Second Attempt at Romans 9

[FutureAndAHope]

They are the ones that violated the letter of God law God's instrument of death . . . . . .Doing the law of the creature they sentenced themself by not obeying.

It was not God that gave them a desire to disobey.

Two kinds of mercy seasoned with grace and mercy an end to the suffering of living in a temporal body of death . . .believers given a desire from God can choose life.

If God predestined them to "death", how is that not God willing their death? It has nothing to do with man if Calvinism is true.

 

[makesends]

How is what I said a misrepresentation?

If you predestine people to damnation, "just because you choose to", you have no desire to save them. Contrary to:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

You desire to pour wrath on them, for no reason may I add.

Calvinism does not say "just because he chose to" damn them. The reasons are plainly given us, and you choose to ignore them. Let me try again. God's main end for creation is the Body of Christ, who is the Bride of Christ, the Children of God, the Dwelling Place of God, and other names for the same people. Those are the only ones he chose to save. Logically, those are the only ones he intended to save. And, since he is God, those are the ones he WILL save —every single one of them. There are no substitutes, no maybe's.

But not only will he save them, but he will work on them, "carving" you might say, or in the picture of the Potter and his clay, shaping them. Not only will he work on them, to include transforming them from death to life, and changing their habits, and knowledge and wisdom, and dependence on him for their strength, and becoming like him, but after the body has stopped, they "will be changed", and made "higher" than even the angels of Heaven.

For this he uses means, to include everything from a nasty smell to catastrophe to sweetness and beauty to pain and frustration to seeing his attributes displayed in everything that happens. This includes interactions with each other and with the reprobate, and all the intricacies of cause and effect, in which they, too, are involved. He lets us see some of his goodness, and his justice —even his goodness and his justice toward the reprobate. He shows us his power and his purity. His hatred for sin. His untamed will and its acts of mercy. His faithfulness and his eternal love for those to whom he chose to be merciful. And one very powerful way he does this is by the creation and condemnation of the reprobate. THIS is his way to accomplish his purposes, and therefore, it is necessary.

 

[Mr GLee]

If God predestined them to "death", how is that not God willing their death? It has nothing to do with man if Calvinism is true.

God did not predistine them to death they died when they refuses to get under the authority of God.Their choice not of God

 

[EarlyActs]

Not sure what you are asking here. Could you please explain in more detail?

Does the identified problem Israel was having count as "freewill", as "monergism"?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Does the identified problem Israel was having count as "freewill", as "monergism"?

I am still clueless. Could you please quote the scripture you are referring to, and what you are suggesting it means?

 

[EarlyActs]

Not sure what you are asking here. Could you please explain in more detail?

The chapter was 9. A lot of attention was put on the will of Israel vs the will (or actions) of God. At the end of the chapter there is the identified dilemma of Israel that it was establishing its own righteousness instead of accepting God's. By establishing its own, it was acting in a fantasy world of "as if" it were by its works.

So my question for you is 'Is this identified dilemma a case of Israel's will--does it qualify as being their will starting (or trying to start) salvation?'

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The chapter was 9. A lot of attention was put on the will of Israel vs the will (or actions) of God. At the end of the chapter there is the identified dilemma of Israel that it was establishing its own righteousness instead of accepting God's. By establishing its own, it was acting in a fantasy world of "as if" it were by its works.

So my question for you is 'Is this identified dilemma a case of Israel's will--does it qualify as being their will starting (or trying to start) salvation?'

I don't believe so. It comes down to the motivation of the heart. A person can follow a set of commands, yet still excuse their sins. As the Pharisees were condemned for doing:

Mat 23:3-4 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

The person who genuinely seeks to do God's will will have enlightenment.

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

There is nothing wrong with a person working towards God's commands, as long as they are genuinely seeking God's will. They will eventually come to the cross and the rest it offers.

 

[EarlyActs]

I am thinking that the predestined to evil is actually an allowance that He knew that people would have free will and there would be consequences. So what it really means is that He predetermined there would be a punishment mechanism in place; it is not that he picked certain people to fail.

There is a matching positive form to this: John 8's: the will of the Father is that everyone who trusts in Him will be saved. It is not picking certain people, but it is picking a mechanism, positive this time.

 

[Reformedguy]

If God predestined them to "death", how is that not God willing their death? It has nothing to do with man if Calvinism is true.

Did God not create the world knowing the destiny of each and every individual who would ever live? Purposely?

 

[Mr GLee]

Did God not create the world knowing the destiny of each and every individual who would ever live? Purposely?

I would think of course it has nothing to do with dying mankind under a curse of the letter of the law DEATH. The appointment all make on time. But does in respect to books (two)

Remember Job 23 informs us God is of one mind and always does whatever his soul desire no man can turn the Potter he makes our hard hearts soft with the water of his word (the gospel)

The names of the elect were written down from the foundation of the world .The six days the Holy Father did work out our salvation .The pouring out of His Holy Spirit on dying flesh.

Two books. #1The book of life, every person he intended to create ,and #2 the lambs book of new born again spirit life .

When compared. . whosoever name is not written in the lamb's book #2 will be erased from the #1book of life . Both books witness the new creation.

The promised gospel prophecy in Genesis 3 and Isaiah 53. . . "demonstrated" to the whole word 2000 years ago. We can look back to the demonstrated prophecy , just as old testament saints looked to the fulfilment

Daniel 7: 9-10 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand ( a unknown number) stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

It's the end of the world the last days the day of Christ .

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

One like the Son of man, Jesus a temopal form. . came with the clouds of heaven the unseen Holy presence of God . Two working as one.(unseen eternal) witness

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 13:7-9King James Version7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

In that we can keep the integrity the Bible. It is referred as the one book of law. (not a book of the philosophies of the world ). Many chapters that many call books (66) Chapters inspired. Books philosophies of men not inspired from above .

Chapter. . .Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I would think a distinction must be made Satan would call it books and not chapters to confuse the doctrine the two boks working as one witness of the Faithful Creator

 

[jeremiah1five]

I have been giving some thought to Romans 9, here is my explanation verse for verse.

Rom 9:1-8 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Paul starts out by stating that just because you are a Jew according to the flesh does not mean you are a child of God. As Isaac was the child of promise not, Hagar's son, being a child of Abraham does not make you a part of the promise.


Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."


Paul then goes on to explain the story of Jacob and Esau, again reinforcing that just because you are a child of Abraham, does not make you a child of promise.


Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac



When you look at how the Early Church (Barabus Epistle – Part 2 Chap. XII, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121 Chap. CXX., Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.) - Book IV. (Cont.) Chap. XXI.) saw this story, they saw it as representing the “older” Jewish nation, would give up its birthright to the Gentiles “younger”. This was seen as a prophetic picture of the church. That the Gentiles would inherit what was rightfully the Jews. God had used this prophetic picture throughout the lineage of Abraham, Ephraim's, and Manasseh being one example, “the older serving the younger”.


Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."


Yet the prophecy in the story of Jacob and Esau goes another step further.


Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),



The prophetic picture given by their choosing before birth, shows that God would give people salvation not based upon their deeds, but based upon grace, or His call.

Again the picture given here is one of the Gentiles, inheriting the promise, when it should have belonged to the Jews.

Paul is saying is there “unrighteousness”, “unfairness”, in God’s choosing. To which he says “no”. God can have mercy on whom ever He wills, Jew or Gentile.

So it is not of works, or birthright, but of God who shows mercy.

Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

You shouldn't be selective. You ignore the main thought in that verse. According to Pharisaic Halakah Saul is reasoning within himself and will come to a conclusion at the end in chapter 11. That's the way rabbis 'argued' a point. You completely misunderstand what Saul said. So, let's try that again:

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Above is a personal reflection of his expectations and desire.

4 Who are Israelites;

He declares THEY ARE ISRAEL, an Israel your understanding concludes to say they are not. There's more. Take note as he builds that THEY ARE ISRAEL:

4 to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

In short Saul is saying, "Salvation is OF THE JEWS." God has never given Gentiles these foundational parts of the building called, "Salvation is OF THE JEWS," for God has made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. Ever. All the above "pertaineth to Israel" and they possess them all of God.

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In other words, as Jesus said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." He was NOT sent to Gentiles else He would say so but nowhere in Scriptures does he. He was covenanted to Israel, prophesied to Israel, promised to Israel, and to Israel He came. He commanded His disciples whenever He sent them out to not go into "the way of Gentiles" because the message is primarily for Israel. Before He ascended, He commanded a slight change in His original command. Now, He sends the eleven disciples while on Mount Olives to take the good news to His people living in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth, meaning Gentile lands because that's where the majority of the Jews lived. It was a remnant that returned to Israel with Nehemiah when Cyrus gave them permission to return to Israel. The majority of Hebrews remained in Assyria, Babylon, and every Gentile location in-between and all the way to Timbuktu because that's where God scattered His people. The message? What was the "good news" God commanded be given to the Jews everywhere? Only this: Messiah had come, and God has kept His Promise.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Abraham had one more son mentioned in Scripture: Ishmael. Isaac had at least another son mentioned in Scripture: Esau, Abraham's grandson. These are "of Israel" (Abraham), but they are "not all Israel" according to the promise. And Saul just might be speaking of sons (and daughters) privy to oral tradition that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob might have other offspring not mentioned in Scripture but mentioned in oral tradition.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh: Ishmael and Esau and their descendants
The children of the Promise: Isaac and his descendants.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:1-9.

Then, Saul continues with his Halakah and builds to his conclusion. The conclusion? "Hath God cast away His people?"
The conclusion: "God forbid!" (Or it has never happened and never will, especially in light that the Abrahamic Covenant is an everlasting covenant meaning forever.) Genesis 17:7.
God still has many promises to fulfill towards His Church and Bride Israel. Most are in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Some are in Revelation. The Old Testament and New Testament writings are all Hebrew-originated and are meant TO and FOR Israel. God has made no covenant with Gentiles and owes them nothing. But in order to make Israel jealous and use them to bring back His people and for other God-reasons, God saves Gentiles without a covenant. But everything having to with salvation belong to the Jews. Everything.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You shouldn't be selective. You ignore the main thought in that verse. According to Pharisaic Halakah Saul is reasoning within himself and will come to a conclusion at the end in chapter 11. That's the way rabbis 'argued' a point. You completely misunderstand what Saul said. So, let's try that again:

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Above is a personal reflection of his expectations and desire.

4 Who are Israelites;

He declares THEY ARE ISRAEL, an Israel your understanding concludes to say they are not. There's more. Take note as he builds that THEY ARE ISRAEL:

4 to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

In short Saul is saying, "Salvation is OF THE JEWS." God has never given Gentiles these foundational parts of the building called, "Salvation is OF THE JEWS," for God has made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. Ever. All the above "pertaineth to Israel" and they possess them all of God.

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In other words, as Jesus said, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." He was NOT sent to Gentiles else He would say so but nowhere in Scriptures does he. He was covenanted to Israel, prophesied to Israel, promised to Israel, and to Israel He came. He commanded His disciples whenever He sent them out to not go into "the way of Gentiles" because the message is primarily for Israel. Before He ascended, He commanded a slight change in His original command. Now, He sends the eleven disciples while on Mount Olives to take the good news to His people living in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth, meaning Gentile lands because that's where the majority of the Jews lived. It was a remnant that returned to Israel with Nehemiah when Cyrus gave them permission to return to Israel. The majority of Hebrews remained in Assyria, Babylon, and every Gentile location in-between and all the way to Timbuktu because that's where God scattered His people. The message? What was the "good news" God commanded be given to the Jews everywhere? Only this: Messiah had come, and God has kept His Promise.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Abraham had one more son mentioned in Scripture: Ishmael. Isaac had at least another son mentioned in Scripture: Esau, Abraham's grandson. These are "of Israel" (Abraham), but they are "not all Israel" according to the promise. And Saul just might be speaking of sons (and daughters) privy to oral tradition that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob might have other offspring not mentioned in Scripture but mentioned in oral tradition.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the flesh: Ishmael and Esau and their descendants
The children of the Promise: Isaac and his descendants.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:1-9.

Then, Saul continues with his Halakah and builds to his conclusion. The conclusion? "Hath God cast away His people?"
The conclusion: "God forbid!" (Or it has never happened and never will, especially in light that the Abrahamic Covenant is an everlasting covenant meaning forever.) Genesis 17:7.
God still has many promises to fulfill towards His Church and Bride Israel. Most are in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Some are in Revelation. The Old Testament and New Testament writings are all Hebrew-originated and are meant TO and FOR Israel. God has made no covenant with Gentiles and owes them nothing. But in order to make Israel jealous and use them to bring back His people and for other God-reasons, God saves Gentiles without a covenant. But everything having to with salvation belong to the Jews. Everything.

Not sure what you are trying to argue, here, that the Jews are God's chosen people. They are. But that is not the point of Romans chapter 9. It concludes with:

Rom 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

His conclusion to the point he was raising, was "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness".

I am currently writing a book on free will where I argue the point of Romans 9 from the view of the Early Church writings i.e. those who wrote on Romans 9. Showing the passage indeed states "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness". If you are interested the draft for the book can be found at https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Did God not create the world knowing the destiny of each and every individual who would ever live? Purposely?

I don't believe so. My belief is different from that. I will cut and paste what I believe:

God Does Not Perfectly Know the Future
First, we have to see that God does not have a fixed plan for every action of man. If you go to Genesis you see God was shocked at how bad man had become, and it grieved Him. If everything was set to a fixed plan then this would not have surprised God at all.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

God and Knowing All Outcomes
The degree to which God fixes events is unknown, but some events in our lives are fixed. God does have boundaries to our personal stories. Some of these limits span the whole of creation, from start to end, while others are localized to an individual’s life.

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (NKJV, Act 17:26-27)

What is the point of God restricting choices? A part of it is to give people an equal chance at salvation, by planning stories that are similar, or common to man. Because of this plan, people will not have wildly deviating, chaotic stories, that can not be equally judged. As the Bible says:
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJV, 1 Corinthians 10:13) But also a reason is “That they should seek the Lord if haply they might feel after him, and find him”, God wants us all to find Jesus. Yes, God has set end game moments, He has predetermined points of history that will never change, that is predestined, like the cross, and His return at the time of the end. But there are inconsequential choices that occur in between.

The Two-way Plan for Man, Destiny and Our Choices
To explore God’s plan we will go to King David. In the Psalms he wrote:

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother’s womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see Jeremiah:

Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations. (NKJV, Jeremiah 1:5)

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David for example sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things:

1. God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more.
2. God said “Because you wouldn’t obey me” a curse came into his life.
3. God says “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our story will change. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions.

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (Jeremiah 18:10)

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Therefore thus says the LORD: “If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth. Let them return to you, But you must not return to them. (NKJV, Jeremiah 15:19)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I would think of course it has nothing to do with dying mankind under a curse of the letter of the law DEATH. The appointment all make on time. But does in respect to books (two)

Remember Job 23 informs us God is of one mind and always does whatever his soul desire no man can turn the Potter he makes our hard hearts soft with the water of his word (the gospel)

The names of the elect were written down from the foundation of the world .The six days the Holy Father did work out our salvation .The pouring out of His Holy Spirit on dying flesh.

Two books. #1The book of life, every person he intended to create ,and #2 the lambs book of new born again spirit life .

When compared. . whosoever name is not written in the lamb's book #2 will be erased from the #1book of life . Both books witness the new creation.

The promised gospel prophecy in Genesis 3 and Isaiah 53. . . "demonstrated" to the whole word 2000 years ago. We can look back to the demonstrated prophecy , just as old testament saints looked to the fulfilment

Daniel 7: 9-10 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand ( a unknown number) stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

It's the end of the world the last days the day of Christ .

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

One like the Son of man, Jesus a temopal form. . came with the clouds of heaven the unseen Holy presence of God . Two working as one.(unseen eternal) witness

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 13:7-9King James Version7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

In that we can keep the integrity the Bible. It is referred as the one book of law. (not a book of the philosophies of the world ). Many chapters that many call books (66) Chapters inspired. Books philosophies of men not inspired from above .

Chapter. . .Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I would think a distinction must be made Satan would call it books and not chapters to confuse the doctrine the two boks working as one witness of the Faithful Creator

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (NKJV, Revelation 17:8)

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This would suggest that those in the Book of Life were entered in by God “before” creation, thus supporting Calvinism.

However the actual meaning of the word apo, Strong’s number G575 (Strong 1890), the word “from” can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures which use identical Greek grammar, and phrases to the scripture in the book of Revelation:

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (NKJV, Luke 11:50)

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.(NKJV, Heb 9:26)

What this shows is that Revelation 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed. A technical explanation of this can be found on the Biblical Hermeneutics section of Stack Exchange https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....oes-the-time-clause-connect-in-revelation-138 in the response of user2910

 

[Reformedguy]

I don't believe so. My belief is different from that. I will cut and paste what I believe:

God Does Not Perfectly Know the Future
First, we have to see that God does not have a fixed plan for every action of man. If you go to Genesis you see God was shocked at how bad man had become, and it grieved Him. If everything was set to a fixed plan then this would not have surprised God at all.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

God and Knowing All Outcomes
The degree to which God fixes events is unknown, but some events in our lives are fixed. God does have boundaries to our personal stories. Some of these limits span the whole of creation, from start to end, while others are localized to an individual’s life.

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (NKJV, Act 17:26-27)

What is the point of God restricting choices? A part of it is to give people an equal chance at salvation, by planning stories that are similar, or common to man. Because of this plan, people will not have wildly deviating, chaotic stories, that can not be equally judged. As the Bible says:
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJV, 1 Corinthians 10:13) But also a reason is “That they should seek the Lord if haply they might feel after him, and find him”, God wants us all to find Jesus. Yes, God has set end game moments, He has predetermined points of history that will never change, that is predestined, like the cross, and His return at the time of the end. But there are inconsequential choices that occur in between.

The Two-way Plan for Man, Destiny and Our Choices
To explore God’s plan we will go to King David. In the Psalms he wrote:

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother’s womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see Jeremiah:

Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations. (NKJV, Jeremiah 1:5)

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David for example sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things:

1. God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more.
2. God said “Because you wouldn’t obey me” a curse came into his life.
3. God says “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our story will change. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions.

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (Jeremiah 18:10)

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Therefore thus says the LORD: “If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth. Let them return to you, But you must not return to them. (NKJV, Jeremiah 15:19)

So you deny God's omniscience? Did Christ love you on the cross?

 

[Mr GLee]

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (NKJV, Revelation 17:8)

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. This would suggest that those in the Book of Life were entered in by God “before” creation, thus supporting Calvinism.

However the actual meaning of the word apo, Strong’s number G575 (Strong 1890), the word “from” can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures which use identical Greek grammar, and phrases to the scripture in the book of Revelation:

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (NKJV, Luke 11:50)

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.(NKJV, Heb 9:26)

What this shows is that Revelation 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed. A technical explanation of this can be found on the Biblical Hermeneutics section of Stack Exchange https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....oes-the-time-clause-connect-in-revelation-138 in the response of user2910

Not before but during. 144 hours

All of the work was done in six day the period he did work. There was no work prior to the six or later .

 

[Mr GLee]

Not sure what you are trying to argue, here, that the Jews are God's chosen people. They are. But that is not the point of Romans chapter 9. It concludes with:

Rom 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

His conclusion to the point he was raising, was "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness".

I am currently writing a book on free will where I argue the point of Romans 9 from the view of the Early Church writings i.e. those who wrote on Romans 9. Showing the passage indeed states "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness". If you are interested the draft for the book can be found at https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

The question is what were they chosen to do? Stand? Take a selfie or a snapshot? .

Or display outwardly the unseen eternal things of Christ's faith as a labor of his love, using the "temporal historical dying things seen to give the unseen eternal . The mighty work of God working in dying mankind

Like Mount Sinai et aside as Holy to represent the holiness of God . The dirt or dust is the same as other mountains. Just like the flesh of a Jew the same dying flesh and blood of a gentile that return to the same dust.

I would think obviously to show something about eternal God not seen.using the tempotla dying things sen to unravel the parable which without Christ spoke not

In that way out of all the sinners in the world God used a Jew to show how God works in the affairs' of all of mankind. Revealing how he blesses those who then can bless him. And those who curse and do not do his will that works in them to both will and do it according to the good pleasure of His name A show or demonstration to the whole world

The 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide the parables . Mixing the temporal historical again with the eternal spiritual. No mix (temporal with eternal) no gospel rest (Hebrew 4:1-2)

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen (the historical dying ) are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not sure what you are trying to argue, here, that the Jews are God's chosen people. They are. But that is not the point of Romans chapter 9. It concludes with:

What I am trying to argue against is your re-interpretation of Romans 9. The verse explicitly is referring to Ishmael and Isaac, and then in mid-stream you insert Gentiles for Ishmael and change the meaning of the text to a contraption of Jew against Gentile. And your understanding of Gentile is incorrect when you change it.

Do you know covenant history? How about Jewish history, specifically when Cyrus gave Nehemiah permission to return to their homeland and rebuild their nation. It's quite simple. It's a Jewish covenant and a Jewish Messiah. At the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost) and as per the New Covenant described in Jeremiah the Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (Jer. 32:31-34.) There are no Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in the New Covenant in Jeremiah. It is between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the House of Israel.

What is your understanding of "remnant" because that's the measure of Jews that did return to Israel as prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah. What do you think? 10% is a remnant? I think that's a fair assumption. This means roughly 90% or the majority of Jews remained in Babylon and in Gentile lands in between. With the destruction of the First Jewish Temple the Jews centered their religion around their Feasts. They continued in their religion of the Law of Moses which God required Jewish males to celebrate all their Feasts and Holy Days at Jerusalem. This means that at the Feast of Harvest in Acts 2 there were many more visitors to Jerusalem than there were 'homegrown' citizens at this Feast.

Matthew records Jesus stating that He was to build His Church. Now, when He did this the Church was an outgrowth of the Church in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle with Moses. Only then were they called "Great Congregation." A great congregation of about 4 million Hebrews all situated around the Tabernacle. Twelve tribes. From a mountain top Scripture records Balaam looking down into the Jordan valley and seeing wall to wall Hebrews:

5 He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
Num. 22:5.

Christ promised to build His Church and He began building it with the recorded in Acts 2 new birth salvation of 3000 Jews on the day of this Jewish Feast. The majority of Jews in Jerusalem on this Feast day is staggering. You also quote Saul in Rom. 9:27 who in turn is quoting Isaiah 10:22 which Isaiah says:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Do you see anything wrong or different with Saul's quoting of Isaiah in his Roman letter at 9:27? In case you don't see it, I will tell you. Saul changes the word in the original prophecy of Isaiah 10:22 from "remnant" to "saved" in Rom. 9:27 which completely changes Isaiah's prophecy. Now, if the Holy Spirit wanted Isaiah to say "saved" instead of "remnant" then Isaiah would have said "saved" and Saul's quoting of Isaiah would be perfect.

Also, along with Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Rome he attempts to exert his apostolic authority over this fellowship, a fellowship that wasn't established by him, but by others, specifically those that returned to Rome after the Feast of Harvest in Acts 2.

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Acts 2:10.

Anyway, when Saul quotes Isaiah 10:22 he changes a word in Isaiah's prophecy so that now Isaiah's prophecy has a different and new meaning. Now, I know Saul was an apostle of the Lord at the same level of ministry as the OT prophets, but no one has authority to change the Word of God. No one. God issues a curse in Revelation 22:18 to anyone that does this - whether the original context is the prophecies of Revelation of any recorded truth in the whole of Scripture.

Now, back to your handling in the original OP of Romans 9:1-8. Saul brings up "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [meaning Ishmael], which are of Israel [Abraham]: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh [Ishmael], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed [Isaac]." Rom. 9:6–8.

And then in the OP you do what Saul did and change from children of the flesh (Ishmael) and change it to Gentiles. Completely dishonest with the Scripture. Saul is discussing Ishmael and Isaac but here you make the change:

QUOTE: Rom 9:12-13 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

And now you're changing Ishmael into Gentiles and Saul is not talking about Gentiles.

Saul goes on to write:

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom. 9:29–33.

There are many references to Gentiles in the New Covenant writings. Here's one instance:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom. 2:14.

The Gentiles mentioned here can only be proselytes and God-Fearers. How do we know? Because hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant idol-worshiping Gentiles "do not by nature things contained in the Law," but circumcised, committed Gentile proselytes and uncircumcised, non-committed God-Fearers do. So, Saul's referencing of "Gentiles" in 9:30 is talking about Gentile proselytes and God-Fearers, not idol-worshiping Roman, Scythian, or Barbarian Gentiles who know nothing about the Law and don't care because they are Gentiles and the middle wall partition - even though it was removed the apostles did not come to that realization until later.

Rom 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

His conclusion to the point he was raising, was "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness".

Again, if the context in the NT writings is not referencing "hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant, Roman, Scythian, Barbarian - to name a few - Gentiles" then the identity of the Gentiles mentioned are proselytes and God-Fearers. They would be the ones who first heard of Jesus Messiah as they were in attendance in synagogue when the newly born-again Jews returning from Pentecost testified of their experiences in Jerusalem hearing Peter's sermon and being born again by the Holy Spirit of Promise just as Peter said.
Romans 9:30 is the beginning of what is called as Halakah of the Pharisees. It begins the discussion with "What shall we say then" and ends in Romans 11:36. Saul is arguing with himself and once he discusses the subject (bringing in Gentiles) there is a "God forbid" to the course of his prescribed argument, and from there we can see a ruling is forthcoming (Rom. 11:11.)

I am currently writing a book on free will where I argue the point of Romans 9 from the view of the Early Church writings i.e. those who wrote on Romans 9. Showing the passage indeed states "That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness". If you are interested the draft for the book can be found at https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

Scripture states the Abrahamic Covenant is "everlasting" (Gen. 17:7), the Mosaic Covenant is "forever" (Ex. 31:16), and the New Covenant is made between God and the House of Israel which was temporarily halted with the destruction of the Jewish Temple to bring in Gentiles.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom. 11:25–27.

ALL Israel shall be saved.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What I am trying to argue against is your re-interpretation of Romans 9.

You misunderstand my interpretation, I do not use Ishamael to represent the Gentiles at all.

I have cut and pasted the section on Ishamael here from the book.

However let’s first go to Romans 9 which starts by saying:

nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (NKJV, Romans 9:7-8)

The scripture states that just because a person is a son of Abraham does not make them a child to whom came the promise. The passage about Jacob and Esau I believe is related to this statement. Shows that even though both were sons of Abraham, only Jacob was blessed, he was to continue the line to the “seed” Christ (NKJV. Galatians 3:16), Esau was not blessed in this way. To prove this, we will see that the passage started with the phrase “And not only this”, forcing us to look back over the previous statements; which we shall see was making the story of Jacob and Esau a supportive phrase of Romans 9:7-8. Secondly, we will show the story is a picture of how the Jews gave up the birthright to the Gentiles, as we shall see in the context of scripture, and the writings of the Early Church who wrote on this passage. So let’s start:

That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; (NKJV, Romans 9:8a)

Firstly the topic of the passage is the Jews are not heirs, just because they are children of Abraham.

but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” (NKJV, Romans 9:8b-9)

To prove the point that not the sons of Abraham, but those given the promise, become the bearers of salvation. The passage speaks of the rising of Issac, and the cutting off of Hagar’s son Ishmael. Now note, this is not stating Ishmael was unsaved, he was just not of the line of promise. The passage about Jacob and Esau is very important, it should not be read in an isolated way. As it is connected to the thought that came before it. For it starts with “And not only this”, it is a supporting argument for the past statements, which was

That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God (NKJV, Romans 9:8a)

Meaning the story of Jacob and Esau is there to support the idea that not sons of Abraham but those given the promise become heirs. We see the joining passage here:

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (NKJV, Romans 9:10)

This is speaking of Jacob and Esau, in the same way Issac was speaking of the promise, and the fact Ishmael although a son of Abraham was not the vessel through which salvation would come.

Jacob was chosen by God’s choice to continue the line of Israel, he was given the promise, to be the line through which salvation would arise, through Christ. As the younger, or undeserving; having not worked for it, his life mirrored the fact salvation would be by grace, not works. The individual salvation of Jacob and Esau was not the issue at stake and not the point Paul was trying to make. It was a picture of how the promise is given, and it is the promise that counts. Not the birthright, not the status as a son of Abraham. God used the act as a prophetic picture of the future, that salvation would come to the Gentiles, “not by our works, but by God’s offer, or gift”. The action of God creating prophetic pictures using people’s lives was quite common in scripture, as we shall see.

The view that Jacob and Esau’s is a prophetic picture is supported by the Early Church. Who saw the story of Jacob and Esau as representing the fact that God would accept the Gentiles, the younger, and no longer use Israel as the primary vehicle of salvation although they originally had the birthright.

We see the idea of God using prophetic pictures in the story of Jacob in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, in a book by Barabus [A.D. 100], and also one by Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]. Where they discuss the passage in Romans and link it to the birthright representing the Jews giving over salvation to the Gentile. To more clearly see we will take a quick pull quote from Irenaeus and then show the full passages on Jacob from both these writers:

[Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau. (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21)

... after quoting the church father in detail.

We see in the passage above that both the story of Jacob and that of Manasseh and Ephraim are said to be prophetic pictures depicting the way God would save, by grace, even the Gentile (the undeserving younger), them inheriting the promise.

https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

 

[jeremiah1five]

You misunderstand my interpretation, I do not use Ishamael to represent the Gentiles at all.

However let’s first go to Romans 9 which starts by saying:

nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (NKJV, Romans 9:7-8)

The scripture states that just because a person is a son of Abraham does not make them a child to whom came the promise. The passage about Jacob and Esau I believe is related to this statement. Shows that even though both were sons of Abraham, only Jacob was blessed, he was to continue the line to the “seed” Christ (NKJV. Galatians 3:16), Esau was not blessed in this way. To prove this, we will see that the passage started with the phrase “And not only this”, forcing us to look back over the previous statements; which we shall see was making the story of Jacob and Esau a supportive phrase of Romans 9:7-8. Secondly, we will show the story is a picture of how the Jews gave up the birthright to the Gentiles, as we shall see in the context of scripture, and the writings of the Early Church who wrote on this passage. So let’s start:

The Jews NEVER gave up their birthright. You are dishonest with Scripture. You bring up twins, Esau and Jacob. Jacob was on the promise line, Esau wasn't. Then you use Esau as your proof that Israel gave up their birthright. Well, Jacob is on the promise line and is proof Israel DIDN'T give up their birthright. You can't use one of the twins to prove a point because what about the other one? He just floats out there?

That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; (NKJV, Romans 9:8a)

Again, Saul is making a distinction between children of the flesh (Esau, and his descendants), and children of promise (Jacob, and his descendants.) You're twisting what Saul is saying.

Firstly the topic of the passage is the Jews are not heirs, just because they are children of Abraham.

Well, that's what the covenant says. The descendants of Abraham through the promised seed, Isaac and then Jacob and twelve sons and their descendants. These make up the seed of Abraham:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:7–10.

So, this covenant is EVERLASTING. (that means forever.)
This covenant is between God, Abraham, and his seed FOREVER.
God will give Abraham and his seed (this means the twelve tribes of Israel aka the Jews the land FOREVER to possess.
And God will be their God FOREVER.
And the sign of this eternal, everlasting, forever covenant is circumcision of their flesh. But wait! Ther's more!

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Ezek. 36:21–30.

That sounds like salvation through new birth and there's more information about this new birth in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Like Saul says, "and ALL Israel shall be saved!" (Rom. 11.)

but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” (NKJV, Romans 9:8b-9)

To prove the point that not the sons of Abraham, but those given the promise, become the bearers of salvation. The passage speaks of the rising of Issac, and the cutting off of Hagar’s son Ishmael. Now note, this is not stating Ishmael was unsaved, he was just not of the line of promise. The passage about Jacob and Esau is very important, it should not be read in an isolated way. As it is connected to the thought that came before it. For it starts with “And not only this”, it is a supporting argument for the past statements, which was

That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God (NKJV, Romans 9:8a)

Meaning the story of Jacob and Esau is there to support the idea that not sons of Abraham but those given the promise become heirs. We see the joining passage here:

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (NKJV, Romans 9:10)

This is speaking of Jacob and Esau, in the same way Issac was speaking of the promise, and the fact Ishmael although a son of Abraham was not the vessel through which salvation would come.

Jacob was chosen by God’s choice to continue the line of Israel, he was given the promise, to be the line through which salvation would arise, through Christ. As the younger, or undeserving; having not worked for it, his life mirrored the fact salvation would be by grace, not works. The individual salvation of Jacob and Esau was not the issue at stake and not the point Paul was trying to make. It was a picture of how the promise is given, and it is the promise that counts. Not the birthright, not the status as a son of Abraham. God used the act as a prophetic picture of the future, that salvation would come to the Gentiles, “not by our works, but by God’s offer, or gift”. The action of God creating prophetic pictures using people’s lives was quite common in scripture, as we shall see.

But the promise was given to Abraham and his seed. That's called birthright. Salvation through DNA.

The view that Jacob and Esau’s is a prophetic picture is supported by the Early Church. Who saw the story of Jacob and Esau as representing the fact that God would accept the Gentiles, the younger, and no longer use Israel as the primary vehicle of salvation although they originally had the birthright.

Yup. That's the theology of the Constantinian Gentile church. They unmoored true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots and created a new RELIGION and are like a ship on the sea without a rudder and no port to call home. You've been infected with Gentile heresy. Come out from among them and be separate!
Gentiles writing about their false teaching that Gentiles have replaced Israel in the Redemptive plan of God for His Chosen people and apple of His eye: Israel.

[Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau. (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21)

... after quoting the church father in detail.

We see in the passage above that both the story of Jacob and that of Manasseh and Ephraim are said to be prophetic pictures depicting the way God would save, by grace, even the Gentile (the undeserving younger), them inheriting the promise.

https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/downloads/predestination.pdf

This is a prophecy that was being fulfilled until the destruction of the Jewish Second Temple. When that happened, Christ stopped building His Church in order to "bring in Gentiles - both proselytes and God-Fearers - and when the Times of the Gentiles ends - and it will end - God turns His attention back on Abraham's seed (because He made promises to him and them - removes their blindness and then, as Saul said, ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!"
Can I get a Hallelu-JAH!