Synergism

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is one of the worst examples I have ever seen someone use to prove synergism in sanctification. Jesus is God, and He didn't live a perfect holy life to sanctify Himself. And you say this is a bible example?

Your right

He did it to sanctify us

 

[ReverendRV]

This is one of the worst examples I have ever seen someone use to prove synergism in sanctification. Jesus is God, and He didn't live a perfect holy life to sanctify Himself. And you say this is a bible example?

Synergism in Sanctification is not what I'm trying to prove. I'm trying to prove that Sproul said in Sanctification God and Man both do something, and he meant this is Synergistic...

 

[Carbon]

Synergism in Sanctification is not what I'm trying to prove. I'm trying to prove that Sproul said in Sanctification God and Man both do something, and he meant this as Synergistic...

In which way does this sound like, "Okay, man, now you do your part?"
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36.

 

[brightfame52]

The Unconditionally Elected...

Right He did it for His Seed as the Last Adam, just as the First Adam represented his seed in the beginning in his disobedience to Gods law

 

[brightfame52]

Nvm then.

okay, let me know if you change your mind

 

[Carbon]

In which way does this sound like, "Okay, man, now you do your part?"
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36.

Also, consider this.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13.

 

[Carbon]

okay, let me know if you change your mind

That would be up to you actually. If you decide you want to answer, see post #89. if not, no worries.

 

[ReverendRV]

In which way does this sound like, "Okay, man, now you do your part?"
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36.

It sounds like God Is the Primary Causation, as the WCF Confesses; and it sounds like we as the Secondary Causation will do it...

Let's use the famous Lying Spirit account. God Causes it, but the false prophets do the Lying. This is Man doing his part without God being Culpable; although God Caused it...

 

[brightfame52]

That would be up to you actually. If you decide you want to answer, see post #89. if not, no worries.

See post 92

 

[His clay]

Monergism versus Synergism ~ by ReverendRV * July 15

Ephesians 2:8 NASB; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Monergism is a Work which is said to be of God alone, and Synergism is said to be the cooperation of God and Man in a Work. Synergism is like pulling up to the gas station, looking at the pump and seeing “May contain %10 Ethanol”; two fuels working in an engine to reduce emissions. But engines like Lawn Mowers can’t use this Synergistic fuel, so you pull up to the next pump and see “Ethanol free”; and you fill your gas can. ~ It’s like this when it comes to God’s Covenants; a Covenant of Works is Synergistic but a Covenant of Grace is Monergistic. In the Bible we see the Edenic and Mosaic Covenants are Covenants of Works which require the participation of those who are in these Covenants. Other Covenants such as the Noahic, Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are Covenants of Grace; these are promises made by God that don’t require any participation from those who are in those Covenants. ~ Which Pump do you use?

God is not the Author of Sin. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people that Lie? “Of yourself”, you are now a Liar. Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call people who Steal? You’ve made yourself out to be a Thief. Have you ever used God’s name as a vile cussword? This is Blasphemy and is not of God, but is ‘of’ yourself. These are only three of the Ten Commandments; if God judged you by his Moral Code, would you be innocent or Guilty? “No! My good outweighs my bad.” ~ Are you saying to me that you want to Synergistically mix your good with your bad?? Now your fuel is tainted because your good doesn’t lower the Bad’s emissions! Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Doesn’t this bother you??

You don’t have to go, because there’s a Loophole; but it is not of yourself. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is this Son and he lived a Life of Sinlessness. This means that he kept the requirements of the Mosaic Covenant and this became his Righteousness; it qualified him to be the sacrifice for the Sin of the world. He was Tried by a kangaroo court and sentenced to scourging by Roman Lictors. This would lead him to die quickly on the Cross because of the blood he had already spilled on our behalf. He died, was buried but in three days he arose from the dead, being seen alive by over five hundred people before he ascended to Heaven. We’re Monergistically Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works so that it’s not of ourselves but is the gift of God. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord; and seek an Evangelical Church. ~ Jesus is %100 God and %100 Man. As a man, Jesus Synergistically kept the Mosaic Covenant, and we Monergistically receive what he earned…

Romans 1:17 NIV; For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Since I have been profoundly misunderstood in the past, could you take a shot at a distinction between compatibilism and synergism?

 

[Carbon]

It sounds like God Is the Primary Causation, as the WCF Confesses; and it sounds like we as the Secondary Causation will do it...

Let's use the famous Lying Spirit account. God Causes it, but the false prophets do the Lying. This is Man doing his part without God being Culpable; although God Caused it...

Well, faith works through love and excites men to practice the works which God has prepared and commanded in His word.

 

[Carbon]

See post 92

 

[brightfame52]

Okay.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Also, consider this.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13.

The word translated work out is actually a mining term.

You work out the gens or whatever your mining for. Otherwise it just sits there and us unusable

If we do not go out and do the word God has given is to do. We will be useless.

For it is by Grace we have been saved through faith not of works.lest anyone should boast.

For WE (those saved) are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works.

We will get rewarded for these works of bearing fruit. As gold silver and precious stones.

But sadly on that day. Some people will have left only wood hay and stubble with will be ash..

But still be saved even as through fire.

God will not force us to do things..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It sounds like God Is the Primary Causation, as the WCF Confesses; and it sounds like we as the Secondary Causation will do it...

Let's use the famous Lying Spirit account. God Causes it, but the false prophets do the Lying. This is Man doing his part without God being Culpable; although God Caused it...

If God caused it, He should be culpable

I do not understand this thinking.

If would be like me causing my son to kill his sister.

While my son is culpable. So would I be.. I am as guilty as my son who commited the act

 

[ReverendRV]

Since I have been profoundly misunderstood in the past, could you take a shot at a distinction between compatibilism and synergism?

Synergism is God and Man cooperating in an Act as partners. I think Sproul doesn't mean this when he says God and Man are both doing something in Sanctification. Sproul doesn't mean it as a partnership, but simply as both Acting. Compatibalism has to involve their distinct Meanings for an Act...

It's like the Hypostatic Union. Though it is inseparable; somehow it's Unmixed. The Both/And seem to be true at the same time. Compatibalism is the Unmixed, Inseparable Will of God and Man...

 

[ReverendRV]

If God caused it, He should be culpable

I do nto understand this thinking.

If would be like me causing my sin to kill his sister.

While my son is culpable. So would I be.. I am as guilty as my son who commited the act

I knew someone would raise this point. Carbon pointed out that God would Cause us to walk in his Statutes; is God Culpable for this? Most likely you will say No; but what if God Caused us to walk in his Statutes; against our Will? Since we're initially at Enmity with God, the LORD has to Cause us to want to switch sides. I'm not trying to change the Subject, but am pointing out God Causes everything. Again, using the Lying Spirit account, God Caused the False prophets to Lie. But God Causes a thing for Good reasons; this is why God isn't Culpable. If God Caused you to kill your sister, he Meant it for Good; even if he only Meant it for the purpose of Punishing a Sinner in the Here and Now...

 

[Carbon]

The word translated work out is actually a mining term.

You work out the gens or whatever your mining for. Otherwise it just sits there and us unusable

If we do not go out and do the word God has given is to do. We will be useless.

For it is by Grace we have been saved through faith not of works.lest anyone should boast.

For WE (those saved) are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works.

We will get rewarded for these works of bearing fruit. As gold silver and precious stones.

But sadly on that day. Some people will have left only wood hay and stubble with will be ash..

But still be saved even as through fire.

God will not force us to do things..

It seems obvious you’re a synergist.

 

[His clay]

I knew someone would raise this point. . . . .

I already answered this point in multiple ways back in a different thread. Post 676 & 677 answered the issue. I pointed toward a past opening post that I gave the link for, and the linked post was all about the causal conflation fallacy, which is exactly where the other poster is failing to address.

I'll quote the first post, and the first can easily link to the second, and the second post provides the link to the causal conflation fallacy.

I'm just going to move slowly through your response here. Your words will be quoted in blue font. I'll aim at key ideas.

An Important Distinction
"I may have misunderstood you. When I hear the words causation in context in here. I think of the thinking God caused everything we do."
In relation to your last post, where you wrote of "cause man to act in any way that is against God?" (post 628), a very helpful distinction exists between God's prescriptive and descriptive will. The distinction is very helpful because it allows us to explain what is actually going on in different passages. For example, we have the passage in Acts 4 where persecuted Christians are praying. Part of their prayer points to God's sovereignty in relation to the crucifixion. Many people acted in the crucifixion. And the text states, "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:28) The passages makes it abundantly clear that their actions against the Messiah were predestined to take place by God hand and plan. So here comes the exceedingly important distinction. There is a massive difference between what God predestines to take place and what God has said people ought to do. One deals with existence, and the other deals with the commands people are responsible for.

A Critical Point about Initial Causation
Certainly, Calvinists are well knows for their view of God's all-encompassing decree. In many ways, the decree is the blueprint (like an engineer's or architect's blueprint) that is behind creation and history. However, less well known is the fact that any Christian, who is not infected with Open Theism, has much the same problem as the Calvinist. I write of the problem of causation in relation to evil. I'll state this clearly. If you hold to the biblical reality that God knows all things in a self-sufficient way, then you also hold to the fact that God created the universe knowing perfectly well what His actions would entail. God knew perfectly well what would happen, and He made things that way anyway. The only difference between the Arminian and the Calvinist on this point is the type of causation post-creation. I raise this point because it directly addresses your point about God causing everything we do. Apart from God getting the ball rolling, there would be no people, no wills, no freedom, no existence. So at this bare minimum, God is always back of everything that people do.

I would only point out the verses completely obliterating the idea of human autonomy (see post #627). Biblically, we have to bow the knee to scripture. Therefore, I don't see appeals to human autonomy as relevant in this discussion precisely because God disallowed it.

Addressing Labels and an Unknown Position
"ok. I went to the link. I would disagree with both causations.. I think I have explained this a few times. But I am not libertarian, or compatibilistic." Ok. Thank you for taking the time to read it. However, this does not help me know why you disagree or what your position is. So my ability to address this point is left hanging to a great degree. However, I can at least address one point. Just because there is a label attached to certain positions does not immediately make them wrong. One has to go into each and argue the points that make them up in order to demonstrate their error. The casual dismissal fallacy is to simply scoff at them or label them as wrong. What I'm saying is that your evaluation needs to be deeper that merely disagreeing with a label. I'm sure we agree on that; otherwise, we would be endorsing judging a book by its cover, which is very superficial.

Adam and Causation
"was Adam the ultimate cause?" No scripture anywhere ever says or communicates that Adam was an ultimate cause. The best I've seen is people using inferences and arguments from silence. In light of no explicitly scriptural declaration of Adam being an ultimate cause, and in light of Scripture stating the exact opposite (remember the verses I presented discrediting human autonomy (post #627)), I am forced by God's own revelation to view the idea of Adam being an ultimate cause as an error.

(post 1 of 2)

 

[His clay]

(post 2 of 2) for @Eternally-Grateful See post directly above this one for part 1.

Causal Distinctions in Relation to God and Man
"was God the ultimate cause?" Critical to answering this question is my prior post which cautions against the causal conflation fallacy. This fallacy is when the word "cause" is reduced down to only one level. Only one type of causation is considered, when in fact scripture demonstrates a multiplicity of types. Further, massive distinctions exist, as stated in the same link provided, that points to various nuances regarding causation. God is the ultimate cause of all that exists; this is a point from God being the Creator. No history would ever take place apart from God getting the ball rolling. However, I repeat that causation does not boil down to one level. Since I do not hold to libertarian freedom, human autonomy, and ultimate human causation, then I make exceedingly important causal distinctions.

God may be the ultimate cause, but this does not mean that human beings are not responsible. God may be the ultimate cause, but this does not mean that God's holiness is hurt in any way. Let's revisit the Acts 4 and the crucifixion. God willed righteously, what man did wickedly. The passage makes this clear. God had perfect motives as He was bringing about the redemption of His people by the sacrifice of His Son. However, this happened through the sinful actions of people.

Humans are always the immediate cause of sin; God is never the immediate cause of sin (immediate and remote distinction). And there is no moral law that states that God is evil because He has ordained all that comes to pass. This moral law is the invention of those who oppose Calvinism. It is a philosophical non-biblical standard elevated into the place that the true God only has. This means that raising the standard above god is to only critique a straw man deity, since the scriptural understanding of God entails God's ultimacy. Further, Job was criticised as being unable to stand as God's judge. The roles will absolutely never be reversed. The creature will never be able to stand over the Creator, and thusly the creature needs to act and think in a way that does not endorse a sinful disconnect with reality.

Further, as the compatibilist position points out, certainly types of causation can be given that remove responsibility. (Example: Absalom and Tamar) However, not all types of causation remove responsibility, and this is why such a detailed account is given of the internal workings and motivations of people.

A Caution against Overreading
"I do not think Adam was the ultimate cause, and I do not think it was his highest purpose or his ultimate desire to break Gods command. I think there was a third reason." A lot of the discussion of Adam and Eve simply suffers from speculation built upon the ediface of an argument from silence. It is important to note the difference between what scripture explicitly says and what people often insert into it. Hence, I would just caution you against reading too much into Genesis 1-3. This is not an accusation; it is only a warning. 1 Timothy 2:14 does state, "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Hence, we do know that Adam knew perfectly well what he was doing in relation to God's command not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Human Accountability in Relation to God's Causation
"I also am of the view. if God caused it. then God should be held accountable." I disagree. God is never morally culpable for human sin. The Bible proclaims God's holiness loud and clear (Isaiah 6). The Bible also makes it clear that human autonomy is not an answer. To borrow an analoy from bumper bowling: we need to bowl down the lane of our reasoning about human accountability with two clear bumpers in mind (God's holiness and the repudiation of human autonomy). I will again present the link that directly addresses this matter. https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/responsibility-and-causation.55/

Human beings are responsible for their sin; God will hold them to account. God is never morally culpable for human sin.

Yes, we can learn from a parent/child relationship. And part of growing up is how we take responsibility for our own actions; we cannot just blameshift to our parents. Certainly, parents have a pivotal and highly impactful role in shaping the thinking of the child. But this does not remove the responsibility of the child. There is a great deal that I have had to reject from my parents; it's part of growing up.

While I agree that we can learn some things about causation and responsibility from a parent/child scenario, significant discontinuity exists between that human-to-human relationship and the God-to-man relationship. God's relationship to His creation has a huge ontological difference. And God's relationship to His creation is such that He never sins, unlike human parents who do sin.

@ReverendRV
I've also quoted the second post, since it directly addresses the issue, and provided the causal conflation fallacy link.