Pharaoh’s Heart

[fastfredy0]

And I do not believe that God can be said to be the first cause of Adam's sin. God did not make him sin, He only gave him a will that could. And yet He intended that Adam would sin,

Agreed, God gave Adam his will. Adam's will caused Adam to sin. How is this not causal on the part of God?
Definition of cause: The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

Adam was not created with a sin nature, but he was created with a will

Agreed, Adam did not inherit a sin nature like we do.

But he was not created autonomous, that is self determining and independant of his Creator.

Agreed.

He was free to make choices,

"Free" in what respect? I agree that Adam did not have "libertarian free will". I believe Adam was free to choose to sin according to Adam's will; but who/what determined/created Adam's will to choose to do "X" or "Y"? Adam did not create his own will.

we always choose according to our nature

Agreed. Who determined Adam's nature?

 

[fastfredy0]

re: What was the 'first cause' of this hardness?

Adam...right?

How can a non-eternal being (Adam) chose what his will (his nature) is where such will/nature determines choices.


Premise 1: From nothing, nothing comes (even Gods cannot know what nothing will do in the future)
Premise 2: God knows ALL THINGS (including all future events; where every atom He created will
be though out time; time also being His creation
Conclusion: God is the first cause of all things. God DETERMINES ALL THINGS.

 

[fastfredy0]

Job 40:1 Then the Lord said to Job,
2 “Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who disputes with God answer it.”
3 Then Job replied to the Lord and said,
4 “Behold, I am of little importance and contemptible; what can I reply to You?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
5 “I have spoken once, but I will not reply again—
Indeed, twice [I have answered], and I will add nothing further.”

When I consider the theme of the thread and dig deeper the verses above come to mind. Seems the God was 'ticked off' at Job for digging too deeply into the WHY of things IMO.

 

[Josheb]

Are you saying the plague hardened Pharoah's heart?

No.

The plagues were opportunities for Pharoah to soften his heart.

Is this how God hardened his heart?

No.

Not really sure how this fits in.

Good, because that's not what I'm saying.

Either way, you look at it, all clay (men) are born spiritually dead.

Yes, but that is not to be (over-)generalized to say God made Pharoah sinful, with a sinfully hardened heart before He created Adam.

Do you believe in secondary causes?

Absolutely. Not only do I believe secondary causes exist, but I also believe God did not violence to them when He ordained all things from creation.

I believe it was before that. Some time in eternity.

As long as it is not construed to mean God made Pharoah sinful, with a sinfully hardened heart, before He made Adam.

When God told Abraham his descendants would be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years and then God would free them (and take them to the land He'd promised Abraham with all of Egypt's wealth) that was not a sudden change in God's plan. It wasn't a contingency. Calvinism asserts the existence of contingencies but that is not what God's promises are. For one, there's no "if" spoken to Abraham. What was going to happen was going to happen and the full force of prophetic utterance came to bear on that poor shmuck of a Pharoah. Moses and Pharoah are preceded by Abraham and Abraham is preceded by many things, one of which is Genesis 3:15 and the tree of life that is an inherent part of creation.

So, yes, the hardening of Pharoah's heart was ordained from eternity BUT Pharoah's ordained hardening did not make God the author of sin, do violence to Pharoah's will, or do violence to the contingencies of secondary causes.

 

[Arial]

Agreed, God gave Adam his will. Adam's will caused Adam to sin. How is this not causal on the part of God?
Definition of cause: The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

As Augustine said, that seeking a rational explanation for the origin of sin, is like trying to see darkness or hear silence. It is an intruder into God's perfect creation. Imo, though interesting and thought provoking, trying to identify and name first and second and third causes, is futile. And leads to that futility in much the same way, though not the same conclusion, as those arguments proposed by proponents of the big bang theory. They have nothing creating something out of nothing. So they fall back on they haven't been able to go back far enough in billions of years yet to find this nothing that created something. (I do not know if what I am saying is at all clear. It is very difficult to put into words.)

And this causal discussion is either used to defend God against being the cause of sin or to defend the need for libertarian free will---which is also defending God against all culpability. He needs no defenders. We have what He has given us, not what He has not given us. The creation account is God establishing a covenant with Himself and creation---including man---and with man it is personal for the sake of communion between Creator and the created, and intimate fellowship and as caretaker over His creation. As such the one in covenant must also be a personal being, and a personal being has a will. A covenant must also have covenant obligations, which are given at creation. Adam and Eve became covenant breakers---no longer in the covenant of grace in which the covenant maker stoops down and bestows only good things upon those in covenant.

That is where I stand on the issue.

"Free" in what respect? I agree that Adam did not have "libertarian free will". I believe Adam was free to choose to sin according to Adam's will; but who/what determined/created Adam's will to choose to do "X" or "Y"? Adam did not create his own will.

Free to make choices, and not yet corrupted by sin. We also are free to make choices, but we are corrupted by sin. God did not create Adam's will to choose x or y. God created his will, and Adam used this will to choose to disobey instead of obey.

Agreed. Who determined Adam's nature?

God determined Adam's nature and it was very good, that is, without sin. Sin has a consequence, as God clearly stated. If you disobey, you will die.

 

[Mr GLee]

Agreed, God gave Adam his will. Adam's will caused Adam to sin. How is this not causal on the part of God?
Definition of cause: The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

Adam the prophet received direct revelation from God .Adam a shadow of the high Priest (Jesus the Son of man) the head of the body was to prophecy to Eve the weaker vessel (one that does receive revelation directly from the Father. Adam was to preach the words of our invisible God. Adam failed, not protecting his wife by preaching the truth given to him from the Holy Father

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Lucifer the father of false apostles, false prophets sought to spread his false gospel (oral traditons of dying mankind.) deceived Eve adding to prophecy "neither shall ye touch it", Therefore violating the law to not add or subtract from prophecy it can change intent of the one author
like shown with Adam and Eve. When she touched it and did not die she then ate and Adam followed the same false prophecy believing the lie "neither shall ye touch it"

Genesis 3: 2-4 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God did not say neither shall you touch it.

1 Timothy 2: 11-14 Let the woman (Eve Church) learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man( Christ the husband) , but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve .And Adam (the head) was not deceived, but the woman being deceived (neither shall ye touch it) was in the transgression.

 

[CrowCross]

re: What was the 'first cause' of this hardness?

How can a non-eternal being (Adam) chose what his will (his nature) is where such will/nature determines choices.

It's the fall that determined Adams new nature.

Premise 1: From nothing, nothing comes (even Gods cannot know what nothing will do in the future)
Premise 2: God knows ALL THINGS (including all future events; where every atom He created will
be though out time; time also being His creation
Conclusion: God is the first cause of all things. God DETERMINES ALL THINGS.

I have no problem with premise 2. Premise 1 I have a problem with.

 

[fastfredy0]

As Augustine said, that seeking a rational explanation for the origin of sin, is like trying to see darkness or hear silence. It is an intruder into God's perfect creation. Imo, though interesting and thought provoking,

Agreed

trying to identify and name first and second and third causes, is futile.

So, you don't think God is the first cause of all things?

That is where I stand on the issue.

Yeah ... it's a thought provoking, provocative subject.

God did not create Adam's will to choose x or y.

Who determined Adam's will/preferences/tendencies? If not God, did Adam create his own will out of nothing? How?
How did the omniscient God know what Adam would do before Adam existed; when Adam was nothing, when Adam's will did not exist?

 

[fastfredy0]

It's the fall that determined Adams new nature.

Well, I was asking what/who determined Adam's nature before the fall.
As to after the fall ... who determined that the "fall" would change Adam's nature and who implemented the change in Adam's nature?

I have no problem with premise 2. Premise 1 I have a problem with.

Hmmm... so you maintain that God knows what nothing will do. So "in the beginning" there was God and some source of information outside of God that God could make inquiries as to what the future would hold. "Nothing" informing God seems to be a contradiction. So God's knowledge increased (He learned) from nothing is you contention. Does this not contradict immutability as God's knowledge would increase.
Do you know of any example of something be made from nothing; maybe the creation of the universe (Big Bang)?

 

[Arial]

So, you don't think God is the first cause of all things?

Of course I do. I just don't attempt to parse it into tiny pieces. I accept it.

Who determined Adam's will/preferences/tendencies? If not God, did Adam create his own will out of nothing? How?
How did the omniscient God know what Adam would do before Adam existed; when Adam was nothing, when Adam's will did not exist?

I do not understand the confusion. Adam's will was not created with preference/tendencies. It was created innocent. A will isn't actually an isolated, tangible, thing as our arms and legs, and liver, and brain etc. are. It is connected with the invisible things that are equally a part of us---like the mind, the feelings and emotions, and thoughts. And it is these invisible motivators that move us in one direction or another, and that movement or decision is called our will. Adam was created as an image and likeness of God, and that itself is responsibility to God. When we try to bring what is outside of time, as God is, and understand or describe it within time, that is, in terms of time, we cannot. We cannot. We cannot.
When we try to see into the mind and being of God, beyond what we are given, and what is given is all we can handle and live, we are trying to find the answer in our mind. And the answer is not there.

We are commanded to have faith in Him for a reason. And that reason is because there is only so much a finite mind is able to see.

 

[Arial]

Well, I was asking what/who determined Adam's nature before the fall.
As to after the fall ... who determined that the "fall" would change Adam's nature and who implemented the change in Adam's nature?

I recommend "Far As The Curse Is Found" by Michael D. Williams. I found it to be quite the eye opener on this and other things. Perspective, Perspective and Perspective. Sometimes that is all we need to shift.

 

[fastfredy0]

When we try to see into the mind and being of God, beyond what we are given, and what is given is all we can handle and live, we are trying to find the answer in our mind. And the answer is not there.

We are commanded to have faith in Him for a reason. And that reason is because there is only so much a finite mind is able to see.

Agreed ... I'll drop my questions.

 

[fastfredy0]

ooops

 

[prism]

I'm fine with this...

Romans 9:18 ESV
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[Eleanor]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?
How does this work?
Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Are we not all born with a hard (unbelieving) heart until God's softens it?

Would God's simply not softening hearts necessarily result in their further hardening?

 

[Fred]

Isaiah 63:17
O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return for Thy slaves' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance.

 

[Eleanor]

Isaiah 63:17
O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our heart from Thy fear? Return for Thy slaves' sake, the tribes of Thine inheritance.

Could that mean a choice not to soften hearts, leaving them to their own devices?

 

[Fred]

Could that mean a choice not to soften hearts, leaving them to their own devices?

It certainly looks that way to me.

Joshua speaking to the Israelites: Incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel (Joshua 24:23).
Solomon speaking of God: That He may incline our hearts unto Him (1 Kings 8:58).

 

[Arial]

Agreed ... I'll drop my questions.

No need do that, You ask, I'll give my answer, the one that applies to me. That does not mean I am right, or that anyone is wrong, or their questions invalid. I enjoy the questions and answering them, because it makes me think!

 

[Arial]

Are we not all born with a hard (unbelieving) heart until God's softens it?

Would God's simply not softening hearts necessarily result in their further hardening?

Also, think of a child, adolescent, adult or even some full grown and aged adults. The more you tell them they can't do something the more they try to do it. Or the more you try to make them something, the more they refuse to do it, and the consequences must become stronger. The resistance also becomes stronger until it breaks. Is that a heart hardening?