Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[Ghada]

Rather than Romans 9 confirming predeterminism, the Scripture rebukes it and confirms the free will of man created in God's image.

The error is by people plucking certain Scriptures out of context, which changes the truth into a lie. Many do so as a novice mistake, and some do so willfully to confirm their own lies.

The context of Romans 9 is twofold: God has the right to choose and elect His people. And that right is exercised only after being created, not before. And, God also has right to judge all men, which is only by our works, not by our birth.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The election is made after being created and conceived in the womb, not before.

Gen 25:22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

And the election was not made until after Rebecca's prayer of intercession, due to the struggling of her twins in the womb.

By context of all Scripture together, we see that the election of God is not made before creation and conception, but only afterward, as well as only after prayer of intercession is made to God.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This is quoted from Mal 1:

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Nothing is said about when and how God loved Jacob and hated Esau, especially not before creation. God's election was made while in the womb. Scripture does not delcare His love for Jacob and hate for Esau at that time.

We see in Mal 1, that God's hating of Esau is His judgment of Esau's nation, which can only be by the works of Esau and his descendents. For God judges every man only by his work, not by his birth.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The rejection of Esau from God Himself was by his works, not by his creation. The same for the LORD casting down Lucifer, and driving out Adam by unrepented transgression.

And so, election is after creation, and judgment is by works.

The only 'pre' election and choosing of God, is from the womb before any works are done in life. And even in that case, there is still a struggling between the twins, followed by the mother's intercession made for them to God.

 

[Ghada]

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

These are the two bookends on either side of the Scriptures v19-21, that predeterminists say confirms God's preplanned creation of some to do good unto life, and others to do evil unto destruction, without any freewill of choice in doing good or evil.

And these bookends say nothing of God creating men a certain way, but only of God's dealings with men and judgment by their works.

The God of Israel raised up that Pharoah, just as He raises up all Pharoahs and kings and rulers on earth. That Pharoah then did wickedly by the children of Israel, not because of God's will, but because of his own lust against the children of Israel.

The Scripture does not say the LORD created nor made him to do so. He raised the man to a position of power, He did not create nor raise him up evilly.

And with the vessels fitted for wrath, God longsuffers their wickedness for His purposes. Scripture once again does not say He creates nor makes any vessels to do wickedly.

And so, once again Romans 9 has nothing to do with how men are created and concieved in the womb, but rather all about how God elects people after conception, and judges us by our works.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

First, this is not a revelation that God only knows certain people before He creates them. Rather, it is confirmation, as with Josiah, that God foreknows us before conception. Foreknowing is not predetermining nor foreplanning how to create the person.

It's the same in Ps 139, where David prophecies of how God does make the souls of men, both fearfully and wonderfully. As in Jerem 1, that revelation does not pertain to David alone, but is revealed for all men to know how God creates all our souls.

And, in that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made by Christ, we are created wonderfully, not dreadfully, and also made with the fear of the Lord, which is by Christ lighting all men coming into the world. (John 1:9)

Second, as with Jacob, the babe in the womb was elected to be a prophet after conception, not before. And as with Rebecca making intercession for Jacob and Esau, so also was Jeremiah no doubt interceeded for by his father Hilkiah, a priest of Anathoth. And certainly the same is said for Samuel by his godly mother Hanna.

 

[Ghada]

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Now we see accusation against God for His manner of election and judgment. The charge is of being 'unfair'.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Now we see where the accusation come from: The error of predeterminism of God, and no freewill of man. It is inmputed into the Scriptures on the election and judgment of God. And so leads to an obvious right to accuse Him of unrighteousness.

If no man can resist the will of God, being made without autonomous will in His image, then how can God justly judge men by their works? Whether doing good or evil, all men are only doing the will of God created in them, and so doing the works He wills men to do by making them that way.

And so, we see the lie of predertiminism is behind the self-justifying accusation against God, "It's not my fault God made me this way..."

Predeterminist self-justifiers in Paul's day were already declaring God has no right to judge them by their works, since they are only doing what God makes them to do by creation.

Romans 9 is about election after conception and judgment by works, and only when the lie of predeterminism is imputed into the Scripture, is an accusation against God made pertaining to His manner of election and judgment.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

In Rom 9, as also in Rom 3, Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man), the apostle is only repeating what some men say, in order to find fault with God: Who can resist His will? Which only a predertermist would say, Man has no freewill to resist God.

And by Scripture speaking of what some fault-finders say, we know it is not an honest question, even as on the face of it, the question must be wilfully ignorant of the truth. both angels and men have been resisting the will of God, since Lucifer and Adam first lusted against Him and disobeyed His good will.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Act 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Therefore, the question is manifestly not sincere nor honest, but rather is one of those decietful complex sort of questions, that seek to prove a belief by rigging the question:

"For who hath resisted his will?" Therefore, no man has free will to resist God. "For who has stopped beating his wife?" Therefore, all husbands beat their wives.

And so the first domino of predeterminist deciet falls with v 19.

 

[Ghada]

The second domino v 20:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Right off, God's answer to the accusation is nay: God is not unrighteous to judge men by their works, as with Pharoah and Esau, because they did manifestly resist His will to do good by the chidren of Israel, and not sell God's birthright for beans.

The reply against God is born of the lie of predetermination without freewill for man, is nay.

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

In this question, there is no answer pertaining to how God creates men, but only that He does so, and is asked why. It does not pertain to being created with or without freewill. Reading one or the other into it, is a false assumption.

Shall the thing formed with freewill ask why? Sure. Why does God make man with autonomy to resist Him, when God could just make all men to do good without freedom of choice? Even the predeterminists acknowledge that question and power of God.

Third domino, v 21:

Rom 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And here we have the only verse, that can possibly be interpreted that God creates and makes people honorable or dishonorable by His own will alone.

But the Scripture is not speaking of the soul of man, which is made fearfully and wonderfully under the earth, but is only speaking of the physical body of man, which is the soul's earthen vessel made by God for man on earth.

Nowhere in Scripture is the soul of man ever referred to as vessel, because the soul is made by spirit, not by earth.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Even as with Esau and Pharoah, God's judgment is for their works in the flesh, not for their creation by Christ with a body of flesh. The vessels fitted for destruction are the bodies of men made wicked by their choice and devices.

Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.

Psa 33:10The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

Both body and soul is destroyed in hell by unrepented wickedness on earth. The vessels fitted for destruction are the bodies of wicked men doing wickedly on earth.

The spirit of man alone can do neither good nor evil on earth, but only with the body. And it is with the body, that the wicked dead shall live again to be judged by their works.

God does not create nor make any man to do evil and dishonor himself before God and men, no more than Christ makes any natural body evil.

Predeterminism without freewill comes down to a single Scripture theology, also called a shoestring Scripture doctrine. None of the other verses used for such doctrine have anything to do with God's creation of the soul, but only post-conception. And Rom 9:21 is also speaking oif the natural body, that men personally use to do good or evil on earth. The freedom and use of body and will of man, is only limited by nature, not by the commanded will of God or man, if we are wilfully set by our own lust to device and do evil.

All other arguments of predeterminists throughout the Bible, are only spent with much effort to argue by original languages and personal philosophy, against the Scriptures stating plainly that God creates all man and women in His image, and grants freedom of will to eat of the good, as well as liberty to make freewill offerings in return to God.

Other than a single Scripture applied wrongly to the soul, and not to the body born from the womb, all their energies are spent in showing how eating freely, and frewill giving is not so free afterall.

The only question remains, why? What's the point? Afterall, it's silly to ask who hath resisted the will of God, when all men including themselves have manifestly resisted God unto disobedience and dishonour after the manner of Adam, as well as many angels that sinned after the manner of Lucifer.

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing in scripture confirms man has a freewill, he has a responsible will, but its not free from the enslavement of sin while dead in sin ! Its not free from the Sovereign will of God either, James wisely wrote:

James 4 13-16

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

 

[Mr GLee]

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Right off, God's answer to the accusation is nay: God is not unrighteous to judge men by their works, as with Pharoah and Esau, because they did manifestly resist His will to do good by the chidren of Israel, and not sell God's birthright for beans.

The reply against God is born of the lie of predetermination without freewill for man, is nay.

God created the will on mankind with a memory in respect to the teacher comforter and guide. he miraculously does bring to believers new born again minds the wonderful gift of memory the previous things he has taught. He promise he will continue to the end

The food the aotles knew not of (John4) the food power of the father that worked in the son of man Jesus to both (the key) understand the will and empower dying mankind to do it to his credit .He alone makes the hard heart of mankind soft


Job 23:11-12 My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

The words of the fathers mouth to food the apostles knew not of our daily bread .Yoked with him our daily burden can be lighter. with a living hope beyond the grave

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

No man can turn him? Why would anyone desire to be like God and ascend to above the cloud of his presence.? Like a Pope

 

[Ghada]

Nothing in scripture confirms man has a freewill, he has a responsible will, but its not free from the enslavement of sin while dead in sin ! Its not free from the Sovereign will of God either, James wisely wrote:

James 4 13-16

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

If you can show any error in the argument for freewill from the Bible, then I'd be glad to see it.

Otherwise, unbelief is not an answer, but only the exercise of one's freewill to believe or not believe something.

 

[CrowCross]

God does not create nor make any man to do evil and dishonor himself before God and men, no more than Christ makes any natural body evil

Why do all men sin and fall short of the glory of God?

 

[CrowCross]

Sinners still have freewill to do good deeds, but not freedom from lust to serve the Lord with a pure heart.

Are you saying it's our "works" that save us?

 

[Ghada]

Here's an example of how to answer arguments point by point:

Nothing in scripture confirms man has a freewill,

One should read the whole Bible before declaring what the Bible does or doesn't say.

Ezr 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Just a couple examples of freewill given to man by God.

he has a responsible will,

Which is only possible with freewill of choice.

The judgment of us by our works, is holding us responsible for our freewill.

Animals have no such freedom, and so are not judged responsible for what they do naturally, having no freewill to do otherwise.

but its not free from the enslavement of sin while dead in sin !

Freedom from sin to serve the Lord, is the responsible exercise of freewill.

Sinners still have freewill to do good deeds, but not freedom from lust to serve the Lord with a pure heart.

Its not free from the Sovereign will of God either, James wisely wrote:

And, freedom from the judgment of God, is not the freewill to do good or evil.

Freewill is the power to choose good or evil, it's not freedom from being judged by our works.

Angels and men are judged by works, because we are responsible for our freewill decisions.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

And finally, freewill to do good or evil on earth, is not freedom from death.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The promise of abusing freewill against God is indeed godlike, but very deceptive, because it's not everlasting.

Man's freewill of choice ends in the grave, when the Lord's judgment holds all men responsible our use of freewill by works.

Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Men can freely choose to hate the knowledge of their own freewill, and make themselves equal with the beasts of the field, but that power of unbelief will end in the grave, when unlike the natural brute beasts, we will be judged by our works we choose to do.

The devil made me do it, is not an excuse for willingly disobeying God.

Neither can God be blamed for what we do, since His will can be resisted by man with freewill. Natural brute beasts have no freewill to resist God or nature.

 

[brightfame52]

Here's an example of how to answer arguments point by point:

One should read the whole Bible before declaring what the Bible does or doesn't say.

Ezr 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Just a couple examples of freewill given to man by God.

Which is only possible with freewill of choice.

The judgment of us by our works, is holding us responsible for our freewill.

Animals have no such freedom, and so are not judged responsible for what they do naturally, having no freewill to do otherwise.




Freedom from sin to serve the Lord, is the responsible exercise of freewill.

Sinners still have freewill to do good deeds, but not freedom from lust to serve the Lord with a pure heart.


And, freedom from the judgment of God, is not the freewill to do good or evil.

Freewill is the power to choose good or evil, it's not freedom from being judged by our works.

Angels and men are judged by works, because we are responsible for our freewill decisions.



And finally, freewill to do good or evil on earth, is not freedom from death.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The promise of abusing freewill against God is indeed godlike, but very deceptive, because it's not everlasting.

Man's freewill of choice ends in the grave, when the Lord's judgment holds all men responsible our use of freewill by works.

Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Men can freely choose to hate the knowledge of their own freewill, and make themselves equal with the beasts of the field, but that power of unbelief will end in the grave, when unlike the natural brute beasts, we will be judged by our works we choose to do.

The devil made me do it, is not an excuse for willingly disobeying God.

Neither can God be blamed for what we do, since His will can be resisted by man with freewill. Natural brute beasts have no freewill to resist God or nature.

No where does it say man has a freewill. A freewill offering isn't the same thing, a person who gives a freewill offering is still a slave to sin dead in sin. Many Pharisees gave freewill offerings but Jesus said they were servants of sin, in fact most of the corrupt spiritually dead jews could give a freewill offering,but remained a servant of sin Jn 8 34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant/slave of sin

Thats every sinner born into the world !

 

[CrowCross]

Here's an example of how to answer arguments point by point:

One should read the whole Bible before declaring what the Bible does or doesn't say.

Ezr 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Just a couple examples of freewill given to man by God.

Which is only possible with freewill of choice.

The judgment of us by our works, is holding us responsible for our freewill.

Animals have no such freedom, and so are not judged responsible for what they do naturally, having no freewill to do otherwise.




Freedom from sin to serve the Lord, is the responsible exercise of freewill.

Sinners still have freewill to do good deeds, but not freedom from lust to serve the Lord with a pure heart.


And, freedom from the judgment of God, is not the freewill to do good or evil.

Freewill is the power to choose good or evil, it's not freedom from being judged by our works.

Angels and men are judged by works, because we are responsible for our freewill decisions.



And finally, freewill to do good or evil on earth, is not freedom from death.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The promise of abusing freewill against God is indeed godlike, but very deceptive, because it's not everlasting.

Man's freewill of choice ends in the grave, when the Lord's judgment holds all men responsible our use of freewill by works.

Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Men can freely choose to hate the knowledge of their own freewill, and make themselves equal with the beasts of the field, but that power of unbelief will end in the grave, when unlike the natural brute beasts, we will be judged by our works we choose to do.

The devil made me do it, is not an excuse for willingly disobeying God.

Neither can God be blamed for what we do, since His will can be resisted by man with freewill. Natural brute beasts have no freewill to resist God or nature.

Tell me..if a man has free-will, why do some choose Jesus and others not?

 

[Mr GLee]

If you can show any error in the argument for freewill from the Bible, then I'd be glad to see it.

Otherwise, unbelief is no answer anything, but only the exercise of one's freewill to believe or not believe something.

Without showing any errors in an argument, it only proves unwillingness to believe it. Which is every person's choice by right of creation in the image of God.

Freed will.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman

Freed will, Called the freewoman in Galatians 4

The food of Christ's will, strengthening dying mankind.to both (the key) reveal the good will of Christ and or with power to do it to His good pleasure. The kind of food (daily) the apostles knew not of at first .Yoked with him our daily burdems lighter with aliving hope beyond what the eyes see ( living faith)

Galatians 4: 31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

In that way all truth is God's true when we perform truth we do it to his glory . What goes up must come down his glory . What comes down his daily bread.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Husbands love your wives .

 

[His clay]

Rather than Romans 9 confirming predeterminism, the Scripture rebukes it and confirms the free will of man created in God's image.

The error is by people plucking certain Scriptures out of context, which changes the truth into a lie. Many do so as a novice mistake, and some do so willfully to confirm their own lies.

The context of Romans 9 is twofold: God has the right to choose and elect His people. And that right is exercised only after being created, not before. And, God also has right to judge all men, which is only by our works, not by our birth.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The election is made after being created and conceived in the womb, not before.

Gen 25:22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

And the election was not made until after Rebecca's prayer of intercession, due to the struggling of her twins in the womb.

By context of all Scripture together, we see that the election of God is not made before creation and conception, but only afterward, as well as only after prayer of intercession is made to God.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This is quoted from Mal 1:

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Nothing is said about when and how God loved Jacob and hated Esau, especially not before creation. God's election was made while in the womb. Scripture does not delcare His love for Jacob and hate for Esau at that time.

We see in Mal 1, that God's hating of Esau is His judgment of Esau's nation, which can only be by the works of Esau and his descendents. For God judges every man only by his work, not by his birth.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The rejection of Esau from God Himself was by his works, not by his creation. The same for the LORD casting down Lucifer, and driving out Adam by unrepented transgression.

And so, election is after creation, and judgment is by works.

The only 'pre' election and choosing of God, is from the womb before any works are done in life. And even in that case, there is still a struggling between the twins, followed by the mother's intercession made for them to God.

"Rather than Romans 9 confirming predeterminism, the Scripture rebukes it and confirms the free will of man created in God's image."

1. What is meant by "free will" is left unstated. This failure means that people will inevitably talk past each other due to differing definitions.
2. God's image cannot entail libertarian freedom, since God does not have libertarian freedom. This would be a non-sequitur fallacy.
3. As of yet, an actual verse in R9 has not been presented. But that's fine since this is the opening. But I will be looking for the verse in R9 that allows such a statement to be objectively grounded.

"The error is by people plucking certain Scriptures out of context, which changes the truth into a lie. Many do so as a novice mistake, and some do so willfully to confirm their own lies."

1. The main problem is a lack of objective grounding. No objective evidence is given of people taking Scripture out of context. It is here asserted, but not demonstrated.
2. Accusations of lying needs to be demonstrated, not merely asserted. Poisoning the well fallacy is here noted. The statement of "novice mistake" is again not demonstrated but rather baselessly asserted. Again, poisoning the well fallacy is utilized.

"The context of Romans 9 is twofold: God has the right to choose and elect His people. And that right is exercised only after being created, not before. And, God also has right to judge all men, which is only by our works, not by our birth."

1. We are told what the context is, but we do not see any objective evidence for the context being what is stated. Where is the scripture that establishes the context you are asserting?
2. We can read "judge all men, which is only by our works." But then we see the words in v10 quoted, "election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." Scripture says "not of works," but the opening post says "by our works." This is a direct contradiction. It seems the opening poster does not know how to read with comprehension. Again, this demonstrates a near total failure to objectively ground a belief upon the actual words of scripture.

I'll stop here to see what kind of quality the response demonstrates.

 

[Eleanor]

Free will is the power to execute all moral choices, including the choice to be sinless.

Adam had complete free will.

He lost it in the fall by choosing sin (disobedience to God) instead of obedience.

Now unregenerate man does not have the power to execute all moral choices, for he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34 Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22).
His free will is limited. . .now unregenerate man chooses what he prefers, self over God.

 

[Ghada]

Why do all men sin and fall short of the glory of God?

The same reason Lucifer first sinned by concieving lust in his own heart, that was created pure and good by God.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
As with angels that sinned in heaven, so with men created in God's image sinning by lust on earth.

Jas 1:14 Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

How angels and men sin, is by concieving lust in our hearts against God. However, why angels and man corrupt the pure heart created by God to their own destruction? God pleads with His own people asking why, but He gives no answer.

Deu 5:29O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Their is no reason why any creature created for the good by God's pleasure, should conceive lust to do evil against Him and ourselves.

It's certainly not because God creates any man that way, nor with any intent that anyt man lusts to do evil, else it would be a hypocritical charade to ask why.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Ghada]

Are you saying it's our "works" that save us?

Are you reading that from anything I write? If so, show it, and let's see.

 

[Ghada]

No where does it say man has a freewill. A freewill offering isn't the same thing,

I don't argue with unbelief covered by senseless sophistry.

a person who gives a freewill offering is still a slave to sin dead in sin.

Which is why sinners still have their created freewill, to give a freewill offering for good or bad reasons.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Anyone created by God with the purpose to do evil, can give no freewill offering, but only by necessity according to God's purpose. As with the beasts of the field, all things are done by necessity alone, not by freewill from the heart.

Denying man freewill from God, is denying being made in His image, and making man to be the same as brute beasts.

2 Peter{2:12} But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant/slave of sin

Thats every sinner born into the world !

Already answered.

Your habit is to ignore arguments you don't agree with, and just teach what you already believe for yourself. It's every person's God-given right and freedom to believe what they will, but it doesn't disprove any argument to the contrary.

 

[Ghada]

Tell me..if a man has free-will, why do some choose Jesus and others not?

The same reason some choose to repent or not.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I don't read in Scripture any answer to God's own pleading question? If God doesn't know why? Do you?

Predeterminism is man's vain effort to explain what God cannot explain, which in itself is just more philosophy of man. But it becomes evil by concluding it's God's fault for creating man to do evil.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Predeterminism is a Christian version of fatalist pagan gods, that are worshipped as evil, and loved for the evil they make them do.

That explains why evil men worship evil gods, but it still does not explain why any man would lust against the true God and good Creator to their own destruction.

 

[Ghada]

Freed will.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman

Freed will, Called the freewoman in Galatians 4

Very good again. Even as becoming a freedman, when born again.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Which is once again to have freewill from God as newborn babes.

Act 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

Elsa the lioness may have been born free, but she certainly wasn't born a woman with freewill...

Husbands love your wives .

Good advice. Reciprocating too.