Second Attempt at Romans 9

[FutureAndAHope]

I have been giving some thought to Romans 9, here is my explanation verse for verse.

Rom 9:1-8 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Paul starts out by stating that just because you are a Jew according to the flesh does not mean you are a child of God. As Isaac was the child of promise not, Hagar's son, being a child of Abraham does not make you a part of the promise.


Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."


Paul then goes on to explain the story of Jacob and Esau, again reinforcing that just because you are a child of Abraham, does not make you a child of promise.


Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac



When you look at how the Early Church (Barabus Epistle – Part 2 Chap. XII, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121 Chap. CXX., Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.) - Book IV. (Cont.) Chap. XXI.) saw this story, they saw it as representing the “older” Jewish nation, would give up its birthright to the Gentiles “younger”. This was seen as a prophetic picture of the church. That the Gentiles would inherit what was rightfully the Jews. God had used this prophetic picture throughout the lineage of Abraham, Ephraim's, and Manasseh being one example, “the older serving the younger”.


Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."


Yet the prophecy in the story of Jacob and Esau goes another step further.


Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),



The prophetic picture given by their choosing before birth, shows that God would give people salvation not based upon their deeds, but based upon grace, or His call.


Rom 9:12-13 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."



Again the picture given here is one of the Gentiles, inheriting the promise, when it should have belonged to the Jews.



Rom 9:14-15 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!



Paul is saying is there “unrighteousness”, “unfairness”, in God’s choosing. To which he says “no”. God can have mercy on whom ever He wills, Jew or Gentile.



Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."



So it is not of works, or birthright, but of God who shows mercy.



Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.



Rom 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.



So God, hardens some, and gives grace to others. We see this throughout scripture, that God gives grace to those who receive His word, and hardens those who reject it (John 14:22-24, John 1:12, Romans 1:18-21, 2 Th 2:10-12). Yet the sinner may complain, stating “I was not given sight”, “so how can I be held guilty for those sins”.



Rom 9:19-21 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?



The next verse reinforces the idea that God “first” gives long suffering, to the vessels of wrath, before using them for a negative purpose. It suggests as Romans 1:18-21 does, that the wrath of God is revealed against those who suppress the truth.



Rom 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



We are returning to the topic of the Jews and Gentiles.



Rom 9:25-29 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED." "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED. FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH." And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."



Then we see the conclusion, it is not of him who wills, but God who shows mercy:



Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

 

[atpollard]

... or it just means what it says: God is in charge and gets to do what HE thinks is right (we don't get a vote).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

... or it just means what it says: God is in charge and gets to do what HE thinks is right (we don't get a vote).

These scriptures also mean what they, say, I am just interpreting Romans 9 so that the following are preserved:

God's desire to give all men a chance at life

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God's desire to save the sinner

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'


God gives one of two pathways to people

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Lev 26:21-24 'Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate. 'And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

 

[atpollard]

These scriptures also mean what they, say, I am just interpreting Romans 9 so that the following are preserved:

What hermeneutic do you use to know which verses need to be twisted to mean the opposite of what they say?
[That was always my problem with playing "scripture pong".]

For example, how do you know to redefine Romans to agree with 1 Timothy rather than redefine 1 Timothy to agree with Romans?
(since you claim they are incompatible and Romans 9 requires reinterpretation).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What hermeneutic do you use to know which verses need to be twisted to mean the opposite of what they say?
[That was always my problem with playing "scripture pong".]

For example, how do you know to redefine Romans to agree with 1 Timothy rather than redefine 1 Timothy to agree with Romans?
(since you claim they are incompatible and Romans 9 requires reinterpretation).

God has given us a moral mind. My doctrine is moral. Calvinism is immoral and goes against clear logic.

It makes much more sense to say God desires all men's salvation, but they are often unwilling than to say, He desires, "just for the heck of it", to destroy some to show wrath. God says He is love. Love fits my doctrine, but is not remotely connected to Calvinism.

Does not it make more sense that a God who desires men's salvation would act in a way that reflects that truth?

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Not only do I have the logical, moral argument. The Early Church also supports the idea that a fatalistic, unbending God, is not the true God.

Justin Martyr (110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

In short, what sort of God do you believe in? An immoral, hateful God, or one who actually as Jesus said "so loved the world", that He gave His son.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What hermeneutic do you use to know which verses need to be twisted to mean the opposite of what they say?

In Romans 9 there is a historical context to consider. The Early Church saw the story of Jacob and Esau, as a prophetic picture of how the Gentiles would take the birthright from the Jews. Paul in the passage started with "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham", there is a clear connection there to the idea that the Jews by birth are not the children of God, but those of the promise. If Paul was indeed using the story in a prophetic sense, as the Early Church saw it, verses like:

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Also should be interpreted in the prophetic sense, not seen as talking about two individuals' salvation, but rather their "story" contains prophecy pointing to salvation by grace not works. That God set up their story as a picture to depict how salvation would occur. It is not a matter of twisting scripture, it is a matter of understanding how it would be perceived in the Early Church setting.


Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)

3. If any one, again, will look into Jacob’s actions, he shall find them not destitute of meaning, but full of import with regard to the dispensations. Thus, in the first place, at his birth, since he laid hold on his brother’s heel, (Gen_25:26) he was called Jacob, that is, the supplanter — one who holds, but is not held; binding the feet, but not being bound; striving and conquering; grasping in his hand his adversary’s heel, that is, victory. For to this end was the Lord born, the type of whose birth he set forth beforehand, of whom also John says in the Apocalypse: “He went forth conquering, that He should conquer.” (Rev_6:2) In the next place, [Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” (Joh_19:15) But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121
Chap. CXX. — Christians Were Promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.

“Observe, too, how the same promises are made to Isaac and to Jacob. For thus He speaks to Isaac: ‘And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_26:4) And to Jacob: ‘And in thee and in thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_28:14) He says that neither to Esau nor to Reuben, nor to any other; only to those of whom the Christ should arise, according to the dispensation, through the Virgin Mary. But if you would consider the blessing of Judah, you would perceive what I say. For the seed is divided from Jacob, and comes down through Judah, and Phares, and Jesse, and David. And this was a symbol of the fact that some of your nation would be found children of Abraham, and found, too, in the lot of Christ; but that others, who are indeed children of Abraham, would be like the sand on the sea-shore, barren and fruitless, much in quantity, and without number indeed, but bearing no fruit whatever, and only drinking the water of the sea. And a vast multitude in your nation are convicted of being of this kind, imbibing doctrines of bitterness and godlessness, but spurning the word of God.

Barabus Epistle – Part 2
Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)

 

[atpollard]

God has given us a moral mind. My doctrine is moral. Calvinism is immoral and goes against clear logic.

So we will bend the word of God according to the Human Standards of Morality as determined by the mind of Fallen man ... what could possibly go wrong with THAT plan?

‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ - Ezekiel 18

 

[Mr GLee]

When you look at how the Early Church (Barabus Epistle – Part 2 Chap. XII, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121 Chap. CXX., Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.) - Book IV. (Cont.) Chap. XXI.) saw this story, they saw it as representing the “older” Jewish nation, would give up its birthright to the Gentiles “younger”. This was seen as a prophetic picture of the church. That the Gentiles would inherit what was rightfully the Jews. God had used this prophetic picture throughout the lineage of Abraham, Ephraim's, and Manasseh being one example, “the older serving the younger”

God is not a man he is the faithfull "let there be".....creator of men .Can't create two Gods.the second would have a beginning.

Eternal God has none.

If you look at earlier (earliest) Abel was murdered, the first apostle martyr .His blood like the blood of all born again from above cries out in a promised hope of a new body that will not age and die.

God had promised to rename his bride in Isaiah 62 previously calling her Israel. Not all Israel is considered born again Israel some represent a outward Jew according to the dying flesh of mankind.

The use of the word Israel as a city came to a end at the time of the first century reformation in acts when the father renamed the bride .

Shadows using Jewish flesh became substance (it is finished) God throughout the bible uses cities in respect to the resident living there (denomyn )

Christian literally meaning "residents of the city of Christ" prepared for His wife the church a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations of the whole world

God is not served by the hands of dying flesh from any nation .He can move a unbeliever to perform His will.he can cause a shdow to go backward or Gideon fleece to remain dry while the stone is wet , he controls corruption rust. .

To worship or venerate Jewish flesh is the abomination of desolation . Even Jesus the Son of man resisted blaspheming the Holy name of our Father. The one unseen God our infallible teaching master as Lord of lords (mankind).

Mark 10:17-18King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Again God is not a Jewish man .He is God.

 

[makesends]

These scriptures also mean what they, say, I am just interpreting Romans 9 so that the following are preserved:

God's desire to give all men a chance at life

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

God's desire to save the sinner

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'


God gives one of two pathways to people

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Lev 26:21-24 'Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number; and your highways shall be desolate. 'And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

God gives people a chance? I expect you mean, "opportunity". There is no such thing as chance. The term is what we use to excuse ourselves from our ignorance.

But yes, we do choose, as is self-evident. The fact we think all options are actual, does not mean that they are. Again, as history shows, we only ever choose whatever we choose and nothing else. The fact that is so self-evident makes it sound foolish to say, but there it is, in our face, yet we delight in and insist on the notion that we "could have" chosen differently.

Why must we insist on self-determinism?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Why must we insist on self-determinism?

The Calvanistic God's personality

• Desires the death of certain people, for no given reason, other than, for the purpose of displaying wrath
• Only shows kindness to a group of people He made, his kindness is not based on any reciprocal feeling

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

The Real God

• Is love
• Has a desire to save all people, does not desire they perish, but people often rebel
• Responds with saving grace for those who receive His mercy, and ways

Why do I insist on self-determination? Calvanism's God is offensive to the real nature of God. I have seen people often upset, to the point of weeping (in a saddened sense), when they consider the nature of the Calvinistic God. Calvinism turns people away from the gospel.

 

[Mr GLee]

• Desires the death of certain people, for no given reason, other than, for the purpose of displaying wrath
• Only shows kindness to a group of people He made, his kindness is not based on any reciprocal feeling

It's appointed by God not Calvin for all men to die once. (no choice of their own)

His kindness is based on his kindness as to what kind of mercy. (two kinds)

The kind of mercy yoked with us making our suffering in these bodies of death (good as dead) lighter it has end when a person takes their last breath. If they have been given a new spirit that will raise on the last day.

Otherwise, the temporal life given under the letter of the law (death) will finish what was prophesied deader than a doornail. The temporal spirit retuning to the father of all spirit life and dust returns to dust.

Its merciless mankind that demands a continual vengeance in Limbo or purgatory. God abides by his own law no mercy will be shown to those who say God has no mercy on some.

Mercy must be mixed with grace. Some get both.

 

[EarlyActs]

I have been giving some thought to Romans 9, here is my explanation verse for verse.

Rom 9:1-8 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Paul starts out by stating that just because you are a Jew according to the flesh does not mean you are a child of God. As Isaac was the child of promise not, Hagar's son, being a child of Abraham does not make you a part of the promise.


Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."


Paul then goes on to explain the story of Jacob and Esau, again reinforcing that just because you are a child of Abraham, does not make you a child of promise.


Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac



When you look at how the Early Church (Barabus Epistle – Part 2 Chap. XII, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121 Chap. CXX., Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.) - Book IV. (Cont.) Chap. XXI.) saw this story, they saw it as representing the “older” Jewish nation, would give up its birthright to the Gentiles “younger”. This was seen as a prophetic picture of the church. That the Gentiles would inherit what was rightfully the Jews. God had used this prophetic picture throughout the lineage of Abraham, Ephraim's, and Manasseh being one example, “the older serving the younger”.


Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."


Yet the prophecy in the story of Jacob and Esau goes another step further.


Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),



The prophetic picture given by their choosing before birth, shows that God would give people salvation not based upon their deeds, but based upon grace, or His call.


Rom 9:12-13 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."



Again the picture given here is one of the Gentiles, inheriting the promise, when it should have belonged to the Jews.



Rom 9:14-15 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!



Paul is saying is there “unrighteousness”, “unfairness”, in God’s choosing. To which he says “no”. God can have mercy on whom ever He wills, Jew or Gentile.



Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."



So it is not of works, or birthright, but of God who shows mercy.



Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.



Rom 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.



So God, hardens some, and gives grace to others. We see this throughout scripture, that God gives grace to those who receive His word, and hardens those who reject it (John 14:22-24, John 1:12, Romans 1:18-21, 2 Th 2:10-12). Yet the sinner may complain, stating “I was not given sight”, “so how can I be held guilty for those sins”.



Rom 9:19-21 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?



The next verse reinforces the idea that God “first” gives long suffering, to the vessels of wrath, before using them for a negative purpose. It suggests as Romans 1:18-21 does, that the wrath of God is revealed against those who suppress the truth.



Rom 9:22-24 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



We are returning to the topic of the Jews and Gentiles.



Rom 9:25-29 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED." "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED. FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE THE LORD WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK UPON THE EARTH." And as Isaiah said before: "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE LIKE GOMORRAH."



Then we see the conclusion, it is not of him who wills, but God who shows mercy:



Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

I don't know that the end of the chapter got recognized. The problem of "as if it were by works." Is that what "will" means to you? It does after all take some will to attach to Christ as our righteousness, the righteousness of faith.

 

[makesends]

The Calvanistic God's personality

• Desires the death of certain people, for no given reason, other than, for the purpose of displaying wrath
• Only shows kindness to a group of people He made, his kindness is not based on any reciprocal feeling

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

The Real God

• Is love
• Has a desire to save all people, does not desire they perish, but people often rebel
• Responds with saving grace for those who receive His mercy, and ways

Why do I insist on self-determination? Calvanism's God is offensive to the real nature of God. I have seen people often upset, to the point of weeping (in a saddened sense), when they consider the nature of the Calvinistic God. Calvinism turns people away from the gospel.

Then you have a distorted view of God himself, quite apart from Calvinism, or you would not have this misrepresentation in your mind of what Calvinism teaches concerning God.

 

[Mr GLee]

I don't know that the end of the chapter got recognized. The problem of "as if it were by works." Is that what "will" means to you? It does after all take some will to attach to Christ as our righteousness, the righteousness of faith.

The key is both.. .to work to reveal and of the same power to work doing it to the good pleasures of Him who has power to raise the dead.

 

[makesends]

The key is both.. .to work to reveal and of the same power to work doing it to the good pleasures of Him who has power to raise the dead.

But, (and here I see again my complaint —that monergism extends past just regeneration and salvation), the effort of the believer does not add to God's work. It IS God working in us. This fact is relevant to EVERYTHING concerning the believer's walk, duty, purpose, etc. I just finished barely answering @Carbon 's (?) thread about the function and purpose(?) of The Church, and stopped, to avoid distracting the thread from his meaning. (Well, ok, yes, to avoid my words beginning to turn on themselves, too.) The Church is the work of God. And "already, but not yet", she is perfect in every regard.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't know that the end of the chapter got recognized. The problem of "as if it were by works." Is that what "will" means to you? It does after all take some will to attach to Christ as our righteousness, the righteousness of faith.

Not sure what you are asking here. Could you please explain in more detail?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Then you have a distorted view of God himself, quite apart from Calvinism, or you would not have this misrepresentation in your mind of what Calvinism teaches concerning God.

How is what I said a misrepresentation?

If you predestine people to damnation, "just because you choose to", you have no desire to save them. Contrary to:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

You desire to pour wrath on them, for no reason may I add.

 

[Mr GLee]

But, (and here I see again my complaint —that monergism extends past just regeneration and salvation), the effort of the believer does not add to God's work. It IS God working in us. This fact is relevant to EVERYTHING concerning the believer's walk, duty, purpose, etc. I just finished barely answering @Carbon 's (?) thread about the function and purpose(?) of The Church, and stopped, to avoid distracting the thread from his meaning. (Well, ok, yes, to avoid my words beginning to turn on themselves, too.) The Church is the work of God. And "already, but not yet", she is perfect in every regard.

Thanks for that work

One of my troublesome back burner queries is defining the words life and death. Some say we really never die other we are as good as dead

We know it's the power of God, but the question always arises. How did the spirit of lies hook Eve in. was it not the word of God she quoted? Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

It would seem Eve was not protected by Adam. she was deceived and as a false apostle false prophet she added "neither shall ye touch it" violating the warning not to add or subtract form sola scriptura.

When she touched it and did not die as she ate, he followed and ate also. You could say using the wife as a scapegoat. Jesus became the true scapegoat. Adam knew God did not say neither shall you touch it . . The touch of death

The serpent confirmed it. You will not die look at my beauty and live forever in purgatory.

Genisis 3:2-4 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree, which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said (prophesied falsely ) unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Death and its understanding. Jesus wept because of their misunderstanding . . . shortest verse. made him one of the loneliest misunderstood men that ever walked on water. Not as I will but you the one with power .

 

[Mr GLee]

If you predestine people to damnation, "just because you choose to", you have no desire to save them. Contrary to:

They are the ones that violated the letter of God law God's instrument of death . . . . . .Doing the law of the creature they sentenced themself by not obeying.

It was not God that gave them a desire to disobey.

Two kinds of mercy seasoned with grace and mercy an end to the suffering of living in a temporal body of death . . .believers given a desire from God can choose life.

 

[makesends]

Thanks for that work

One of my troublesome back burner queries is defining the words life and death. Some say we really never die other we are as good as dead

We know it's the power of God, but the question always arises. How did the spirit of lies hook Eve in. was it not the word of God she quoted? Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

It would seem Eve was not protected by Adam. she was deceived and as a false apostle false prophet she added "neither shall ye touch it" violating the warning not to add or subtract form sola scriptura.

When she touched it and did not die as she ate, he followed and ate also. You could say using the wife as a scapegoat. Jesus became the true scapegoat. Adam knew God did not say neither shall you touch it . . The touch of death

The serpent confirmed it. You will not die look at my beauty and live forever in purgatory.

Genisis 3:2-4 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree, which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said (prophesied falsely ) unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Death and its understanding. Jesus wept because of their misunderstanding . . . shortest verse. made him one of the loneliest misunderstood men that ever walked on water. Not as I will but you the one with power .

Thanks for answering with this.

One thing I have increasingly noticed lately, is the tendency of humans to think of their arrangements in their minds of facts as they see them, as of more substance than is due. Even secular scientists, for the most part, I think, have the grace to say, "This is only a model to help us understand what may be the way of things." But those of us that are RIGHT about God and Life and the Bible— (I say that facetiously) —think that our words really mean something important, when really, CS Lewis' phrase, "...the babble we think we mean..." (from Till We Have Faces) very well fits us. We can't even describe our own (temporal) reality adequately. What makes us think we can describe God's solid infinite reality? A tendency not to take ourselves too seriously is of value here.

So, yes, I agree. Life and death are WAY beyond us to understand, and like them, existence itself, all three being "invented" by God. We throw our words at the concepts, and they do the concepts no good; in the end, we have to continue to resort to Scripture, and work on unravelling the riddles that our minds make from God's plain truth. We can know for a fact, that existence and life and death are from God, and that what they are, and how they apply to us, is all in his hands. But it sure is fun to speculate, and often full of blessing —for me, specially when I find that since God made all this for HIS sake, there has to be depth in there far beyond this temporal use.

God is amazing.