Revelation … everything was written FOR the people living THEN?

[CrowCross]

You may be right, though I very much doubt your reasoning. Your exuberance does you credit, though.

Rev 13:5 is A.I.

And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

 

[Josheb]

Phew...wipes brow....if Rev is just a big metaphore...what's the problem?

That statement was, "Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal."

Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal.

The question to be answered is,

What do literalists teach?


.

 

[Arial]

Exactly what good is that going to do you. What benefit does it offer?

So---come to Christ so you can avoid the Tribulation? But you didn't answer the question of what benefit is it to you to see all the "signs"?

 

[CrowCross]

The answer to that question would be to look at the history of the church and the battles waging against her from the spiritual realm---as laid out in Revelation----from the time of the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ to this day. And imagine what is going on in the unseen realm---those we are given glimpses of in Revelation. Look there, and not at technology and for things falling from the sky.

We are currently using technology from the "unseen realm".

The problem is when people take Revelation and make it a metaphor....the metaphor can mean anything.

As I keep saying and will not stop saying....what we read in Revelation hasn't happened yet.
Secondly, you don't want to be here for the wrath.

 

[Arial]

@CrowCross

A hypothetical question. Suppose it came about that Christianity became outlawed worldwide including the US. All the churches were being set on fire on Sunday mornings with the congregants inside so we could not gather anymore. And suppose in order to get a job you had to denounce Christ and Christianity? What would you do?

Now, I realize none of us can actually know what we would do until and unless it happens, so I am asking this as a hypothetical, and I am asking for a reason. And it pertains to your expectation that you will never have to deal with something like that.

 

[CrowCross]

That statement was, "Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal."

​

​

​

The question to be answered is,

What do literalists teach?


.

Literalist teach what they have always taught. Jesus literally rose from the dead...it wasn't some metaphorical event. It really happened.

Sometimes the bible mentions a metaphore....then explains what the metaphore is.

The two witnesses are two real persons. The 1,000 year reigh of Christ is literal. The mark is literal.

 

[Josheb]

Nobody is waiting for a literal man with a head of gold and feet of clay.

Btw, and I say this in a sincere, goodwill effort to aid you.....

Nothing is proven when the most obvious examples of symbolism, metaphor, and/or figurative language is selected as evidence. It is correct to say nobody is waiting for a literal man with a literal head of literal gold and literal feet of literal clay. Because nobody is waiting for such a thing it is a very, very, very bad example to use.

Try this example instead:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The word "near" literally means near in space and/or time. That is the way you use the word when claiming the tribulation is near, or the rapture is near, or AI being the beast is near. Even thought it typically becomes impossible to get an explicit answer pertaining to exactly when, you use the word "near" to mean near in time or space quite often. The word "near" is used with its literal meaning, its normal meaning in ordinary usage, in those prognostications. Yet, for some unexplained reason, the "near" in Revelation 3 is read non-literally..... by a literalist. Claiming to be literalist and not reading scripture literally is hugely inconsistent. Living as if that is not the case is hugely delusional.


Nothing is gained with appeals to extremes. Pick something that can be read, exegetically speaking, literally.

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross

A hypothetical question. Suppose it came about that Christianity became outlawed worldwide including the US. All the churches were being set on fire on Sunday mornings with the congregants inside so we could not gather anymore. And suppose in order to get a job you had to denounce Christ and Christianity? What would you do?

Now, I realize none of us can actually know what we would do until and unless it happens, so I am asking this as a hypothetical, and I am asking for a reason. And it pertains to your expectation that you will never have to deal with something like that.

There's a good chance I would die.

The bible speaks of troubles arising in the end times...like a women in childbirth. (That's a metaphore expressing an actual event in case your wondering)

How much will christians have to endure prior to the rapture? Who knows. That may depend upon where you live. Those that become christians after the rapture...they will see terrible times such as the world has never seen before or will ever see again.

 

[Arial]

We are currently using technology from the "unseen realm".

Changes the subject. DOes not address the post.

The problem is when people take Revelation and make it a metaphor....the metaphor can mean anything.

That would be a problem. Who does that?

As I keep saying and will not stop saying....what we read in Revelation hasn't happened yet.

A great deal of it has and was happening at the time, and is happening now, or there would have been no purpose in John writing that letter to the seven churches, or for God giving it all generations in our canon. The war isn't over yet, it is ongoing, and will be until Christ returns.

Secondly, you don't want to be here for the wrath.

Both you and I and everyone since Adam, are living in the midst of God's wrath. The very creation is suffering from it. (Rom 8). That does not mean his wrath is directed at us, his children. Was God's wrath being flung at Polycarp when he was tied to the stake and the flames lit? Or any of the other martyrs?

 

[CrowCross]

Btw, and I say this in a sincere, goodwill effort to aid you.....

Nothing is proven when the most obvious examples of symbolism, metaphor, and/or figurative language is selected as evidence. It is correct to say nobody is waiting for a literal man with a literal head of literal gold and literal feet of literal clay. Because nobody is waiting for such a thing it is a very, very, very bad example to use.

For the most part those representations of the statue have come and gone. God was rather precise with Daniel when he gave that prophecy.
Will God be any less precise when the book of Revelation occurs?

Try this example instead:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The word "near" literally means near in space and/or time. That is the way you use the word when claiming the tribulation is near, or the rapture is near, or AI being the beast is near. Even thought it typically becomes impossible to get an explicit answer pertaining to exactly when, you use the word "near" to mean near in time or space quite often. The word "near" is used with its literal meaning, its normal meaning in ordinary usage, in those prognostications. Yet, for some unexplained reason, the "near" in Revelation 3 is read non-literally..... by a literalist. Claiming to be literalist and not reading scripture literally is hugely inconsistent. Living as if that is not the case is hugely delusional.


Nothing is gained with appeals to extremes. Pick something that can be read, exegetically speaking, literally.

The time is near....it has always been near. I have no problem using the word as written. "Near" has many nuances...but you only apply one of them.
We can now know that the nearness wasn't refering to the early church of the 1st century....because what is written in Revelations didn't occur....or, will you suggest God gave the wrong message to John?

 

[Arial]

There's a good chance I would die.

The bible speaks of troubles arising in the end times...like a women in childbirth. (That's a metaphore expressing an actual event in case your wondering)

How much will christians have to endure prior to the rapture? Who knows. That may depend upon where you live. Those that become christians after the rapture...they will see terrible times such as the world has never seen before or will ever see again.

What I am asking is are you prepared should it turn out you are wrong? And if you just come back with you are not wrong then you are living in the land of Denial. If it were not a mystery, there would not be so many different ways of taking the same thing, each supposedly supporting itself with the Bible. The very fact that Revelation is apocalyptic literature----unseen things revealed through symbolic images, makes it that way. The only thing that anyone can say with absoluteness is the purpose of the book. The same purpose as all the other books in the Bible. To strengthen, encourage, to stand our ground and keep our heads even when all about us are losing theirs. It grounds us when we see the governance and trustworthiness of God amidst the chaos, when it looks like there is no hope and there is no help, he shows us in Revelation that is not the case. The lion will lie down with the lamb, all tears will be wiped away, there will be no more death and destruction in all the earth, and he will dwell with us.

 

[CrowCross]

Changes the subject. DOes not address the post.

Chew on it. You mentioned "And imagine what is going on in the unseen realm".....Are you saying the heavenly beings don't have technology?

That would be a problem. Who does that?

Considering you don't take Revelation as literal....that would be, ah, er...you.

A great deal of it has and was happening at the time, and is happening now, or there would have been no purpose in John writing that letter to the seven churches, or for God giving it all generations in our canon. The war isn't over yet, it is ongoing, and will be until Christ returns.

True, the war isn't over....we can read about some of the war in Revelations.....7 Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, (This hasn't happened yet)

Both you and I and everyone since Adam, are living in the midst of God's wrath. The very creation is suffering from it. (Rom 8). That does not mean his wrath is directed at us, his children. Was God's wrath being flung at Polycarp when he was tied to the stake and the flames lit? Or any of the other martyrs?

Christians will face "wrath" as you like to describe it....but there will also be another wrath of the tribulation.

 

[Lees]

@atpollard

Why do you, or anyone for that matter, ignore my post #(42).

Did I quote Scripture correctly?

Can you answer the questions? Are they too difficult?

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

What I am asking is are you prepared should it turn out you are wrong? And if you just come back with you are not wrong then you are living in the land of Denial. If it were not a mystery, there would not be so many different ways of taking the same thing, each supposedly supporting itself with the Bible. The very fact that Revelation is apocalyptic literature----unseen things revealed through symbolic images, makes it that way. The only thing that anyone can say with absoluteness is the purpose of the book. The same purpose as all the other books in the Bible. To strengthen, encourage, to stand our ground and keep our heads even when all about us are losing theirs. It grounds us when we see the governance and trustworthiness of God amidst the chaos, when it looks like there is no hope and there is no help, he shows us in Revelation that is not the case. The lion will lie down with the lamb, all tears will be wiped away, there will be no more death and destruction in all the earth, and he will dwell with us.

No matter what happens I will be OK.
Jesus payed for all of His "sheep" with His death on the cross....Jesus washed them in His blood and gave all of them His righteousness.
Jesus is preparing a place for us in His Fathers house....just like the Jews did in the time of Jesus when one was getting married. Jesus said He will be back for us and take us there...That's the pre-trib rapture. Then the wedding feast...which will be literal.

Comfort yourself with those words.

 

[Josheb]

The time is near....it has always been near.

That is a self-contradictory statement.

And I still do not read an answer to my questions:

1. What do literalists teach?
2. When, exactly, will that happen? What do the words "about to happen" mean?
3. How do you reconcile the contradiction the tribulation is about to happen and already happening?
4. How long will the tribulation last?

Shall I expect answers to these questions or not?

 

[CrowCross]

That is a self-contradictory statement.

And I still do not read an answer to my questions:

1. What do literalists teach?

I don't know what the "literalist" teach...as I really don't understand what you mean by a literalist...but this poster means...it's near.
The question is...what does near mean in this instance? You seem to suggest it means tomorrow or with in a few years. We know that's not the correct nuance of the word because the events in Revelation haven't happened yet. They are still near.

1. When, exactly, will that happen? What do the words "about to happen" mean?

When will the tribulation begin? Is that what you're asking?

1. How do you reconcile the contradiction the tribulation is about to happen and already happening?

I see no contradiction. The problem is in your camp...if the tribulation was near when John wrote Revelation.....When did it happen? History seemed to have missed this earth shaking event.

1. How long will the tribulation last?

7 years.

Shall I expect answers to these questions or not?

You've been given answers for the last year.

Using your verbal demeaning style...should I ask...Shall I expect you to comprehend the answers or not?

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard

Why do you, or anyone for that matter, ignore my post #(42).

It seemed a disingenuous post rather than an honest question intended to prompt a discussion. You offered a “gotcha” and I didn’t want to engage in a mean-spirited tit-for-tat. [I apologize if that came across as unkind, you insisted on an answer and that is just an honest answer to the question of “why I did not respond to post #42”].

Did I quote Scripture correctly?

Yes.

Can you answer the questions? Are they too difficult?

They seemed more “rhetorical” than honest questions expecting an answer.
Let’s look at Post #42 …

(Rev. 1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy...."

(Rev. 22: 18) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book...."

(Rev. 22:19) "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy...."

I don’t know what I said that would lead you to believe that I reject any verses, including these. I am not advocating that Revelation is false, merely that it is metaphoric symbolism rather than literal reality. Daniel’s vision of a man with a gold head and clay feet was a TRUE PROPHECY without being a LITERAL DESCRIPTION of a man that would actually appear. Jesus with a sword sticking out of his mouth is a TRUE but metaphorical prophecy of the power of His Word without being a literal representation of risen Christ with an actual sword where his mouth should be.

Thus the Book of (Revelation) is a book of future prophecy. Is the 2nd Coming of Christ prophetic?

Yes.

Is the 2nd Coming of Christ literal?

Yes.

Or is it just symbolic?

No. However, the second coming IS represented symbolically in several places in Revelation (unless you think that Jesus will LITERALLY resemble a slain lamb and will have a sword in his mouth and must appear riding on a horse and have names written on his thighs).

Was the Cross symbolic also?

I do not see what this has to do with anything? It just feels like a snarky attack and was the primary reason I didn’t respond to your post. There is no cross mentioned in Revelation, so I do not see what that has to do with anything being discussed.

NOW MY TURN:

GIVEN: You believe that the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth is 100% literal.

AND: According to Revelation, the 1000 year kingdom is only possible because the DRAGON is chained in a pit by angels for 1000 years (before it is ultimately released to attack the Kingdom and be destroyed).

THEREFORE: Is there also a LITERAL Dragon held by LITERAL chains in a LITERAL pit?
If so, then WHERE is this literal pit?
If not, then why must there be a literal KINGDOM when only the chaining of the metaphorical DRAGON makes it possible? Why can both not be symbolic of something real but different?

 

[Josheb]

I don't know what the "literalist" teach...

Then how do you know what they do not teach?

Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal.

?????

When will the tribulation begin? Is that what you're asking?

Yes

7 years.

So, if the tribulation is happening right NOW, as is stated in Post #75, then it will all be over within seven years. More importantly, Post #44 states the rapture precedes the 7-year tribulation. If the tribulation has already begun and is happening right now, then the rapture must have already occurred and you, me, @3 Resurrections, @Arial, @atpollard, @Carbon, @Hazelelponi, @Lees, @makesends, @Marty, @Rella (and anyone else in this thread I might have left out) have all missed the rapture! .

You've been given answers for the last year.

We both, along with everyone else who discusses eschatology in this forum, know that is incorrect and there are many occasions when I have asked you questions and either never received an answer or had to ask the question(s) repeatedly to get an answer (as was the case here).



The op-relevant point is that the pre-tribulational rapture position presented in this thread is hugely problematic. It is both internally and externally self-contradictory, entirely speculative and, on this occasion, demonstrably false. It is impossible to say the rapture precedes the tribulation AND say the tribulation is happening now while still claiming to look forward to being raptured. AND..... this is another occasion when you've hijacked the op to impose your version of modern futurism. Mods, take note. This op is about the premise Revelation was written for the people living then (when the book was written in the first century).

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bondservants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

That is literally what the text states.

Revelation 1:17-19
When I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man. And he placed his right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

The text literally states John had already seen some of the events recorded in Revelation (they were not in our future). The text literally states some of the events were existing at the time when Jesus gave John the revelation (those events are not, therefore, in our future).

 

[Tambora]

The time is near....it has always been near.

That is a self-contradictory statement.

That's the thing about reading the literary style of scripture.
What seems contradictory to us today may not have been looked at that way in ancient times.
"The last shall be first, and the first shall be last" also seems contradictory.

 

[makesends]

That's the thing about reading the literary style of scripture.
What seems contradictory to us today may not have been looked at that way in ancient times.
"The last shall be first, and the first shall be last" also seems contradictory.

I think that @Josheb was referring to @CrowCross 's specific use of "near", according to the use CrowCross himself defined for it.