Psalm 72 - The Kingdom of God Soon to be Established on Earth

[TrevorL]

Psalm 72 - The Kingdom of God Soon to be Established on Earth

Psalm 72 (KJV - with headings added)
A Psalm for Solomon

The King's Son
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

The Blessings of His Reign
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

A World-Wide Kingdom
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

The Nations Pay Homage
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

The Earth Bountiful
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

The Whole World Filled with His Glory
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Psalm 72 is another clear evidence that the Scriptures teach that the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth at the return of Jesus. This final public prayer of David, although addressed to Solomon, looks beyond his time to the greater son of David, Jesus Christ, who will return to establish his Kingdom on earth, replacing the present kingdoms of men Daniel 2:44. Luke records the words that Gabriel spoke to Mary concerning Jesus' future rule
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Jesus will reign over the "house of Jacob" when he returns and "turns away ungodliness from Jacob" Romans 11:26.

The promises made to David concerning his son and David's throne are recorded in 2 Samuel 7:12-16. They state also that God would be his Father, and this is shown in its fulfillment in Luke 1:35, Jesus is the Son of God. This is the qualification for Jesus to be heir over God's dominion, God's kingdom, not only because he is God's Son by birth, but he revealed all the qualities of God's character, wisdom and love during his ministry, suffering and crucifixion. These qualities now coupled with all that he has received in his resurrection and exaltation are what is needed to fulfill Psalm 72 in the Kingdom of God, soon to be established upon the earth Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8:6, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Matthew 11:25-30, 21:37-38, 42-44, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marilyn C]

Psalm 72 - The Kingdom of God Soon to be Established on Earth

Psalm 72 (KJV - with headings added)
A Psalm for Solomon

The King's Son
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

The Blessings of His Reign
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

A World-Wide Kingdom
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

The Nations Pay Homage
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

The Earth Bountiful
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

The Whole World Filled with His Glory
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Psalm 72 is another clear evidence that the Scriptures teach that the Kingdom of God will be established upon the earth at the return of Jesus. This final public prayer of David, although addressed to Solomon, looks beyond his time to the greater son of David, Jesus Christ, who will return to establish his Kingdom on earth, replacing the present kingdoms of men Daniel 2:44. Luke records the words that Gabriel spoke to Mary concerning Jesus' future rule
Luke 1:32-33 (KJV): 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Jesus will reign over the "house of Jacob" when he returns and "turns away ungodliness from Jacob" Romans 11:26.

The promises made to David concerning his son and David's throne are recorded in 2 Samuel 7:12-16. They state also that God would be his Father, and this is shown in its fulfillment in Luke 1:35, Jesus is the Son of God. This is the qualification for Jesus to be heir over God's dominion, God's kingdom, not only because he is God's Son by birth, but he revealed all the qualities of God's character, wisdom and love during his ministry, suffering and crucifixion. These qualities now coupled with all that he has received in his resurrection and exaltation are what is needed to fulfill Psalm 72 in the Kingdom of God, soon to be established upon the earth Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8:6, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Matthew 11:25-30, 21:37-38, 42-44, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms. Thank you for showing that one. Yes, the Lord will have His rulership over Israel in the millennium and on to the new earth. The Lord is already King, King of Glory, King of Heaven, King of the Ages and King of Israel. He will put down all rule and authority and power in the trib, and then rule over the nations. (Rev. 11: 15)

We need to remember that God created the whole world and all its fullness and never gave it away. (Ps. 24: 1) However, He is dealing with rebellious rulership a step at a time. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

We also need to take note in God`s word that the Lord will rule from the highest, the third heaven, (Ps. 2: 6, Eph. 1: 20 - 22), Rev. 3: 21) and it will be through a regent king David and priests that the Lord will rule. (Jer. 30: 9, Isa. 66: 21)

After the Lord and His angelic army have dealt with the world`s armies and the Lord judges who will go into His kingdom rule through Israel in the millennium, He will return on high. (Ps. 47: 5)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Marilyn C,

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms. Thank you for showing that one.

I appreciate your response. I noticed another thread "The Kingdom of God on Earth in Jerusalem" and you participated. There is quite a range of opinion on that thread. My initial assessment is that I agree with some of your detail and disagree with a number of your comments both here and in that thread. I will need to consider the other thread in more detail some time next week so that we do not repeat much from that thread. I hope you are patient with what seems one of your favourite subjects with much detail worked out.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marilyn C]

Greetings Marilyn C,

I appreciate your response. I noticed another thread "The Kingdom of God on Earth in Jerusalem" and you participated. There is quite a range of opinion on that thread. My initial assessment is that I agree with some of your detail and disagree with a number of your comments both here and in that thread. I will need to consider the other thread in more detail some time next week so that we do not repeat much from that thread. I hope you are patient with what seems one of your favourite subjects with much detail worked out.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are very observant. Yes, take your time as I do love to look at what God`s word says in great detail. And you are right it is one of my favourite subjects or rather one that I see people have some errors in. It is most needed to bring the Body of Christ to full maturity in Christ. (Eph. 4: 13)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Marilyn C,

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms.

I have had time to briefly read through the other thread, and at first I thought I could answer a significant portion of this, but found that there were too many divergent views. I noticed in Post #5 you listed three different categories, and to some extent you then defended this position. In your reply on this thread some of this also appears. I will not directly answer each portion of your views, but content to state my own view which is in disagreement with some portions of your position. Briefly for example, I do not believe that the faithful will be in heaven.

I believe that Jesus will soon return to the earth. He will gather to himself both the living and dead faithful, and some of the living and dead unfaithful. He will judge all of these and reward the faithful with everlasting life and invite them to participate in establishing the Kingdom of God upon the earth. The unfaithful will be rejected at the judgement seat and will be cast out, and after some time will die and return to the dust.

Jesus and the faithful will deliver natural Israel from the Northern Invader of Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45, which I believe will be Russia and their confederacy, and then convert this remnant of natural Israel, as mortals, and they will become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God. The nations will be called upon to submit and some will comply and others resist. Eventually all the nations except those that stubbornly resist will also become part of the mortal nations in the Kingdom of God.

This Kingdom will last for the 1000 years, and will be centred in Jerusalem, with our Lord Jesus Christ reigning as King / Priest upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem, with the faithful as kings/priests to Israel and the nations. One of my key passages is Isaiah 2:1-4, and Micah 4:1-8 could also be considered giving additional detail concerning the position of Israel and also the whole of Zechariah 14.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I suggest that this gives a picture of the transition period some time after the Battle of Armageddon and immediately before and after the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, centred in Jerusalem, with the Temple of the Age to Come built and occupied by Jesus and the faithful.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms. . .

And prophecies being given figuratively (spoken in hidden meanings, not clearly, Nu 12:8), we have Jesus' own words regarding that kingdom:

It is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33),
it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),
it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

It being everlasting (Lk 1:33), there is no other kingdom of God.

 

[Marilyn C]

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms. . .

And prophecies being given figuratively (spoken in hidden meanings, not clearly, Nu 12:8), we have Jesus' own words regarding that kingdom:

It is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33),
it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),
it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

It being everlasting (Lk 1:33), there is no other kingdom of God.

`The earth is the Lord`s, and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

We see there Eleanor that God made the world and we know He never gave it away. God also made the heavens.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities and powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

We also know that the Lord will put down all rule and authority and power. (1 Cor. 15: 24) And His throne is in the highest in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21)

The scriptures you have quoted are as you say to do with Christ ruling in the hearts of people. The Lord said this when He was manifest on earth for He had not yet died, risen and then ascended to the Father. We know the Lord Jesus Christ is now seated at the Father`s right hand, however one day soon He will be given His own throne, (authority) and He will not only rule in people`s hearts but also physically over the kingdoms of this world.

`The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever.` (Rev. 11: 15)

God`s great kingdom includes heaven and earth. It is spiritual and physical.

As to `it is not of this world,` (Mt. 18: 36) Jesus was referring to His authority to rule. That comes not from any person on this earth but from the Father. (Ps. 2: 6)

We need to read all of scripture on this important subject.

 

[Eleanor]

`The earth is the Lord`s, and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.` (Ps. 24: 1)

We see there Eleanor that God made the world and we know He never gave it away. God also made the heavens.

Don't know what "never gave it away" refers to.

The scriptures you have quoted are as you say to do with Christ ruling in the hearts of people.

Actually, what I said was that Jesus states
that the kingdom of God it is not future, it is now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),
that it is not earthly, of this world (Mt 18:36), it is spiritual, hidden and within Lk 17:20-21),
that it is not temporal, but everlasting (Lk 1:33).

It goes without saying that being everlasting, there is no other kingdom of God either in time or eternity.
This erroneous notion is both derived from literal interpretation of figurative prophetic [Uriddles[/U], and
contradicts NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Eleanor,

Such wonderful prophecies in the Psalms. . .
And prophecies being given figuratively (spoken in hidden meanings, not clearly, Nu 12:8),

I consider that @Marilyn C has answered some aspects, but I may disagree with her on a few minor details. I was interested in your use of "figuratively" which you explain as "hidden meanings". My position is that I consider many of the prophecies as literal, with possibly some figurative details, but still basically literal.

Your statement concerning "figuratively" also reminds me of Gibbons' assessment of the change that occurred in the early Centuries after Christ and please notice his use of the word "allegory":
“The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium,” says Gibbon, “was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of creation had been finished in six days, their duration, in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed (as they supposed), would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the Saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection. So pleasing was this hope to the minds of believers, that the New Jerusalem, the seat of this blissful kingdom, was quickly adorned with all the gayest colors of the imagination. A felicity consisting only of pure and spiritual pleasure would have appeared too refined for its inhabitants, who were still supposed to possess their human nature and senses. A garden of Eden with the amusements of pastoral life, was no longer suited to the advanced state of society which prevailed under the Roman Empire. A city was therefore erected, of gold and precious stones, and a supernatural plenty of corn and wine was bestowed on the adjacent territory; in the free enjoyment of whose spontaneous productions, the happy and benevolent people was never to be restrained by any jealous laws of exclusive property. The assurance of such a millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers, from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles, down to Lactantius, who was preceptor to the son of Constantine. Though it might not be universally received, it appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers; and it seems so well adapted to the desires and apprehensions of mankind, that it must have contributed in a very considerable degree to the progress of the Christian faith. But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ’s reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism. A mysterious prophecy (the Apocalypse) which still forms a part of the sacred canon, but which was thought to favor the exploded sentiment, has very narrowly escaped the proscription of THE CHURCH.”

I also find it interesting that you quote various verses coupled with a brief statement and expect us to accept these verses to prove your own beliefs and that these verses disagree with our view.

Actually, what I said was that Jesus states
that the kingdom of God it is not future, it is now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),

Luke 11:20 (KJV): But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Matthew 12:28 (KJV): But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Jesus is the King of the Kingdom, he is the great archetype, the Chief Cornerstone of the Spiritual House. The miracles that he performed were what will be much more evident when Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdom. The miracles that Jesus performed were a token of the future Kingdom Isaiah 35, and especially Isaiah 35:5-6
Isaiah 35:5–6 (KJV): 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Jesus sent the Messengers back to John the Baptist alluding to these verses. not to teach that the Kingdom had been established then and there, but to encourage him, and hence that the suffering would have to come first, but the future Kingdom was assured.

it is everlasting (Lk 1:33),

The OT and NT words translated "everlasting" speak of a period of time, where the beginning and conclusion are not specified, rather than everlasting.

it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),

I assume that you meant John 18:36:
John 18:36 (KJV): Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus is saying the Jesus' Kingdom would not be derived from the present Jewish World, or Order of Things. He was not speaking about the Planet, Earth. It is the Kingdom of Heaven, from Heaven, not in Heaven. It will replace the present kingdoms of men.
Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The kings mentioned are the ten subdivisions of the Roman Empire after the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (refer Gibbon).

it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

Yes, Jesus as our Lord must reign in our hearts, but this does not exclude Daniel 2:35,44.

It goes without saying that being everlasting, there is no other kingdom of God either in time or eternity. This erroneous notion is both derived from literal interpretation of figurative prophetic riddles, and contradicts NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

I could quote a number of NT passages, but how do you understand the following?
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings Eleanor,

I consider that @Marilyn C has answered some aspects, but I may disagree with her on a few minor details. I was interested in your use of "figuratively" which you explain as "hidden meanings".

Thanks.
It is not my explanation, it is God's own description of the nature of his prophecy as he states it to Aaron and MIriam. God's own words are that he gives prophecy in "dark sayings" (hidden meanings) and not "clearly" (Nu 12:1-8).

My position is that I consider many of the prophecies as literal, with possibly some figurative details, but still basically literal.

I see that as not in agreement with God's own description of his prophecies.

Your statement concerning "figuratively" also reminds me of Gibbons' assessment of the change that occurred in the early Centuries after Christ and please notice his use of the word "allegory":
“. . .By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed (as they supposed), would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the Saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection. So pleasing was this hope to the minds of believers,

On this Gibbon and I agree.

The doctrine of Christ’s reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism. A mysterious prophecy (the Apocalypse) which still forms a part of the sacred canon, but which was thought to favor the exploded sentiment, has very narrowly escaped the proscription of THE CHURCH.”

But not to worry.
The doctrine of a literal millennium has been improved in the last 200 years with a new doctrine of dispensationalism, another doctrine of man
(of his own invention that he is so fond of and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy),
nowhere found in the word of God, and contradictory to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

I also find it interesting that you quote various verses coupled with a brief statement and expect us to accept these verses to prove your own beliefs and that these verses disagree with our view.

The verses speaking for themselves, and the principle being that NT apostolic teaching is authoritative to the church, and all interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) in disagreement with apostolic teaching is erroneous.
Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error of these verse.

Luke 11:20 (KJV): But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt [the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Matthew 12:28 (KJV): But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Jesus is the King of the Kingdom, he is the great archetype, the Chief Cornerstone of the Spiritual House. The miracles that he performed were what will be much more evident when Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdom.

"No doubt" not being in the text.

The miracles that Jesus performed were a token of the future Kingdom Isaiah 35, and especially Isaiah 35:5-6

However, that interpretation of the prophetic riddle ("dark saying," hidden meaning) of Isa 35, which is not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), contradicts the fulfilled prophecy of Dan 2:44-45, where
"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21); i.e.,
at the first coming of Christ, the Messianic kingdom was set up, a kingdom that endures forever (Da 2:44), and
corresponding to NT apostolic teaching in Jesus' words that
the kingdom of God is not future, it is now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),
it is not earthly, it ia not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is spiritual (rather than heavenly), hidden and within Lk 17:20-21), and
it is not temporal, but everlasting (Lk 1:33).

Isaiah 35:5–6 (KJV): 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Jesus sent the Messengers back to John the Baptist alluding to these verses. not to teach that the Kingdom had been established then and there, but to encourage him, and hence that the suffering would have to come first, but the future Kingdom was assured.

Not according to what Jesus said regarding the forever enduring kingdom (Da 2:44) being now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28).

The OT and NT words translated "everlasting" speak of a period of time, where the beginning and conclusion are not specified, rather than everlasting.

Nevertheless, the kingdom of God "endures forever" (Da 2:44).

I assume that you meant John 18:36:
John 18:36 (KJV): Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus is saying the Jesus' Kingdom would not be derived from the present Jewish World, or Order of Things. He was not speaking about the Planet, Earth. It is the Kingdom of Heaven, from Heaven, not in Heaven. It will replace the present kingdoms of men.

Jesus said his kingdom was spiritual, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:38).

Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The kings mentioned are the ten subdivisions of the Roman Empire after the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (refer Gibbon).

Not according to Da 2:19, 23 where God told Daniel the statue was four kingdoms, Babylonia (Da 2:48), Medo-Persia (Da 8:20), Greece (Dal 8:21) and Rome, (which conquered the Greek empire, Da 2:39, 8:21), not five kingdoms, where the feet and toes (Da 2:41-43) of the statue are separate from the statue and being a separate fifth kingdom or kingdoms.

Yes, Jesus as our Lord must reign in our hearts, but this does not exclude Daniel 2:35,44.

Keeping in mind, that Da 2:35, 44 specifically occurs "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire which conquered the Greek empire in 63 BC.

I could quote a number of NT passages, but how do you understand the following?
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I assume you are referring to "his appearing."
That refers to his second coming, resurrection and rapture at the end of time.
And again, in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church,

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jo 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence:
the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)
(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

 

[Eleanor]

The "fifth" kingdom of Da 2:44-45 is the eternal spiritual kingdom of Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28, which is here now.
Apostolic teaching presents no other kingdom of God.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So in terms of the time of their occurrence:
the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)
(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Where is the proof in scripture that there was going to be one and ONLY ONE resurrection of ALL mankind simultaneously?

The "fifth" kingdom of Da 2:44-45 is the eternal spiritual kingdom of Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28, which is here now.
Apostolic teaching presents no other kingdom of God.

That blend of "iron and miry clay" in the feet and toes of Daniel's image was the independent nation of Israel being blended with the (4th) Roman empire, which element of iron extended from the legs down through the feet and toes. The point when the iron and clay blended together happened under Pompey in 63 BC, when the nation of Israel lost its independent status which had been established by the Maccabees' victories for almost 80 years, and was put under tribute to Rome. This was an uneasy blend of Israelite and Roman powers that never blended together well, and broke out in flaming revolt by the Zealots in AD 66.

The prophet Isaiah once said of his own people, "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." (Isaiah 64:8).

But I do agree that the kingdom of God is presently in place. The Apostle Peter said so on the day of Pentecost; that Christ had been established upon the throne of David already at that point (Acts 2:29-36). We aren't waiting for this; it is a present reality. That entire statue has been crushed into dust blowing on the wind already, and the stone kingdom is presently growing and will fill the whole earth with its effects.

 

[Eleanor]

Where is the proof in scripture that there was going to be one and ONLY ONE resurrection of ALL mankind simultaneously?

The NT allows no time for any other in the following NT teaching:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Jesus teaches one resurrection, in the last day, and the NT locks up the rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind) with that resurrection, therefore, all mankind must be present at that one resurrection.
To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT teaching authoritative to the church.
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church allows for only one resurrection at the end of time.

That blend of "iron and miry clay" in the feet and toes of Daniel's image was the independent nation of Israel being blended with the (4th) Roman empire, which element of iron extended from the legs down through the feet and toes. The point when the iron and clay blended together happened under Pompey in 63 BC, when the nation of Israel lost its independent status which had been established by the Maccabees' victories for almost 80 years, and was put under tribute to Rome. This was an uneasy blend of Israelite and Roman powers that never blended together well, and broke out in flaming revolt by the Zealots in AD 66.

The ten toes would include all the kingdoms into which Rome was divided.

The prophet Isaiah once said of his own people, "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." (Isaiah 64:8).

But I do agree that the kingdom of God is presently in place. The Apostle Peter said so on the day of Pentecost; that Christ had been established upon the throne of David already at that point (Acts 2:29-36). We aren't waiting for this; it is a present reality. That entire statue has been crushed into dust blowing on the wind already, and the stone kingdom is presently growing and will fill the whole earth with its effects.

And that is my point.
Likewise, we have no Biblical warrant for any other kingdom of God than the one in place now and for all eternity.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church allows for only one resurrection at the end of time.

There is no "end of time" in any apostolic teaching in the scriptures. There is a "time of the end" presented in scripture, but no "end of time" when the clock stops ticking.

The question would then be, "What particular "end" is this referring to? The Apostle Peter once wrote in 1 Peter 4:7 that "the end of all things is at hand", meaning an end which had arrived for those with Peter's perspective on the timeline. And of course, history has been marching forward since that time in Peter's day. So obviously Peter wasn't referring to any mythical "end of time" when he wrote that verse.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

The resurrection in "the last day" of what period? The presumption is that this is at the end of the world's existence. It's not. It was the "last day" of "the end of all things" which Peter said was presently at hand in his days. John carried that sense of imminence even further when he announced that it was the "last HOUR" in 1 John 2:18.

But I agree that the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 catching up of the resurrected saints was to take place at the second coming, which was also connected to the time for the judgment of the sheep and the goats. But these things are not for our future. They were in the near future for the first-century generation, and are events that have come and gone long ago.

The problem is that the presumption has usually been that there is one and ONLY ONE resurrection and judgment. Scripture presents a THIRD coming of Christ - not just a second coming. And that first-century resurrection / second coming / rapture / judgment of sheep and goats is ancient history by now. What we are currently waiting for is the third final resurrection event with yet another judgment of sheep and goats.

Likewise, we have no Biblical warrant for any other kingdom of God than the one in place now and for all eternity.

That's very true.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

It is not my explanation, it is God's own description of the nature of his prophecy as he states it to Aaron and MIriam. God's own words are that he gives prophecy in "dark sayings" (hidden meanings) and not "clearly" (Nu 12:1-8).
I see that as not in agreement with God's own description of his prophecies.

Yes, some prophecies are hidden, but even though Nebuchadnezzar and his various "wise men" could not solve the vision, the vision was revealed to Daniel and Daniel was able to disclose this to Nebuchadnezzar and we can share what Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar.
Daniel 2:19–23,26-30 (KJV): 19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. 20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: 22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. 23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king’s matter.
26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? 27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; 29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. 30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

I suggest that we do not need to wait until we get a direct revelation to us from God to understand many prophecies. For example we can compare Daniel 2 with Daniel 7. I would be interested if you consider the visions of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are to some extent parallel and each one giving additional or different detail.

However, that interpretation of the prophetic riddle ("dark saying," hidden meaning) of Isa 35, which is not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), contradicts the fulfilled prophecy of Dan 2:44-45, where "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21); i.e.,
at the first coming of Christ, the Messianic kingdom was set up, a kingdom that endures forever (Da 2:44)

I consider "in the time of those kings" is referring to the ten toes of the image, which in a sense are still Roman, but came well after the time of Jesus. They are also parallel to the ten horns of Daniel 7:
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7:19–22 (KJV): 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How do you apply the additional details given in Daniel 7. I understand the little horn as the Papacy who persecuted the faithful for 1260 years, from AD 529 to AD 1789 and AD 610 to AD 1870.

The doctrine of a literal millennium has been improved in the last 200 years with a new doctrine of dispensationalism

I do not endorse dispensationalism or the popular concept of the "rapture".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

There is no "end of time" in any apostolic teaching in the scriptures. There is a "time of the end" presented in scripture, but no "end of time" when the clock stops ticking.

God lives in eternity, where there is no time.

The question would then be, "What particular "end" is this referring to? The Apostle Peter once wrote in 1 Peter 4:7 that "the end of all things is at hand", meaning an end which had arrived for those with Peter's perspective on the timeline. And of course, history has been marching forward since that time in Peter's day. So obviously Peter wasn't referring to any mythical "end of time" when he wrote that verse.

"The end of all things" is precisely the end of time.
However, those in the time of the NT writers, and the writers themselves, thought the second coming would occur in their lifetimes.

The resurrection in "the last day" of what period?

The period of the New Covenant, the period from the resurrection of Jesus to the end of the fallen creation, to be followed by the new heaven and new earth, the home of righteousness, which are never ending.

The presumption is that this is at the end of the world's existence. It's not. It was the "last day" of "the end of all things" which Peter said was presently at hand in his days. John carried that sense of imminence even further when he announced that it was the "last HOUR" in 1 John 2:18.

Yes, Jesus said he would return "soon," (Rev 22:7, 12, 20), and those in NT times thought it meant that he would return in their lifetimes.

But I agree that the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 catching up of the resurrected saints was to take place at the second coming, which was also connected to the time for the judgment of the sheep and the goats. But these things are not for our future. They were in the near future for the first-century generation, and are events that have come and gone long ago.

So the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gather them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .all of the above and
1) not a scintilla of it in an historical record anywhere?
2) And while all the dead of the earth were risen, the elect were raptured in their glorified bodies, what about the risen non-elect? What happened to them?

The problem is that the presumption has usually been that there is one and ONLY ONE resurrection and judgment.

Methinks apostolic teaching is not the problem.
Methinks the problem is interpreting literally what are prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings), not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8), and setting Scripture against itself in these misinterpretations.

And it seems what you call presumption, I call apostolic teaching, authoritative to the church, which locates the resurrection, rapture, second coming and judgment together.

Scripture presents a THIRD coming of Christ - not just a second coming.

Not in apostolic teaching, authoritative to the church, which notion it actually contradicts.

And that first-century resurrection / second coming / rapture / judgment of sheep and goats is ancient history by now. What we are currently waiting for is the third final resurrection event with yet another judgment of sheep and goats.

Now if only the apostles, whose teaching is authoritative to the church, would get on board with that, we could trot it out and sell it.

However, according to their teaching, as distinct from prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) not spoken clearly, apostolic teaching presents one resurrection, one rapture (1 Th 4:16-17), one second coming and one final judgment (Mt 24:29-31, 25:31-33) all together, and we have no authority to add to nor to alter that.

 

[3 Resurrections]

"The end of all things" is precisely the end of time.

Give me a verse which specifically says that time will no longer exist when Christ returns. And please don't use the mistranslated KJV of Revelation 10:6, which really should read "there shall be DELAY no longer".

And scripture does present the continued ordinary flow of the history of mankind on this earth AFTER Christ's second coming. In Zechariah 14:16, "From year to year" AFTER Christ bodily return to the Mount of Olives, the nations are still operating on earth, with some worshipping Christ correctly, and some not.

In Matthew 24, there are continued periods of regular tribulation for the believers AFTER the unparalleled "Great Tribulation" which "Great Tribulation" is "IMMEDIATELY" followed by Christ's second coming. That means the ordinary history of mankind keeps marching forward AFTER Christ's second coming. What are you going to do with all the continued generations of people living AFTER Christ's second coming? They, too, of necessity will stand in a judgment before God, which of necessity would have to be a third resurrection event. "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ..." That includes those who are born and die in the generations following the "Great Tribulation" which was "IMMEDIATELY" followed by Christ's second coming.

 

[Eleanor]

Give me a verse which specifically says that time will no longer exist when Christ returns. And please don't use the mistranslated KJV of Revelation 10:6, which really should read "there shall be DELAY no longer".

Non-responsive to my argument.

That would be three verses after "God is Trinity."

Eternity is not time.
The destruction of the heavens and earth is the end of time.
The new heavens and new earth are of eternity.

 

[3 Resurrections]

However, those in the time of the NT writers, and the writers themselves, thought the second coming would occur in their lifetimes.

It did. None of them were mistaken on that point. Church tradition has interpreted the apostolic teaching incorrectly for many years.