Revelation … everything was written FOR the people living THEN?

[Arial]

I listened to the video in its entirety. This pastor is definitely off track on his interpretation of the 144,000. He totally skipped over the fact that the 144,000 were called the "FIRST-FRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" in Revelation 14:4. In other words, there would be more fruits that would follow their number of 144,000, which means that they cannot possibly compose the whole of the church or the total number of God's people. They were only the FIRST, with others to follow.

Apologies to @atpollard for the video discussion interruption to your thread.

The pastor would only be off track if your version (or someone else's) is correct. It has been awhile since I watched the video so I don't know exactly how he said what he said or even everything he said. Being who he is, I am sure he gave some support for what he said as that is customary with him.

You have given no support for what you say. The Bible never says there were 144,000 raised from their graves when Jesus breathed his last. Only one of the gospels even mentions the event, which indicates it is not a central theme or relevant to anything else that follows. The Bible does clearly define "first fruits" as @Hazelelponi has shown. And the Bible never says those who came out of their graves at the crucifixion were the firstfruits. It says Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. The firstfruits of Rev 14:4 are the full number (represented by 144,000) of the saints who have fallen asleep when Christ returns. (See also 1 Thess 4:16-17)

 

[Lees]

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious. The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with. The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with. After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated). Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?

(Rev. 1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy...."

(Rev. 22: 18) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book...."

(Rev. 22:19) "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy...."

Thus the Book of (Revelation) is a book of future prophecy. Is the 2nd Coming of Christ prophetic? Is the 2nd Coming of Chrit literal? Or is it just symbolic?

Was the Cross symbolic also?

Lees

 

[atpollard]

From Oxford Reference (used to define 'apocalyptic literature'):

The word ‘apocalypse’ means a ‘revelation’ or ‘unveiling’, so an apocalyptic book claims to reveal things which are normally hidden or to reveal the future. The Jewish Apocalyptic books belong approximately to the period from 200 bc to ad 200 and deal with the end of the present order or with the next world.​

Apocalyptic literature proper begins with the Book of Daniel, probably written during the persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes (175–164 bc), though there are apocalyptic tendencies in some of the prophetic writings with their references to the approaching ‘day of the Lord’. The Apocalyptic writings are almost always pseudonymous and written in the names of Israel's past heroes. The Jewish Apocalyptic writings outside the OT include 1 and 2 Enoch, Baruch II, 4 Ezra (2 Esdras), the Assumption of Moses, Jubilees, the Ascension of Isaiah, and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. The main Christian Apocalypses are Revelation and the (non-canonical) Apocalypse of Peter.​

Let us compare the apocalyptic vision of John (Revelation) to the apocalyptic vision of Daniel. Where are those that demand the same hermeneutic and argue for a literal man with a head of gold and feet of iron and clay? Everyone is quick to recognize the "Son of Man" from Daniel as God (thus the Pharisees freak out at Jesus calling himself the 'Son of Man'), yet where are the LITERALISTS that argue that Jesus did EXACTLY and LITERALLY what Daniel described the Son of Man doing?

Yet so many insist that the apocalyptic Book of Revelation is a 'special snowflake' that must somehow be taken literally and not as a symbolic vision, because .... well, ultimately, JUST BECAUSE!

To them I ask: "Where on the LITERAL Earth is the LITERAL hole containing a LITERAL dragon bound with LITERAL chains?"
[I know, THAT PART IS NOT LITERAL! ... which is my point. You randomly choose to proclaim some parts of the vision LITERAL and other parts of the vision NOT LITERAL as it suits your predetermined goal. That is a rather self-serving hermeneutic. Why is that not applied to Daniel's vision? Perhaps the man with the gold head and clay feet will appear in the new Temple after the Dragon is released?

 

[CrowCross]

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious. The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with. The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with. After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated). Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?

The book of Revelations is future. What has been written by John has not happened yet. You wrote about the 4 horseman and tidied it up into a neat little package when you said....."The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with."...... Thing is, the verse speaks of a quarter of the world's population being destroyed by the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.......This hasn't happened nor has ever happened.

If you like we can move on to where a 1/3 of the trees are destroyed....an other event that hasn't happened as of yet....or a world wide mark of some sort required for the inhabitants of the planet to receive in order to buy and cell.

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold. And prior to the actual 7 year tribulation.....the rapture!!!

 

[CrowCross]

To them I ask: "Where on the LITERAL Earth is the LITERAL hole containing a LITERAL dragon bound with LITERAL chains?"

It's right there in a dimension connected to ours. Where exactly on the planet is this or these "portals"...I don't know.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You have given no support for what you say. The Bible never says there were 144,000 raised from their graves when Jesus breathed his last.

That is not what I wrote. The many Matthew 27:52-53 saints were resurrected and came out of their graves after Christ' resurrection - on that same day that "Christ the First-fruits" arose (these many saints being the 144,000 also called "First-fruits" who were "redeemed from the earth" standing together with the Lamb in Jerusalem on Mount Zion in Revelation 14:1).

Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not rise from those broken-open graves when Jesus died. That is not what scripture says. And I have given support for this group being the 144,000 First-fruits. Did you not read the Leviticus 23:10-11 Mosaic ritual at Passover which provided the symbolic picture of this "First-fruits" group being harvested along with Christ the First-fruits? The term "First-fruits" is not a single person. It's a group harvested during the same resurrection event.

Ephesians 4:8-12 also speaks of this "multitude of captives" which the resurrected Christ ascending on high was leading, and which He gave as gifts to men to serve in the early church as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. That "multitude of captives" was the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were operating within the early church. Paul also wrote in Romans 8:23 that the church still had the First-fruits among them at that time.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING”

This is an incorrect statement. The 144,000 First-fruits were specifically Jewish tribal members, as listed. There were no Gentiles among this ethnic group of 144,000 First-fruits Jewish tribal members. When it says that John "heard the number of them", that means the 144,000 is an exact, specific number. They were not the same as the unnumbered group in Revelation 7:9 coming from "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues", such as appears after John saw the 144,000. That unnumbered group was the next bodily resurrection event which was to include Jews and Gentiles without distinction.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

But this IS a correct statement. Because Revelation's revealed prophecies which were "at hand" for John's immediate audience were all about to be fulfilled in his own generation, as promised, we can rest assured that God is perfectly capable of taking care of any future threats that may arise for us. Revelation's fulfilled prophecies are a great faith booster for all believers.

 

[Arial]

That is not what I wrote. The many Matthew 27:52-53 saints were resurrected and came out of their graves after Christ' resurrection - on that same day that "Christ the First-fruits" arose (these many saints being the 144,000 also called "First-fruits" who were "redeemed from the earth" standing together with the Lamb in Jerusalem on Mount Zion in Revelation 14:1).

Matt 27:50-53 And Jesus creid out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

You are still saying there were 144,000 that came out of tombs on that day and at that time. The Bible does not say there were a 144,000 or anything else about them except that they appeared to many after the ascension.

Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not rise from those broken-open graves when Jesus died. That is not what scripture says.

That is just playing with words and splitting hairs. It still names the number as 144,000 and that is absolutely read into the scripture in order to fit a preconceived belief. It is a bucket full of holes that will not hold water.

And I have given support for this group being the 144,000 First-fruits. Did you not read the Leviticus 23:10-11 Mosaic ritual at Passover which provided the symbolic picture of this "First-fruits" group being harvested along with Christ the First-fruits?

Lev 23:10-11 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

How does that in any way shape or form support the 144,000 of Rev being those who came out of their tombs when Jesus cried out and yielded up his spirit? You are over spiritualizing historical accounts.

gotquestions.org/firstfruits-offering.html

The term "First-fruits" is not a single person. It's a group harvested during the same resurrection event.

Firstfruits in the OT were the first of the harvests. A thanksgiving offering for God's provision. As applied to Christ and believers, Christ is the first of the resurrected dead in him (which would discount the 144,000 of Rev being those whose tombs were broken open when he gave up his spirit unless you want to say that the dead bodies just lay in the open tombs for three days.) And though this an argument from silence, it would seem that this would be such a monumental and significant event that it would be a matter of discussion by the apostles, the number specified, and mentioned in every gospel account and by the apostles, every time they spoke of the resurrection of both Christ and the future resurrection of all the saints who have died before he returns. But it is a reasonable argument from silence, whereas your entire teaching is arrived from silence that has no merit except to fit what you have chosen to believe.

The firstfruits of Christ and those raised at his second coming before those who remain alive are changed, and all being caught up to meet him as he returns (1 Thess 4),are not a thanksgiving offering. They are the final harvest.

Ephesians 4:8-12 also speaks of this "multitude of captives" which the resurrected Christ ascending on high was leading, and which He gave as gifts to men to serve in the early church as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. That "multitude of captives" was the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were operating within the early church. Paul also wrote in Romans 8:23 that the church still had the First-fruits among them at that time.

You have absolutely no support for that. It is not in that Scripture and it is found nowhere else in the Bible. None and nowhere. It is conjecture based on a presupposition. Also known as eisegesis.

 

[atpollard]

The book of Revelations is future. What has been written by John has not happened yet. You wrote about the 4 horseman and tidied it up into a neat little package when you said....."The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with."...... Thing is, the verse speaks of a quarter of the world's population being destroyed by the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.......This hasn't happened nor has ever happened.

If you like we can move on to where a 1/3 of the trees are destroyed....an other event that hasn't happened as of yet....or a world wide mark of some sort required for the inhabitants of the planet to receive in order to buy and cell.

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold. And prior to the actual 7 year tribulation.....the rapture!!!

... unless the numbers are symbolic rather than literal (you know, like the SWORD sticking out of Jesus' mouth or the 4 corners of the Earth).

 

[Arial]

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold. And prior to the actual 7 year tribulation.....the rapture!!!

You need to state that as an opinion, not a fact that you do not support except with an opinion. The OP gives an entirely different opinion and it is not stated as a fact but as a different view. And the view comes from within the Bible, not outside of it, which is what you are giving as support for your opinion.

 

[CrowCross]

... unless the numbers are symbolic rather than literal (you know, like the SWORD sticking out of Jesus' mouth or the 4 corners of the Earth).

Let me clear up one false impression...Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal.
As with the four corners of the earth that's figurative. BUT, everything isn't symbolic.

There is instances where symbolism is used to show a literal event. Revelations speaks of "stars" falling from heaven unto earth. We all know that would be impossible with Alpha Centauri, Rigel, Sirius, Polaris to physically fall to earth....but one then has to ask what might this literal event be? Is it meterors John saw and called them stars? Is it satellites crashing to earth? Is it angelic beings? We don't know. But we do know Revelations says an even described as falling stars will literally happen one day in the future.

 

[CrowCross]

You need to state that as an opinion,

No, I believe I can state it as fact.

not a fact that you do not support except with an opinion. The OP gives an entirely different opinion and it is not stated as a fact but as a different view. And the view comes from within the Bible, not outside of it, which is what you are giving as support for your opinion.

 

[Arial]

No, I believe I can state it as fact.

I know that is what you believe and that is beside the point. When something is posted to you in red by staff, pay attention to it and do not argue about it. Just get on track. It is possible to even present your view that way and without making unproven and unsupported statements of fact. This OP is specific and so is probably not the place to do that so I would suggest you do do it in your own OP. But make sure that is what you are doing by supporting statements with support. And just quoting scriptures is not support. These scriptures must be letting scriptures support and interpret scriptures. We are trying to elevate this forum to a constructive and edifying place.

If we all learn to do this we will be greatly edifying ourselves as well as all on the forum. Something to think about.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That is just playing with words and splitting hairs.

??? I hope you would not also charge Paul with "splitting hairs" by maintaining a doctrine based on "Seed" versus "seeds"? We are to rightly divide the word of truth. That involves careful study of every word.

Lev 23:10-11 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

How does that in any way shape or form support the 144,000 of Rev being those who came out of their tombs when Jesus cried out and yielded up his spirit? You are over spiritualizing historical accounts.

Read the rest of the passage concerning the Passover First-fruits sheaf handful of barley in Leviticus 23:10-12. This First-fruits sheaf handful was to be offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish. Together, the He-Lamb and the sheaf handful composed the First-fruits offering in the temple. This represented a picture of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who would be raised on that same day. These all shared the title of the "First-fruits" at Passover.

And you continue to mistake the timing of the Matthew 27:52-53 coming out of their graves and going into Jerusalem. The language of this verse does NOT say they were raised on the day of Christ's death. This is important. It was on the day of Christ's resurrection and His ascension to the Father that same morning. The rising Christ led that "multitude of captives" out of the grave and gave them as "gifts to men" to serve in the early church for its edification, according to Ephesians 4:8-12.

We see the picture of this "harvest" of the 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14 in Revelation 14:14-16. The newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud used that sickle to "reap the earth" of its dried harvest. That harvest was the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits saints, who were the same as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints. Christ raised them from their broken-open graves in Jerusalem on that same day that He arose and ascended to the Father to become our crowned Great High Priest in heaven.

Firstfruits in the OT were the first of the harvests. A thanksgiving offering for God's provision. As applied to Christ and believers, Christ is the first of the resurrected dead in him (which would discount the 144,000 of Rev being those whose tombs were broken open when he gave up his spirit...

It's absolutely true that the First-fruits were the first group to be raised together in that "First resurrection" harvest of bodies out of the grave. We know that Christ was not unique in being the first to be bodily-resurrected, since there were others raised on an individual case-by-case basis to a glorified, resurrected state before Christ arose. But Christ was absolutely the first to ascend to the Father in a bodily-resurrected state. This gave Christ the unique title of being the "First-born" and the "First-begotten" to stand in God's presence in a glorified, incorruptible human body form. These unique titles of the "First-born" and the "First-begotten" are not the same as the title of the "First-fruits", which applied to both the resurrected Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints).

You have absolutely no support for that. It is not in that Scripture and it is found nowhere else in the Bible. None and nowhere. It is conjecture based on a presupposition. Also known as eisegesis.

I would not write that the Ephesians 4:8-12 "gifts" were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints if there were not scripture support for it. Read Hebrews 8:3. Speaking about Christ's role as our High Priest, it says, "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer." When God consecrated Christ as our Great High Priest that resurrection morning when He had first ascended to the Father, OF NECESSITY Christ the new Great High Priest had to offer gifts. Those "gifts to men" were the "multitude of captives" which He led out of the grave that day that He ascended - the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints who served in the early church as glorified apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

 

[Arial]

Let me clear up one false impression...Literalist don't teach everything in the book of Revelation is literal.
As with the four corners of the earth that's figurative. BUT, everything isn't symbolic.

There is instances where symbolism is used to show a literal event. Revelations speaks of "stars" falling from heaven unto earth. We all know that would be impossible with Alpha Centauri, Rigel, Sirius, Polaris to physically fall to earth....but one then has to ask what might this literal event be? Is it meterors John saw and called them stars? Is it satellites crashing to earth? Is it angelic beings? We don't know. But we do know Revelations says an even described as falling stars will literally happen one day in the future.

That is still being literal. Tying the symbol to a literal thing. And I might add, trying to penetrate the mind of John and then say what he really saw by looking at our world today. Rev 6:12-17 could just as easily, and I would go so far as to say likely, that it is depicting the truth that the whole created universe itself is experiencing God's judgment that is associated with Christ's second coming. Not prior to it. We do not need to look at the universe, technological advances and what not to try and identify symbolic images given in Revelation. We will know Jesus has returned when he returns. All creation will know it.

 

[Arial]

??? I hope you would not also charge Paul with "splitting hairs" by maintaining a doctrine based on "Seed" versus "seeds"? We are to rightly divide the word of truth. That involves careful study of every word.

What does one have to do with the other in this conversation other than to use it as a means of lifting up by putting down. The forum rules have been revised and refined. Read them.

 

[makesends]

When we look around...look at current events, science, religion, "peace", knowledge, computers...it becomes obvious the tribulation is about to unfold. And prior to the actual 7 year tribulation.....the rapture!!!

This was old news when I was born. As @Josheb has pointed out many many times, Dispensationalism has been wrong every time so far, on this reading the signs. Like the boy crying "Wolf!", the argument that it is "obvious the tribulation is about to unfold" just doesn't do it anymore.

(I hate politicians: They actually believe their own made-up numbers and narratives. I hate salesmen: The Latest Greatest thing just doesn't mean much anymore. I'm thinking of doing an etymology of "Dispensationalism" —something along the lines of "see='spy', & 'sensationalism'".)

 

[3 Resurrections]

What does one have to do with the other in this conversation other than to use it as a means of lifting up by putting down. The forum rules have been revised and refined. Read them.

Yes, I did go over the forum rules again. Not certain which of them you believe I am breaching. I am covering a point made in the original post @atpollard. I expressed agreement with them on the one hand that Revelation's first-century relevance to that generation's tribulations can also be used as an encouragement for us to remain faithful through present trials, but I also expressed disagreement that the 144,000 can be used as an example that is composed of every generation of believers. Scripture is very specific that these were a limited number of a very specific 144,000 number of Jewish tribal members. The pastor in the video link mentioned above is also incorrect on his application of the 144,000 as being composed of all the believers. Whenever John says, "I heard the number of them", he is recording a very exact numerical count, which can also have a symbolic meaning as well.

 

[CrowCross]

This was old news when I was born. As @Josheb has pointed out many many times, Dispensationalism has been wrong every time so far, on this reading the signs. Like the boy crying "Wolf!", the argument that it is "obvious the tribulation is about to unfold" just doesn't do it anymore.

Big difference......today we can actually do what Rev tells us will happen.
We pretty much have all the pieces....now we have to connect them. ..........Look Up!

 

[Arial]

Yes, I did go over the forum rules again. Not certain which of them you believe I am breaching. I am covering a point made in the original post @atpollard. I expressed agreement with them on the one hand that Revelation's first-century relevance to that generation's tribulations can also be used as an encouragement for us to remain faithful through present trials, but I also expressed disagreement that the 144,000 can be used as an example that is composed of every generation of believers. Scripture is very specific that these were a limited number of a very specific 144,000 number of Jewish tribal members. The pastor in the video link mentioned above is also incorrect on his application of the 144,000 as being composed of all the believers. Whenever John says, "I heard the number of them", he is recording a very exact numerical count, which can also have a symbolic meaning as well.

That is not what I quoted and is not what I was referring to.

 

[atpollard]

There is instances where symbolism is used to show a literal event. Revelations speaks of "stars" falling from heaven unto earth. We all know that would be impossible with Alpha Centauri, Rigel, Sirius, Polaris to physically fall to earth....but one then has to ask what might this literal event be? Is it meterors John saw and called them stars? Is it satellites crashing to earth? Is it angelic beings? We don't know. But we do know Revelations says an even described as falling stars will literally happen one day in the future.

How do we KNOW an event we cannot even identify will "literally" happen? How can we KNOW it will be in the FUTURE?
Hypothetically, if it is "angels" ... do angels "LITERALLY" fall from the sky to Earth?

I posit that it is ALL as metaphorical as the MAN with a head of gold and feet of clay in Daniel ... there was NEVER such a real person and there will never be such a real person ... it was SYMBOLIC and until one stops waiting for a literal man with a gold head and clay feet, the symbolism and the message will mean nothing.