Pharaoh’s Heart

[fastfredy0]

Occurs to me to ask, "Does sin have ontology?" Does darkness?

Such fancy words. What do you do for a living? Brain surgeon, biochemical engineer, boot leggier?

Augustine didn't think sin or darkness had ontology (being). Darkness is the absence of light. Sin is lack of righteousness.

I'm inviting @Josheb to chime in here, with his clear mind.

Oh, so you want the opinion of both a clear and unclear mind.

 

[Carbon]

fastfredy0 said:
Sin (evil) does not exist. It is the lack of righteousness in a person/spirit.

Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself. R.C.Sproul
If Augustine's approach is fair, it prompts a pair of syllogisms that lead to a different conclusion.

First:
1) All things that God created are good;
2) evil is not good;
3) therefore, evil was not created by God.

Second:
1) God created everything;
2) God did not create evil;
3) therefore, evil is not a thing.

Occurs to me to ask, "Does sin have ontology?" Does darkness?

I'm inviting @Josheb to chime in here, with his clear mind.

Maybe a lost/fallen state.
It’s a state of being which is inferior of God (of course) does not submit to but continues to challenge God. Comes from pride, want to be in the place of God.

 

[fastfredy0]

Oh no! You usually agree with me! Now I have to rethink my whole paradigm!

Premise 1: We agree most of the time
Premise 2: Thinking is not one of my strong points
Conclusion: If thinking is one of your strong points you'll know the conclusion.

 

[makesends]

Premise 1: We agree most of the time
Premise 2: Thinking is not one of my strong points
Conclusion: If thinking is one of your strong points you'll know the conclusion.

Yes, and there is my problem. Self-contradiction!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If God can soften a heart, and He could. Why in some cases is it temporary?

you're asking about God's motivation for doing what He does. Shall the thing made say to Him that made it: "Why have You made me thus??" (Rom 9:20)

Obviously if God had softened Pharaoh's heart to begin with the plagues would never have been necessary, nor would the destruction of the Army in the river. He'd have just allowed them all to leave, no fuss no muss and no bother.

 

[Carbon]

If God can soften a heart, and He could. Why in some cases is it temporary?

@Bob Carabbio
Secondary causes, divine providence. And all things working for good to those who love God. Does it sound robotic?
Shouldn’t, God makes no one do against their will.

 

[Carbon]

you're asking about God's motivation for doing what He does. Shall the thing made say to Him that made it: "Why have You made me thus??" (Rom 9:20)

I’m not asking about this in the way you think.

Obviously if God had softened Pharaoh's heart to begin with the plagues would never have been necessary, nor would the destruction of the Army in the river. He'd have just allowed them all to leave, no fuss no muss and no bother.

Um, yea, ……. So?

 

[Arial]

Arial said:
And I do not believe that God can be said to be the first cause of Adam's sin. God did not make him sin, He only gave him a will that could. And yet He intended that Adam would sin, because, as we see in the completion of the Scriptures, that God had a grander, and far reaching purpose in it. That of a completely new creation out of the utter destruction of evil.

Do human words, and does human process of thinking, then, bring us to the point where we have to say that evil (sin) does not 'exist' as such? After all, First Cause —God himself— caused what resulted in moral evil, no?

Overthinking often causes such dilemmas. There is something about us humans that insists, "I can figure this out. I know I can! And I must!" It has given birth to thousands upon thousands of books. But don't think for a minute that I am suggesting that we should not think about these things or that these books have no value.

But "cause" itself can be a bit ambiguous, and confused with "brought into existence." The fact that God created all that is, does not necessarily mean He caused all that is. He created man a specific way as a specific type of being, for a specific purpose, even though He knew before our world was even created that Adam would sin and in so doing alienate every person born from Himself. But God did not cause Adam to sin. God did not cause moral evil.

Sin is not a creation. A thinking, moving, rational being has the ability of choice---just as the one whose image and likeness he bears, does. He can rebel against the One who made Him and made Him to be a certain way and do as His maker says, or he can obey. But he is still a creature under obligation to obey, and disobeying breaks that covenant relationship of God that was established in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were created and placed in that Garden where all was very good, and every need met by the Creator, provided by Him, for a purpose. And that purpose was to care for and tend all that was in His creation. He was God's vassal king to put it in human language, over all the earth and everything in it, but God was still their King.

That is why, (and this is nothing more than my opinion and not meant to be The Truth, or preclude the value of interested or pursuit of the "cause" issue) to me trying to place all of God and what followed into first, second, third causes, in order to find who is responsible for what, eventually (for me) looses sight of the central issue of who God is. It is a given fact from Scripture, that God is without sin, therefore not the author of sin, therefore makes no one sin. And yet, we are all sinners through our first parents, as God placed us, through/in Adam, as stewards of His creation. There is more to it that who caused what.

 

[Carbon]

Obviously if God had softened Pharaoh's heart to begin with the plagues would never have been necessary, nor would the destruction of the Army in the river. He'd have just allowed them all to leave, no fuss no muss and no bother.

But why would you synergists stand for such a thing? Maybe if that were the case, Pharaoh wanted a hard heart, to be angry. Wouldn’t you have God going against his will?
Or as God hardened his heart, isn’t that God taking his freedom away?

So much for synergism Bob.
Bob, it’s time, for you to become a Calvinist

 

[Arial]

Oh, so you want the opinion of both a clear and unclear mind.

Or one could look at it as no clear minds have yet been involved in the conversation.

 

[Eleanor]

By not choosing to soften hearts, leaving them to their own devices, wouldn’t they “naturally” without softening (regenerating) continue in their own ways?

That is my point. . .hardening hearts; i.e., simply leaving them to their own ways.

 

[Carbon]

That is my point. . .hardening hearts; i.e., simply leaving them to their own ways.

I disagree. There is a difference when a heart is being hardened.

 

[Eleanor]

I disagree. There is a difference when a heart is being hardened.

As in making it impossible to see what before they could have seen (Ro 1:19)?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Bob, it’s time, for you to become a Calvinist

Of course it's only "Theology" so no big deal. I used to think I was a "Calvinist" (since I was Born again as a Southern Baptist). 60 years later, being "non-systematic, eclectic" suits me better.

 

[Arial]

I disagree. There is a difference when a heart is being hardened.

I think the difference is God's purpose in doing what He was about to do. And I think the purpose in the plagues was to demonstrate to both Pharaoh and Israel, that there is one God and He is that God, and He is the deliverer, the provider, the Creator, and wields sovereign rule over it to do as He pleases. Remember the Israelites had been over four hundred years surrounded by pagan God worship. And it is I, He says to Israel who will be your God, and you will be my people. A covenant personal relationship. It was but one historical step of redemption in bringing about the promise given in the Garden. The seed of the woman will crush your heal.

We are not given the logistics or the details of how God hardened Pharaohs heart, but what the hardening was. Every display of God's power in judgement and choice was met with resistance and an attempt by men to duplicate the same events. Until the worst of the worst happened and the first born of all of Egypt was struck dead, while the firstborn of the Israelites were spared. And even after Pharaoh had let them go, he had a change of heart, and we know how that ended.

The hardening can be by him being given over to arrogance and stubborness which Pharaoh already had. It could be God actively causing Pharaoh to resist Him, for His purpose, while at the same time doing no violence to Pharaoh's will.

 

[Carbon]

As in making it impossible to see what before they could have seen (Ro 1:19)?

No, that’s only natural. It’s showing they are without excuse

 

[Carbon]

I think the difference is God's purpose in doing what He was about to do.

I don’t disagree. But like you said, He was about to and did it.
That’s different from someone just remaining in the natural.

 

[Carbon]

I think the difference is God's purpose in doing what He was about to do. And I think the purpose in the plagues was to demonstrate to both Pharaoh and Israel, that there is one God and He is that God, and He is the deliverer, the provider, the Creator, and wields sovereign rule over it to do as He pleases. Remember the Israelites had been over four hundred years surrounded by pagan God worship. And it is I, He says to Israel who will be your God, and you will be my people. A covenant personal relationship. It was but one historical step of redemption in bringing about the promise given in the Garden. The seed of the woman will crush your heal.

We are not given the logistics or the details of how God hardened Pharaohs heart, but what the hardening was. Every display of God's power in judgement and choice was met with resistance and an attempt by men to duplicate the same events. Until the worst of the worst happened and the first born of all of Egypt was struck dead, while the firstborn of the Israelites were spared. And even after Pharaoh had let them go, he had a change of heart, and we know how that ended.

The hardening can be by him being given over to arrogance and stubborness which Pharaoh already had. It could be God actively causing Pharaoh to resist Him, for His purpose, while at the same time doing no violence to Pharaoh's will.

Well I do believe pharoah hardened his own heart, that’s the way it was ordained. I don’t believe God took hold of him and did something to make him harden his heart, nor did He harden pharaohs heart by such.

I think the answer is right there in scripture.
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies. Psalm 58.

We all go astray from birth. We’re at enmity with God.
All God has to do is just back off a bit with His grace (sustaining grace) and allow the person, in this case pharaoh,to be more of himself.
God isn’t causing it, the man is hardening himself which is natural if given his desires.

But at the same time, God hardened his heart

 

[Arial]

I don’t disagree. But like you said, He was about to and did it.
That’s different from someone just remaining in the natural.

In the natural his heart was already hard, which I know you know. So of course God hardening his heart was not the first time he had a hard heart.God did not give him a hard heart. Which I also know you know. So maybe----continual and defiant resistance to God who presents Himself "right before your eyes and in your face." as God was doing with Pharaoh, is its own becoming harder and harder, but it was God in his face, that precipitated that degree of hardness? Pharaoh was in essence shaking his fist in God's face, declaring he could outwit Him?

 

[Josheb]

So how then did God harden pharaoh’s heart?

I've already answered that question. God gave Pharoah over to his desires.

My heart is hard.
My heart is hard.
My heart is hard.
Okay. You have a hard heart.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

God warned him once. God warned him a second time. God, in His loving patience, kindness, forbearance, and hope, even warned him thrice. Pharoah, being warped, sinful, and self-condemned was left to his lusts.

Or even Joseph’s brothers, which they meant for evil but God meant for good.

Are we changing the topic now? Moving away from Pharoah to someone else? Why? My answer is the same. We know those men were corrupt longer before they sold Joseph. They were all sinners and all God had to do to bring about His plan for Joseph was let those men be who they were. Anyone reading Genesis 49 readily sees both the character and the destinies of those men was understood by their father. Why did they do what they did?

Because they could.​

God did not need to make them do anything. That He acted in concert with their sinfulness and character is not a conflict with anything. Take, for example, the problem recurring in scripture where men are often gone from the home in their early years but at home in their later years when they have aged. Jacob spent a lot of time with Joseph because he was old. He hadn't been around to raise his older boys, and even if he had he did not have the same affection for those who were the offspring of women beside Rachel. Jacob making a coat for Joseph is code. Sewing was women's work. A coat of many colors was a coat made from scrapes. Coats woven without seams were the expensive ones. Joseph was so happy to have a coat made by his father he, in his youthful ignorance, had no idea when he went to boast about it before his brothers in the field that he was being exceedingly prideful and foolish. They mocked him because he was too stupid to realize he was boasting about a coat made from scraps. They hated him because dad never made them a coat and they'd have been happy to have any kind of coat from dad, even one of scraps.

Those family dynamics molded those boys to become the men they were.

If God had not intervened to break Joseph (like He had with his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather before him), Joseph would have been just as prideful, hard-hearted, and foolish as the rest of them. It does not take much (if any) effort to let a fool be a fool. The effort is in making the fool wise.

I know scripture reads in the case of pharaoh that he also hardened his own heart. But of course, that would go without saying. Though it needed to be said.

Yes, but scripture is bringing the reader along through a myriad of influences and conditions that do not all come with neon lights announcing what can be understood only through contemplation.

Pharoah is contrasted by Moses. Moses was a boy abandoned by his mother, and even if for a noble and worthy cause, it likely still stung to know his mother abandoned him. Moses did not understand he was being raised in Pharoah's household to receive a nobleman's education, to learn science, diplomacy and foreign philosophies, warfare, and receive the finest foods to build a strong body and mind. Being nursed by his mother, he also learned all there was to know about Judaism. He was uniquely prepared, but he was still a man willing to murder who became a murderer. Where Pharoah had known entitlement all his life, Moses experienced chronic rejection. Sent, like a scapegoat, out into the wilderness he found acceptance..... and God. He did not know only about God; he knew God. Up close. Personal. Face-to-face. Irrefutable. Undeniable.


God could have done that with Pharoah, too.


But He did not. God doing so certainly would have changed everything. He does not have to do anything to let a hard-hearted man be hard-hearted and the minute God gives that guy over to his lusts his fate is further sealed. Sin is much more deterministic than God. That is the problem to be solved, and only God can solve that problem.