Pharaoh’s Heart

[Josheb]

fastfredy0 said:
Sin (evil) does not exist. It is the lack of righteousness in a person/spirit.

Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself. R.C.Sproul
If Augustine's approach is fair, it prompts a pair of syllogisms that lead to a different conclusion.

First:
1) All things that God created are good;
2) evil is not good;
3) therefore, evil was not created by God.

Second:
1) God created everything;
2) God did not create evil;
3) therefore, evil is not a thing.

Occurs to me to ask, "Does sin have ontology?" Does darkness?

I'm inviting @Josheb to chime in here, with his clear mind.

I am inclined to agree with the premise sin is the absence or antithesis of good, but that does not preclude sin from having an "ontology." It is the nature of sin to corrupt and kill everything it infects. It's like rust. It mindlessly corrodes everything it can and unless intervened upon brings everything it touches eventually to naught.

The second syllogism is faulty. The first mistake is that God created everything that was made. The second is that creating something does not preclude its antithesis as either an existing alternative or a potentially existing alternative. Sin and transgressional death were conditional effects or consequence. "If you eat then you will die," is a conditional statement. "If you disobey me then you will become sinful," is a conditional statement. When the condition X is realized then the consequence Y ensues. This is a dialectic (two seemingly contradictory premises that, when synthesized create something different or new). Creation is full of them. God made a good world that had the potential to become not-good. That potentiality was realized (as God knew it would) and something entirely different than what God had originally made ensued. Makes a huge difference to us.

Does not change God or His plan one fraction of an iota.


I must add: this op is about post-disobedient conditions, not pre-disobedient conditions. Attempting to explain Pharoah's heart condition by means of a good and sinless world is a categorical error. Pharoah was never good or sinless. His heart, therefore, was never like the pre-disobedient Adam's prior to Genesis 3:6-7.

 

[donadams]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?


Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Best line in a movie (film) Ten Commandments when he says after the defeat “His God is God”!

 

[TonyChanYT]

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Was it God or Pharaoh himself? If your answer is one or the other, you are only half-right. Even before the hardening of the heart happened, Exodus 4:

21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."

From a prophetic and vertical point of view, it said that God would harden Pharaoh's heart. However, humanly or horizontally speaking, four chapters later on in Exodus 8:

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Now, it said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart while the hardening was happening. Note the sequence of events:

1. God prophesied that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart.
2. God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
3. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
4. God let us know: See, I told you so. Pharaoh's heart was hardened. God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart.

This is a basic idea of the Co-Reality Model. Vertical and horizontal events intertwine to produce a coherent and unified reality. If you ignore either perspective, you only know half the truth. Reality can only be understood completely by looking at it from both perspectives.

God is almighty and just, Romans 9:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God created Pharaoh for his purpose. Yet, at the same time, Pharaoh was responsible for his actions.

The case of Pharaoh was not unique. See Co-Reality.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

From a prophetic and vertical point of view, it said that God would harden Pharaoh's heart.

By ceasing His softening of it. God just let Pharaoh "go back to normal".

 

[Eleanor]

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Was it God or Pharaoh himself? If your answer is one or the other, you are only half-right. Even before the hardening of the heart happened, Exodus 4:


From a prophetic and vertical point of view, it said that God would harden Pharaoh's heart. However, humanly or horizontally speaking, four chapters later on in Exodus 8:


Now, it said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart while the hardening was happening. Note the sequence of events:

1. God prophesied that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart.
2. God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
3. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
4. God let us know: See, I told you so. Pharaoh's heart was hardened. God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart.

This is a basic idea of the Co-Reality Model. Vertical and horizontal events intertwine to produce a coherent and unified reality. If you ignore either perspective, you only know half the truth. Reality can only be understood completely by looking at it from both perspectives.

God is almighty and just, Romans 9:


God created Pharaoh for his purpose. Yet, at the same time, Pharaoh was responsible for his actions.

The case of Pharaoh was not unique. See Co-Reality.

Pharaoh and all those born of Adam are merited with Adam's action,
just as all those born of Jesus are merited with Jesus' action (Ro 5:18).

 

[TonyChanYT]

By ceasing His softening of it. God just let Pharaoh "go back to normal".

verse?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Pharaoh and all those born of Adam are merited with Adam's action,

What is Adam's action?

 

[Carbon]

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Was it God or Pharaoh himself? If your answer is one or the other, you are only half-right. Even before the hardening of the heart happened, Exodus 4:


From a prophetic and vertical point of view, it said that God would harden Pharaoh's heart. However, humanly or horizontally speaking, four chapters later on in Exodus 8:


Now, it said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart while the hardening was happening. Note the sequence of events:

1. God prophesied that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart.
2. God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
3. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
4. God let us know: See, I told you so. Pharaoh's heart was hardened. God knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart.

Are you suggesting that it was from foreseeing Pharaoh would harden his heart that God knew? And that God used that to show us how He had something to do with it?

Well, let me tell you, that's a new one for me. I think it's totally ridiculous, however.

This is a basic idea of the Co-Reality Model. Vertical and horizontal events intertwine to produce a coherent and unified reality. If you ignore either perspective, you only know half the truth. Reality can only be understood completely by looking at it from both perspectives.

God is almighty and just, Romans 9:


God created Pharaoh for his purpose. Yet, at the same time, Pharaoh was responsible for his actions.

The case of Pharaoh was not unique. See Co-Reality.

Of course, Pharoah was responsible for his actions.

Would you explain how God hardens hearts? I'm just not seeing it. From what I get out of your theory, it just happened by chance actually.

 

[Eleanor]

What is Adam's action?

Sin of disobedience (Ro 5:12 18).

 

[Eleanor]

Are you suggesting that it was from foreseeing Pharaoh would harden his heart that God knew? And that God used that to show us how He had something to do with it?

Well, let me tell you, that's a new one for me. I think it's totally ridiculous, however.

Of course, Pharoah was responsible for his actions.

Would you explain how God hardens hearts? I'm just not seeing it. From what I get out of your theory, it just happened by chance actually.

By leaving them to themselves and not softening them?

 

[Carbon]

By leaving them to themselves and not softening them?

I believe God hardened their heart by lifting His hand of grace and letting man be more of himself. To say by not softening seems to change things a bit, it would make it seem, that even though God lifted His sustaining grace, He will have to not soften them as well or they might of their own not harden their heart.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Are you suggesting that it was from foreseeing Pharaoh would harden his heart that God knew?

God knows everything.

 

[Carbon]

God knows everything.

Well, I agree with that.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Pharaoh and all those born of Adam are merited with Adam's action,
just as all those born of Jesus are merited with Jesus' action (Ro 5:18).

Does it relate to my point of Co-Reality?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Would you explain how God hardens hearts?

God did it through vertical/spiritual means. God made Pharaoh's mind and volition stubborn. God is almighty. He can do anything.

 

[Carbon]

God did it through vertical/spiritual means. God made Pharaoh's mind and volition stubborn. God is almighty. He can do anything.

Okay.

 

[Mr GLee]

God did it through vertical/spiritual means. God made Pharaoh's mind and volition stubborn. God is almighty. He can do anything.

I would offer. In Job 23. We are informed it is God who creates in us a new heart , watering cleansing with the water of the word

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

In that way God is revealed as not being served by the dying hands as a will of mankind

Ephesians 5:25-2King James Version25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Doctrines that fall inspired from heaven that work in the heart of men on earth (Deuteronomy 32:2 )

Christ performs the work as a labor of His love of in dying mankind making thier hearts soft .

For the Pharaoh . . the famine for hearing the water of the word remained. He remined in unbelief (no faith ) hard hearted fool .

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

 

[Bob Carabbio]

verse?

Logic. God's interaction brings repentance, and conviction, God's absence/withdrawal allows Human nature to re-express itself.
Simple as that. (2 Chr 32:31)

 

[TonyChanYT]

Logic. God's interaction brings repentance, and conviction

By "Logic", do you mean First-Order Logic?

 

[Eleanor]

I believe God hardened their heart by lifting His hand of grace and letting man be more of himself. To say by not softening seems to change things a bit, it would make it seem, that even though God lifted His sustaining grace, He will have to not soften them as well or they might of their own not harden their heart.

Can anyone soften their heart on their own in light of the fall of man and his imputed guilt of Adam's sin?