Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[CrowCross]

The same reason some choose to repent or not.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I don't read in Scripture any answer to God's own pleading question? If God doesn't know why? Do you?

Predeterminism is man's vain effort to explain what God cannot explain, which in itself is just more philosophy of man. But it becomes evil by concluding it's God's fault for creating man to do evil.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Predeterminism is a Christian version of fatalist pagan gods, that are worshipped as evil, and loved for the evil they make them do.

That explains why evil men worship evil gods, but it still does not explain why any man would lust against the true God and good Creator to their own destruction.

When I read your post I don't see you connecting the dots.

I see you confusing predeterminism and fatalism with predestination, the doctrine that God chooses those who go to heaven before they are even born.

 

[Mr GLee]

When I read your post I don't see you connecting the dots.

I see you confusing predeterminism and fatalism with predestination, the doctrine that God chooses those who go to heaven before they are even born.

Yes he is the "Let there be" names writen in the lambs book of eternal life. . slain from the foundation .the six day the father did work. "and it was Christ alone good " .

Two books some erasing from one book . . just as never born the first time.

 

[Eleanor]

Why do all men sin and fall short of the glory of God?

Because they inherit Adam's fallen nature and his sin is imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14, 18-19).

Man is not a sinner because he sins, man sins because he is born a sinner, by nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3).

 

[CrowCross]

Because they inherit Adam's fallen nature and his sin is imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14, 18-19).

Man is not a sinner because he sins, man sins because he is born a sinner, by nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3).

I'm undecided as to whether Adams sin are imputed to men...but I do know the fallen nature of Adam is.
I do agree that "Man is not a sinner because he sins, man sins because he is born a sinner, by nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3)."

 

[Eleanor]

I'm undecided as to whether Adams sin are imputed to men...but I do know the fallen nature of Adam is.
I do agree that "Man is not a sinner because he sins, man sins because he is born a sinner, by nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3)."

See Ro 5:14, 17 where the imputation of Adam's sin to those of Adam, between Adam and Moses who had no sin accounted to them but died anyway (sin being the cause of death, Ro 6:23) was the pattern of the one to come (Christ, whose righteousness is likewise imputed to those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

 

[Ghada]

"Rather than Romans 9 confirming predeterminism, the Scripture rebukes it and confirms the free will of man created in God's image."

1. What is meant by "free will" is left unstated. This failure means that people will inevitably talk past each other due to differing definitions.

God defines the words He uses by His sensible use of them in Scripture. Freewill offereings are by freewill: Freely given corresponds to freely eating.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Freely eating and giving is further called cheerfulness, which is by freely purposing in our own hearts, without necessity of doing something else.

Predeterminism makes all things done by necessity with freewill, even as beasts of the field. They can only do what they were purposed to do by creation by necessity, not by free choice.

Only by freewill can anything be done cheerfully. Brute beasts only do what is necessary, without any good cheer.

1. God's image cannot entail libertarian freedom, since God does not have libertarian freedom. This would be a non-sequitur fallacy.

Arguing whether God is a libertarian or not, is not an argument against freewill. Freewill is the liberty to choose to be a libertarian, nihilist, marxist, royalist, hermit, etc...

God's gvt is a monarchial theocracy, who King and Lord is Jesus Christ.

1. As of yet, an actual verse in R9 has not been presented. But that's fine since this is the opening.

If you read past the opening, you'll see the Scriptures quoted in italics.

"The error is by people plucking certain Scriptures out of context, which changes the truth into a lie. Many do so as a novice mistake, and some do so willfully to confirm their own lies."

1. The main problem is a lack of objective grounding.

True. The discipline of rightly dividing the word of truth demands objectivity.

That's why the Lord Jesus says we must always come to Him as little children, without any bias and personal agenda. As well as without any learned letters of philosophy, theology, mysticism, traditions, etc...that would cloud the simple meaning of what He says.

1. No objective evidence is given of people taking Scripture out of context. It is here asserted, but not demonstrated.

Sufficiently for me. If you see error in it, then show where. Otherwise, people have freewill to disagree, but it does nothing to disprove anything.

1. The statement of "novice mistake" is again not demonstrated but rather baselessly asserted.

Again, sufficiently for me.

"The context of Romans 9 is twofold: God has the right to choose and elect His people. And that right is exercised only after being created, not before. And, God also has right to judge all men, which is only by our works, not by our birth."

1. We are told what the context is, but we do not see any objective evidence for the context being what is stated. Where is the scripture that establishes the context you are asserting?

Are you saying God does not have the right to choose and elect His people? Or, that His election is not only after creation in the womb, or after birth?

Or, are you saying these things are not just sufficiently proven by the Scriptural argument? If so, then first show the insufficiency of the argument that is given.

1. We can read "judge all men, which is only by our works." But then we see the words in v10 quoted, "election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

Correct. One is for election, and the other is for judgment.

The election of the chosen is not of works, and the judgment of all men is by works, both chosen and unchosen alike.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The elect are judged by their works at the judgment seat of Christ. The rest of the dead are judged by their works at the GWT.

1. Scripture says "not of works," but the opening post says "by our works."
2. This is a direct contradiction.

Only if speaking of the same thing. One is election of the chosen, and the other is judgment of all men.

 

[Eleanor]

God defines the words He uses by His sensible use of them in Scripture. Freewill offereings are by freewill: Freely given corresponds to freely eating.

Free will in its one use in Scripture means voluntary.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Freely eating and giving is further called cheerfulness, which is by freely purposing in our own hearts, without necessity of doing something else.
Predeterminism makes all things done by necessity with freewill, even as beasts of the field. They can only do what they were purposed to do by creation by necessity, not by free choice.
Only by freewill can anything be done cheerfully. Brute beasts only do what is necessary, without any good cheer.
Arguing whether God is a libertarian or not, is not an argument against freewill. Freewill is the liberty to choose to be a libertarian, nihilist, marxist, royalist, hermit, etc...
God's gvt is a monarchial theocracy, who King and Lord is Jesus Christ.
If you read past the opening, you'll see the Scriptures quoted in italics.
True. The discipline of rightly dividing the word of truth demands objectivity.
That's why the Lord Jesus says we must always come to Him as little children, without any bias and personal agenda. As well as without any learned letters of philosophy, theology, mysticism, traditions, etc...that would cloud the simple meaning of what He says.
Sufficiently for me. If you see error in it, then show where. Otherwise, people have freewill to disagree, but it does nothing to disprove anything.
Again, sufficiently for me.
Are you saying God does not have the right to choose and elect His people? Or, that His election is not only after creation in the womb, or after birth?
Or, are you saying these things are not just sufficiently proven by the Scriptural argument? If so, then first show the insufficiency of the argument that is given.




Correct. One is for election, and the other is for judgment.

The election of the chosen is not of works, and the judgment of all men is by works, both chosen and unchosen alike.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The elect are judged by their works at the judgment seat of Christ. The rest of the dead are judged by their works at the GWT.




Only if speaking of the same thing. One is election of the chosen, and the other is judgment of all men.

 

[Ghada]

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

No man can turn him? Why would anyone desire to be like God and ascend to above the cloud of his presence.? Like a Pope

Here you show the difference between having freewill to resist the will of the Lord, vs having freedom to stop His will from being done.

Freewill is power to choose good or evil, when the will of God for all men is to do good. Our freewill is not power to stop God's will from judging us by our works.

Pharoah resisted the will of God to let His people go, but He could not resist God's will to set His people free. As God's will became more purposed in works, Pharaoh's heart became more hardened in destruction.

 

[Ghada]

Free will in its one use in Scripture means voluntary.

No problem. Man is created in the image of God with voluntary will to do or not do good or evil.

Beasts of the field have no voluntary will. They have no freedom to do other than their created purpose.

Since God creates all creatures for the good, man's voluntary will proves his separation from natural brute beasts, by voluntarily choosing to do evil, rather than good.

Man without free voluntary will is as a brute beast, with no power to do other than as nature demands.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And, denying man's freewill is the natural man rejecting creation in God's image.

2Pe 2:12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Ghada]

Free will is the power to execute all moral choices, including the choice to be sinless.

Exactly. Only born sons of God have the free power to wilfully do His righteousness without lust and sin.

However, all men are still created in God's image with the gift of freewill to do good or evil deeds. But those sold to lust and sin cannot be justified by doing a good deed, because no man can serve the Lord without a pure heart.

Adam had complete free will.

True. As do all men created in the image of God by Jesus Christ, and lightened by Him from the womb. It's only when men sin as Adam, that the power to serve Him with a pure heart is lost.

But by the grace of God men that sin can repent, unlike Adam, and become as newborn babes with renewed power to serve Him, with a whole new heart cleansed from the old lust.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

He lost it in the fall by choosing sin (disobedience to God) instead of obedience.

He lost his power to obey God with a pure heart. By creation he could still freely choose to do good deads, but not with justification in service to God.

Now unregenerate man does not have the power to execute all moral choices, for he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34 Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22).

True. As with Adam, every man that sins, loses the power to serve God with a pure heart. But as with Adam, all men still have the freewill by creation to do good deeds, but only in service to himself, family, coummunity, but no more to God and His righteous kingdom.

His free will is limited. .

All freewill of men on earth is limited by natural law. Even as all freewill of angels in heaven is limited by divine law.

That created freewill of God can be abused by angels and men, to disobey the law of the Lord in heaven and on earth.

But no angel nor man has freedom nor power to resist God judging us by our works.

2Pe 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

.now unregenerate man chooses what he prefers, self over God.

True again. Even when choosing to do a good dead, the sinner is still not justified with God by corruption of lust in the heart.

2 Peter 1:3Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[Ghada]

Nowhere does it say man has a freewill, he is a slave to sin. Just because a person purposes something in their heart doesnt make their will free from sin nor the sovereignty of God. I see your desperation

I see your desparation to ignore what I write, and only repeat yourself.

When you want to quote me and show any error in it, then I'd be glad to see it. Otherwise, I responded to what you teach the first time.

 

[Ghada]

When I read your post I don't see you connecting the dots.

Show the disconnect, and maybe I can do better at connecting them.

I see you confusing predeterminism and fatalism with predestination, the doctrine that God chooses those who go to heaven before they are even born.

Which is why I only show Scriptures against predeterminist fatalism, not against Scriptural predestination.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God's predestination is of what His elect must conform to: the image of Jesus Christ.

Predeterminism, as you say, is God prechoosing who will be His elect before birth. (And as is usually the case, I've never heard from any of the prechosen elite, who actually say they are now conformed to the image of Jesus Christ...)

 

[brightfame52]

I see your desparation to ignore what I write, and only repeat yourself.

When you want to quote me and show any error in it, then I'd be glad to see it. Otherwise, I responded to what you teach the first time.

Nowhere does it say man has a freewill, he is a slave to sin. Any heathen idolator can give a freewill offering, that's not the same thing, you desperate.

 

[Mr GLee]

Here you show the difference between having freewill to resist the will of the Lord, vs having freedom to stop His will from being done.

Freewill is power to choose good or evil, when the will of God for all men is to do good. Our freewill is not power to stop God's will from judging us by our works.

Pharoah resisted the will of God to let His people go, but He could not resist God's will to set His people free. As God's will became more purposed in works, Pharaoh's heart became more hardened in destruction.

Hi thanks for the reply

I would offer looking to the foundation .

All truth as law not subject to change is God's truth not one truth as law comes from a oral tradition as philosophies of dying mankind . When we do the right thing, the truthful . . we have walked by faith the unseen understanding the power of Christ . No Jay walking .

An atheist would do it to his own glory saying .I am a good person .and they could be very good .But God who name is Jealous does not share his power to raise the dead with the dead .(necromancy)

Believers have that faithful power working in them (Emanuel) but would never blaspheme his name by using it is if our own power .Our treasure is in heaven

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Better things accompany those who have been born again from above . God has a great memory

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

In that way what ever we drink or do we do it to His Faithful glory .

Even the yes dear . . please a cup of coffee with sweet cream and two peanut butter cookies . . .coming up . She is checking the list twice LOL

 

[CrowCross]

See Ro 5:14, 17 where the imputation of Adam's sin to those of Adam, between Adam and Moses who had no sin accounted to them but died anyway (sin being the cause of death, Ro 6:23) was the pattern of the one to come (Christ, whose righteousness is likewise imputed to those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

I don't see it. Sorry.
Yes, Adam was the cause of death...the fall....the reason why we sin....but is the actual sin committed by Adam imputed to us or is it the result of the sin of Adam....the change in us...imputed to us and is now our nature?

 

[CrowCross]

Predeterminism, as you say, is God prechoosing who will be His elect before birth. (And as is usually the case, I've never heard from any of the prechosen elite, who actually say they are now conformed to the image of Jesus Christ...)

Sanctification doesn't happen overnight.

 

[Eleanor]

No problem. Man is created in the image of God with voluntary will to do or not do good or evil.

Man is not free to live a perfectly sinless life.
He is free to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, and with his fallen nature he prefers his will over God's will.
He must be born again to live in obedience to God.

Beasts of the field have no voluntary will. They have no freedom to do other than their created purpose.

Since God creates all creatures for the good, man's voluntary will proves his separation from natural brute beasts, by voluntarily choosing to do evil, rather than good.

Man without free voluntary will is as a brute beast, with no power to do other than as nature demands.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And, denying man's freewill is the natural man rejecting creation in God's image.

2Pe 2:12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Eleanor]

I don't see it. Sorry.
Yes, Adam was the cause of death...the fall....the reason why we sin....but is the actual sin committed by Adam imputed to us or is it the result of the sin of Adam....the change in us...imputed to us and is now our nature?

The cause of death is sin (Ro 6:23).

The burden of Ro 5:12-14,
which presents all those of Adam dying between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths,
is that men died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17),
and which (imputation) is the pattern of the one to come (Ro 5:14,
i.e., pattern for righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man." (Ro 5:17).
Death reigned through that one man because of the imputation of that one man's sin (trespass) to all mankind (Ro 5:17-19).

It was the sin of Adam ("sin was in the world") that was charged (imputed) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17) which caused death between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
and which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being charged (imputed) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[brightfame52]

@Eleanor

It was the sin of Adam ("sin was in the world") that was charged (imputed) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14) which caused death between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
and which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being charged (imputed) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Okay, good analogy, so is it just like with adam, in that adams sin was imputed to his w/o their actual disobedience, is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

 

[Eleanor]

@Eleanor


Okay, good analogy, so is it just like with adam, in that adams sin was imputed to his w/o their actual disobedience, is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

Yes. . .all are born guilty of Adam's imputed sin before they are ever disobedient on their own, which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to disobey and, therefore, no disobedience/sin occurred to cause their deaths.

And that imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam was the pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 17) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).