally resulting from the willed 'opening the door' (a la Rev 3:20) and obedience (John 14:23) vs the regeneration that may not even be understood or conscious to the new believer.

What I think has not often been well-defined in this discussion, and in most theological circles, too, including Bible and Theological Dictionaries, is that Monergism, while usually well-enough defined, Synergism comes with the definition of synergism as mere 'cooperation' of the sinner with the Spirit of God in bringing about salvation, which definition is lacking one strong fault of true synergism, that God's work alone is not enough, but that the sinner must be willing, and in most circles, even accepting or enabling in some way for God to be able to do his work of salvation—not just cooperating, but ADDING to God's work. This is at the crux of Irresistible Grace—I call @Eternally-Grateful a synergist, yet he finds the difference in terminology miniscule between us. Well, the meaning behind the terminology is anything BUT miniscule.

I will happily grant that he is not your usual synergist, but in the end, he thinks salvation must be a result of one's accepting of the Gift of God, and, I'm sorry, but that is synergism, since the salvation must come through the willed act of accepting it.

And here is the cruxt of the issue

One says if I recieved God. That I willed myself to salvation.

One says If I recieved christ. That I saved myself

One says if I recieve Christ, I cooperated with God

One says if I received Christ, That I acted and helped God save me

But what does the Bible say?

John 1: 12 but as many as have received him (like I did) to them (me) he gave the power or right to become children of God. Even to them who believe on his name

But it does not stop here. The Bible also says

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here word for word (Jesus makes it clear truly truly I say to you!!

1. Receive the word
2. Believe the word. And the one who sent him
3. You THEN recieve eternal life (born again)
4. You THEN will not come into judgment (justified)
5. YOU THEN have passed from death to life (Regeneration - new birth happens after faith)

I do not see how it could get any clearer

Now you want to call me a synergistic by some defenition. I guess thats on you.

But when you look at the defenition. You are accusing me of doing somethign I have not done. Reject outright. And literally am offended by.

So again, where does the conversation go

We are right back to where we are when I started the free will thread, and trying to put people in an ISM. And not listening to what they are saying..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Conversion experience" is a pretty broad term. I wonder where is the cutoff point between Salvation and subsequent reactions to being regenerated, or if there even is one, in that term. And why, "conversion"? Is that equating with Salvation? Perhaps I'm criticizing excessively, but the accommodating modern sound of "conversion experience" seems to me to kiss the indecorous rear end of the modern mindset that subordinates scripture to to empiricism, or worse, to subjectivism.

In the final analysis, though, as @Hazelelponi says, ALL the credit goes to God, because even our "cooperation" (another broad term) falls under the description, For it is God who works in you, both to will and to do according to his good purpose.

Amen, we should never rely on how we feel as a means of anything.

 

[makesends]

Theology is not a Box, it's Sequential. A+B=C...

There's something to both, or that both have in common. I refer to it as, "we like to put a handle on things", as in 'organizing our thinking'. That's what Theology does.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let me ask because this is how I see it okay?

But I put all of salvation to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. (God generally). But all the work of salvation and sanctification particularly.

Then me? I forget about it because I'm not here to be saving myself, according to Scripture and good sense, that's what Jesus did so I concentrate on what I should be doing.

I feel the same way (odd as that may sound to you)

And I'm supposed to be doing works to give as an offering to God,(Hebrews 13:16) worthless though my works are, because I love God and have gratitude and thankfulness for what He did for me, in bringing me inti His Kingdom and calling me a loved daughter. (John 3:1-3)

Amen, Like my nic, Eternally-Grateful for the unimaginable and priceless gift he poured out on me.

And I'm supposed to be learning how to be His daughter because I'm the daughter of a King and that means I have familial duties (Galatians 5:13) and ambassador type duties (2 Corinthians 5:20) which I need to get better at learning.

Amen

And then as my responsibility to the Covenant and as a good daughter I also have to be obedient to my Father even if I don't particularly care for it (not perfect) but I can get over it as i'm in a new Kingdom now so I have to be obedient and get better at stuff.

Basically, I have everything I do in the worship of God or perhaps kicking myself category with no real in between.

I don't put what I do into some type of cooperative effort with God in sanctification. I don't know why we would do such a thing since our work is in the worship and adoption category right? Those are the categories I have been putting any working in anyway.

It’s no different really in those who are out in the middle of the ocean with no hope. No means of saving themselves. Desperate and hopeless when God reaches his hand out to them to rescue them, reach up so he can take their hand a rescue (save them) because they trust him.

They did not co-operate either.

Now they could have rejected his help. Denied he was even there. Or refused to trust him and they would have been left in their same state.

He who believe is not condemned,

He who does nto believe is condemned already.

Thank you sis. Your example here I hope has helped shed some light on what I believe..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Oh, that's a shame...

We're probably more alike than you think. ARBCA = Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America...


We're Saved by Grace through Faith minus Works of Merit; Born Again to bear Fruit...

You got it brother.

Abide in the vine,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There's something to both, or that both have in common. I refer to it as, "we like to put a handle on things", as in 'organizing our thinking'. That's what Theology does.

It is good to have this to fall back on

 

[makesends]

I'm seeing myself as getting confused

Asked you because you might know me enough to be able to answer more clearly.

Since works seem to be at the heart I figured I did want some confirmation I am not myself miscategorizing somethings.

Hubby understands people who would say sanctification as synergistic because there's a response from us and God will chase us down until we give up and submit.

But I don't see putting our response in the sanctification category since it's all God..

But DH says he doesn't know about this second cause stuff (he doesn't know the WCF) and thinks he doesn't have to put everything in a little box... soto me things just are, and God will hunt us down if we run until we submit.

But maybe I want to not play so willy nilly and have everything in its right box that way I'm clear.

I'll just drop it. I like the way I have been thinking about it I guess. It seems the best way.

In a way, your arrangements are like those of my 'Calvinistic' thinking before I ran into Calvinism proper. I didn't arrange Salvation and Sanctification into separate doctrines, though I did see Salvation, and Regeneration in particular, as a separate category from Sanctification in the mode of God's Spirit working in man. TULIP helped me firm that up, and see monergism more clearly, in that the Reformed don't consider Sanctification as monergistic. But I hesitate to say that it is Synergistic.

One important use of Doctrine isn't just how it helps one think, but how one can get the facts across to others--particularly to those who are 'on the fence'.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Yeah, if you're a "free willy" it's all on you to make sure your theology correlates sufficiently to meet God's criteria for being saved. That too being another reason to boast.

Can you explain please?

I am a free Willy. And I do not think this at all.. Nor COULD I boast in anything but God

Not much sense in me answering as your concept of salvation via "free will" is inconsistent with the Arminian definition as @Josheb points out in posts 69.

 

[makesends]

I'm big on Theology. Done right; it's as good as the Bible...

Then, it's never done quite right!