Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

[Arial]

Or did he clearly express the desire of his own will, and then submit his will to the Father's.
The language of the text is clear.

Well, once you hit a brick wall, all that is left is hissing and spitting.

 

[Eleanor]

Well, once you hit a brick wall, all that is left is hissing and spitting.

The brick wall being the text of Scripture.

Relevance?

 

[Arial]

In your opinion/ belief...

No, according to the whole counsel of God. If Jesus and the Father are One as Jesus says, then they are always in agreement, and if they are always in agreement, they always have the same will. To say otherwise is to divide the Trinity. Jesus did not lose His position as the second person of the Trinity in His incarnation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Guilt by association?

You may well believe that you don't agree. I'm not questioning such. However, I am indicating that such arguments, if true, prove that Jesus isn't Divine.

Obviously, I believe they are not true.

 

[Arial]

The brick wall being the text of Scripture.

Relevance?

The text of scripture is never a brick wall. It is people's interpretations of said scripture that become a wall so wide and high nothing can penetrate it.

Relevance? I trust you have figured it out just fine.

 

[Ritajanice]

No, according to the whole counsel of God. If Jesus and the Father are One as Jesus says, then they are always in agreement, and if they are always in agreement, they always have the same will. To say otherwise is to divide the Trinity. Jesus did not lose His position as the second person of the Trinity in His incarnation.

I’ve already explained...in the garden of Gethsemane.....he was not in agreement....I too am going by what I understand the word of God to mean... and NO he didn’t have the same will as the Father in the garden.....I am now exiting this thread....no point in going round and round the mulberry bush....and God doesn’t force....his word will become clear to me, in his timing....I wait on him..and he NEVER forces his will onto me...or his word..unlike some humans...not a good trait....forcing someone to believe what they believe is NOT from God....

 

[Arial]

The text of scripture is never a brick wall. It is people's interpretations of said scripture that become a wall so wide and high nothing can penetrate it.

Relevance? I trust you have figured it out just fine.

@Eleanor See post #268

 

[Arial]

I’ve already explained...in the garden of Gethsemane.....he was not in agreement....I too am going by what I understand the word of God to mean... and NO he didn’t have the same will as the Father in the garden.....I am now exiting this thread....no point in going round and round the mulberry bush....and God doesn’t force....his word will become clear to me, in his timing....I wait on him..and he NEVER forces his will onto me...or his word..unlike some humans...not a good trait.

So----nothing to learn here?

 

[Ritajanice]

Thank you @Eleanor ..your posts helped me understand...so I thank the Lord for that...I understand what you were saying through the Spirit, only God can speak to our hearts through the Spirit ,that is my opinion and belief...

 

[Eleanor]

The text of scripture is never a brick wall. It is people's interpretations of said scripture that become a wall so wide and high nothing can penetrate it.

Jn 3:18 is a brick wall.
Jn 3:36 is a brick wall.
Eph 2:8-9 is a brick wall.
Ro 3:28 is a brick wall, etc.

Relevance? I trust you have figured it out just fine.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jn 3:18 is a brick wall.
Jn 3:36 is a brick wall.
Eph 2:8-9 is a brick wall.
Ro 3:28 is a brick wall, etc.

We can all except the extant Scriptural witness. However, we can't deny that "Perspective" is key in this discussion. You can read those verses and give your perception. I can do the same.

However, what we have here is an issue of how to apply what we read. There is no indication of the Son having a contrary will to the Father. However, you insist that is true.

Let me provide a "brick wall" that says otherwise.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Notice the word "ALWAYS".

 

[Ritajanice]

John 5:30-47

John 5:30-47 KJV​

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[praise_yeshua]

John 5:30-47

John 5:30-47 KJV​

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Where in those verses do you see a contrary will to the Father?

 

[Ritajanice]

I seek not my own will but the will of the Father @Eleanor ?...in the scripture above I posted....

So, he is saying he is seeking the will of the Father?

Not that his will is in line with the Fathers?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

There is no submission here. His will and the Father are One. Perfect and always in Union. The Incarnation didn't change that.

I realize that I'm saying things contrary to what you've been told.

It is clear from the Scriptures that Jesus hated the shame that the cross would bring Him. However, this wasn't something NEW to Jesus. He knew it before He ever came into this world. He was suffering at that moment from the shame. He was expressing Unity with the Father. Not expressing His own WILL to NOT suffer.

Matthew 26:39
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

 

[Eleanor]

He was showing human awareness of alternatives, so I'd say that is revealing His humanity, at least that is my opinion on that situation.

Of course you aren't saying that was his intent in his prayer--to show human awareness of alternatives and reveal his humanity, but his intent was that if there were another way to get it done, he chooses the other way, but always in submission to the will of the Father, right?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Matthew 26:39
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

This isn't an indication of a contrary will. It is an agreement of wills. Jesus is indicating that His will is the same will as the Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

--
Of course you aren't saying that was his intent in his prayer--to show human awareness of alternatives and reveal his humanity, but his intent was that if there were another way to get it done, he chooses the other way, but always in submission to the will of the Father, right?

There was no need for submission. Submission implies resistance.

English definition of "submit"... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person.

You are presenting the Father as a superior force.

 

[Eleanor]

We can all except the extant Scriptural witness. However, we can't deny that "Perspective" is key in this discussion. You can read those verses and give your perception. I can do the same.

If you are thinking there is more than one way to understand those verses, we aren't on the same page.

However, what we have here is an issue of how to apply what we read. There is no indication of the Son having a contrary will to the Father. However, you insist that is true.

Let me provide a "brick wall" that says otherwise.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Notice the word "ALWAYS".

And there you have it not my will, but thine be done.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

This isn't an indication of a contrary will. It is an agreement of wills. Jesus is indicating that His will is the same will as the Father.

You could stare at that for a thousand years and not come up with your statement here. Jesus knows what's coming. He asks, if it is possible, that that fate pass from Him. He "wills" to avoid it by the Father's will *but* He places the Father's will above His own.

I won't even attempt to wrap my head around that...but the words say what they say.