Revelation … everything was written FOR the people living THEN?

[Arial]

Read the rest of the passage concerning the Passover First-fruits sheaf handful of barley in Leviticus 23:10-12. This First-fruits sheaf handful was to be offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish. Together, the He-Lamb and the sheaf handful composed the First-fruits offering in the temple. This represented a picture of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who would be raised on that same day. These all shared the title of the "First-fruits" at Passover.

None of that changes the fact that you have manufactured who the 144,000 of Rev 14. And in spite of the fact that Paul tells us who the firstfruits are. Those who have died in Christ before Jesus returns. Jesus is the firstfruits of all who will be raised from the dead, OT saints and NT saints. (1 Cor 15:20) And the persons as firstfruits is applied to those who have died before Christ returns who will be raised before those who remain alive are changed. And if the 144,000 of Rev 7 are the same as the great multitude (which makes sense as the number 12 in the Bible signifies God's power, authority, and completeness. A perfect governmental foundation. 12 tribes, 12 apostles etc)therefore the number of the people of God are too great to be counted; then the 144,000 in Rev 14 are the same 144,000.

Connecting Rev 14 to the firstfruits festival is over spiritualizing an historical event. Some things were types and shadows of Christ. Not everything. And anyway, the 144,000 firstfruits are not shadowed in the festival.

And you continue to mistake the timing of the Matthew 27:52-53 coming out of their graves and going into Jerusalem. The language of this verse does NOT say they were raised on the day of Christ's death.

It does say the tombs were opened. You are just choosing to interpret the language of what follows in a certain way, when there are other ways of seeing it. It presumes that if the tombs were opened and later after the resurrection they appeared to many, that they were raised from the grave when the tombs were opened, but what they preached would make no sense until Christ was raised. That being that there was a connection to their resurrection and what Jesus' resurrection was purchasing. Eternal life and resurrection from the dead.

This is important. It was on the day of Christ's resurrection and His ascension to the Father that same morning.

Christ did not ascend back to the Father until some forty days after the resurrection. I believe that is in all four gospels, at least some of those days being recorded.

The rising Christ led that "multitude of captives" out of the grave and gave them as "gifts to men" to serve in the early church for its edification, according to Ephesians 4:8-12.

I think you need to read the gospels again because it is you who have it wrong. I am out of time for now. WHen I come back before I look at the rest of your post, I will give a brief exegesis and exposition of Eph 4. The gospels you will have to do on your own.

 

[makesends]

Big difference......today we can actually do what Rev tells us will happen.
We pretty much have all the pieces....now we have to connect them. ..........Look Up!

And so they were saying when I was a child.

I am not denying the imminence of Christ's return. It may happen today; or he may come 200 years or a 1000 from now. While I understand the pressing need for holiness and "having oil in my lamp", it is from the perspective of fellowship and being In Him, and the understanding of a desperate horror of sin, vs the infinite purity of God —not from the understanding of the signs of his return. There is no more pressing need to be obedient and to 'walk with Him' now than there ever was before.

No. We don't have to connect them. We've done that before and gotten it wrong every time.

 

[CrowCross]

How do we KNOW an event we cannot even identify will "literally" happen? How can we KNOW it will be in the FUTURE?

Because prophey...is the future? At one time Isaiah 53 was prophecy.

We can very easily know Rev is prophecy because it contains things that haven't happened yet.

Hypothetically, if it is "angels" ... do angels "LITERALLY" fall from the sky to Earth?

You tell me. Jesus said He saw Satan fall.

I posit that it is ALL as metaphorical as the MAN with a head of gold and feet of clay in Daniel ... there was NEVER such a real person and there will never be such a real person ... it was SYMBOLIC and until one stops waiting for a literal man with a gold head and clay feet, the symbolism and the message will mean nothing.

??????? Nobody is waiting for a literal man with a head of gold and feet of clay.

 

[Arial]

The rising Christ led that "multitude of captives" out of the grave and gave them as "gifts to men" to serve in the early church for its edification, according to Ephesians 4:8-12.

Where do you get the idea from Eph 4 that Paul is referring to a hypothetical 144,000 who had their graves opened when Jesus died and who appeared to many after Christ's resurrection? This passage isn't even talking about his resurrection but his ascension which did not happen at the resurrection.

In Eph 4:1-7 Paul is urging his hearers to walk in a manner worthy of their calling as we are all body with the one same Spirit, one same hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. Grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. It is then that he says "Therefore it says, 'When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.'" This is an allusion to Ps 68 which celebrates God's triumphant march from Mt Sinai in the wilderness to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem and his enthronement there. Paul regards this as a prefiguring of Christ's victorious ascent into heaven.. There God receives gifts from men. There may be an associatiion here with Pentecost as that is the day the ascended Christ poured out the Spirit on the church.

And instead of receiving gifts from men, he gives gifts to men, to build up the church. He gave the gifts to men. He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the building up of the body of Christ. No where does it mention 144,00 already risen dead are given to teach and equip.

What was taken captive at the cross were the spiritual forces of darkness. That is what was defeated.

 

[CrowCross]

And so they were saying when I was a child.

I am not denying the imminence of Christ's return. It may happen today; or he may come 200 years or a 1000 from now. While I understand the pressing need for holiness and "having oil in my lamp", it is from the perspective of fellowship and being In Him, and the understanding of a desperate horror of sin, vs the infinite purity of God —not from the understanding of the signs of his return. There is no more pressing need to be obedient and to 'walk with Him' now than there ever was before.

No. We don't have to connect them. We've done that before and gotten it wrong every time.

And we will always get it wrong until we get it right.

The beast system is currently being established. Right now....as you read this message.

 

[Arial]

We can very easily know Rev is prophecy because it contains things that haven't happened yet.

Or you don't recognize the things that have happened for what they are.

 

[Arial]

Big difference......today we can actually do what Rev tells us will happen.
We pretty much have all the pieces....now we have to connect them. ..........Look Up!

Exactly what good is that going to do you. What benefit does it offer?

 

[atpollard]

We can very easily know Rev is prophecy because it contains things that haven't happened yet.

I think that may be "begging the question".

You tell me. Jesus said He saw Satan fall.

Was Jesus speaking literally, or metaphorically?
Jesus also talked about swallowing camels and having a "plank/beam" in your eye.

??????? Nobody is waiting for a literal man with a head of gold and feet of clay.

No, we are waiting for a city extending above the stratosphere to crash to the earth and literally squish the Middle East and Mediterranean Sea like a bug. It is the double standard that I am objecting to. Apply the same hermeneutic you freely apply to the man with the gold head and clay feet of the visions of Daniel, to the visions of John! That is what I was pointing to.

 

[Arial]

We see the picture of this "harvest" of the 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14 in Revelation 14:14-16. The newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud used that sickle to "reap the earth" of its dried harvest. That harvest was the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits saints, who were the same as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints. Christ raised them from their broken-open graves in Jerusalem on that same day that He arose and ascended to the Father to become our crowned Great High Priest in heaven.

You might want to start that sentence with "I". I see it as entirely concocted and manufactured and unbiblical and I have shown you a bit of that. Where else in Scripture do we see Jesus speaking of the harvest and harvesters? And what is the harvest in those incidences? Your way of reasoning is inconsistent.

Read this Scripture and compare it to what you said in the portion I put in bold:
Matt 27:50-53 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Then compare what you said about the 144,000 disconnectedly disconnecting them to Eph 4. And then what you said about them in Rev 14. You are changing your story all over the place.

But I have found that trying to have a discussion, an actual one, with those set in their ways on eschatological issues is futile. It is like trying to reason with a devout Catholic on the sufficiency of Christ or Sola scriptura, or the A'ist on the sovereignty of God. And notice I did not say, change their mind, I said reason with them. And have a discussion about it.

So before the rocks start to fly, I bid you a fond farewell.

 

[CrowCross]

Or you don't recognize the things that have happened for what they are.

I'm not following your line of thought...question???

 

[CrowCross]

Exactly what good is that going to do you. What benefit does it offer?

You can warn people. Show them Jesus is the way out.

 

[Josheb]

Let me clear up one false impression...Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal.

What, pray tell, do they teach is literal?

 

[Josheb]

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold.

When, exactly, will that happen? What do the words "about to unfold" mean?

 

[CrowCross]

I think that may be "begging the question".


Was Jesus speaking literally, or metaphorically?

Literally with elements of a metaphorical description.

Jesus also talked about swallowing camels and having a "plank/beam" in your eye.

He also walked on water and rose from the dead.

No, we are waiting for a city extending above the stratosphere to crash to the earth and literally squish the Middle East and Mediterranean Sea like a bug.

Yikes, you took a lot of liberty in that description.

It is the double standard that I am objecting to. Apply the same hermeneutic you freely apply to the man with the gold head and clay feet of the visions of Daniel, to the visions of John! That is what I was pointing to.

Sorry, still can't see what you're pointing at.

There are all kinds of possibilities....

Rev 8: 6And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

To date the above hasn't happened. Could it happen?

April 13, 2029....'God of Destruction' asteroid Apophis. (google it)

 

[CrowCross]

When, exactly, will that happen? What do the words "about to happen" mean?

It's happening right NOW. You can look the other way if you like.

 

[CrowCross]

What, pray tell, do they teach is literal?

Phew...wipes brow....if Rev is just a big metaphore...what's the problem?

 

[makesends]

And we will always get it wrong until we get it right.

The beast system is currently being established. Right now....as you read this message.

You may be right, though I very much doubt your reasoning. Your exuberance does you credit, though.

 

[Arial]

I'm not following your line of thought...question???

The answer to that question would be to look at the history of the church and the battles waging against her from the spiritual realm---as laid out in Revelation----from the time of the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ to this day. And imagine what is going on in the unseen realm---those we are given glimpses of in Revelation. Look there, and not at technology and for things falling from the sky.

 

[Josheb]

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold.

It's happening right NOW. You can look the other way if you like.

Which is it? Is it about to happen, or is it happening now?

How long does the tribulation last?

 

[makesends]

You can warn people. Show them Jesus is the way out.

Frankly, I see a certain value in that. I thank the Lord for everything he uses to bring people to himself, including this. That does not, however, justify it.

The bare bones of the Gospel includes awareness of, and salvation from, sin, and does not imply any time available to avoid repenting. Your eschatological sequences are not needed to induce urgency (even though they have been and will be effective in that).