Penal Substitution

[Arial]

Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory - A Sad Substitute

I was on involved in an online dialogue about atonement and redemption when the theory of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) came up. The Orthodox

liveorthodoxy.com

I'm not a practicing Christian. I am Eastern-Orthodox by baptism. I do know a few things about Christianity though. I've been reading and watching videos about it for over 5 years.

How about you go to the source? God and His self revelation in the Bible and check what you are watching on youtube videos (which is plethora of anything and everything) and see if there is any validity in what is being said. You might actually learn something of truth as only God can speak it, with that approach.

I'm curious though, as to why as not a practicing Christian (whatever that means. Does it mean unbelief in the person and work of Christ?), why you feel qualified to debate any aspect of it, let alone penal substitution? Maybe ask questions? And listen to the answers?

I will ask you one to start off. Why do you say Jesus died on the cross? So far you have not responded to anything I have posted to you, so I will wait and see if you answer my questions. I have come across those in this forum and others who reach a point where they stay in the conversation but will not engage with what I post. That is why I say that.

 

[Lifeson]

I'm sorry I missed your questions. I tried to reply to most of the comments. I don't know why Jesus had to die. It's a mystery to me. Apologies if I'm not allowed to partake in the discussions because I'm a non-practicing Christians. I will refrain from doing so if those are the rules.

The videos I posted are from people who represent the Eastern-Orthodox view of the atonement. They're theologians, priests etc.

I've read the Bible, the New Testament at least 3 or 4 times. I've also read other theology books. My conclusion was that the Bible contains contradictory statements that can be used to support any of the doctrines of atonement. Yes, you can find plenty of verses that can be interpreted in ways that support Penal Substitution in the Bible. You can also find many that can be interpreted in ways that contradict Penal Substitution.

Some people are able to dismiss or reinterpret the verses that don't suit their views, but I am not able to do so. Due to my inability to reconcile the numerous Biblical contradictions, I have concluded that the Bible is not infallible and/or complete, and that God is merciful enough to save everyone.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm sorry I missed your questions. I tried to reply to most of the comments. I don't know why Jesus had to die. It's a mystery to me. Apologies if I'm not allowed to partake in the discussions because I'm a non-practicing Christians. I will refrain from doing so if those are the rules.
The videos I posted are from people who represent the Eastern-Orthodox view of the atonement. They're theologians, priests etc.
I've read the Bible, the New Testament at least 3 or 4 times. I've also read other theology books. My conclusion was that the Bible contains contradictory statements that can be used to support any of the doctrines of atonement. Yes, you can find plenty of verses that can be interpreted in ways that support Penal Substitution in the Bible. You can also find many that can be interpreted in ways that contradict Penal Substitution.
Some people are able to dismiss or reinterpret the verses that don't suit their views, but I am not able to do so. Due to my inability to reconcile the numerous Biblical contradictions, I have concluded that the Bible is not infallible and/or complete, and that God is merciful enough to save everyone.

Good luck with that!

 

[Arial]

I don't know why Jesus had to die. It's a mystery to me. Apologies if I'm not allowed to partake in the discussions because I'm a non-practicing Christians. I will refrain from doing so if those are the rules.

I did not say you were not allowed to partake in the discussion. I merely asked why you were discussing something you say you don't know anything about. Plus you said you had been in so many debates about it that you were kind of tired of it.

Did you attend the Eastern Orthodox church or were you only baptized in it?
If you attended, what did they teach about the death of Christ?
What sorts of things have you learned on Youtube?
Are you interested and want to know why Christ died?

I've read the Bible, the New Testament at least 3 or 4 times. I've also read other theology books. My conclusion was that the Bible contains contradictory statements that can be used to support any of the doctrines of atonement.

Well there is no contradiction in the truths that the Bible teaches. Where there appear to be contradictions, the problem is not with the Bible, it is in the person's not being able to reconcile one thing with the other. Scripture interprets scripture. What is unclear is interpreted by what is clear on the same subject.

Give me an example of two statements you find to be contradictory and I will give you an example of what I mean. And I don't mean things like where one of the Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, John) where the same event is given in a different order or may differ slightly in details. I mean where two contradictory truths are being taught.

The first and most important thing to understand is who Jesus is, what He did, how He did it, and why He did it. If you come to a place where you believe those things, then you will be on the road to understanding more and more.

God is holy. There is not a shadow of unrighteousness in Him. He created everything that is created, it all belongs to Him. He created one thing in all His creation in His own image and likeness, and gave them dominion over the earth to care for it and each other. As made in His image we are obligated to Him our King, to bear that image in all our ways. We are to be righteous in all our ways.

Adam broke that intimate covenant relationship in the Garden of Eden when he disobeyed God, and everything changed. The human race had now become a race of sinners, rebelling against our Maker and wrecking havoc on His creation and working evil among ourselves with one another.

There was not and is not a single thing we can do to rectify that ourselves. No amount of good works or repentance will change who we are before God. He could have destroyed the human race but in His great mercy He did not. Instead He set His plan of redemption within the God head of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into motion. He made temporary provision through the Laws of Israel with Israel from whom the Redeemer would come. Throughout the OT He promises the coming Messiah.

This Redeemer had to undo what Adam did in order for any to be reconciled to the holy God. He had to defeat the power of sin and the power of death that it brought. He had to be the second Adam as Romans says. In order to defeat that power of sin and death He had to take the death sentence for it in the place of the sinner. This Redeemer had to be of the same kind as those He redeemed. He had to be a man.

But He had to also be completely without sin himself or else another redeemer would have to substitute for His sins. Which means He could not be born in Adam for all the seed of Adam carries sin with it. And there is only one perfect and perfectly righteous, and that is God. God Himself is the only one who can redeem us. God the Son came as the Redeemer Jesus, born of a woman, whose Father is God, not a man. So, not born in Adam.

He was born under the Law and kept it perfectly. He was obedient to His Father even unto death on the cross. On the cross He took the full weight of the death penalty for sin, the personal sins of others, and the sin of Adam that we also carry in us, and He died.

But He had no sin of His own so death could not hold Him and He rose to life on the third day. He spent forty days preparing His disciples to teach the things they have taught us in the epistles, and then He ascended back to His Father, to His coronation as King and as our High Priest forever, always interceding for us with the Father. He has defeated the power of sin to condemn the believer, and He has defeated the power of death to hold us. He reconciled us to God. We too will one day be resurrected to perfect, incorruptible life, when He returns. We do not know the day or the hour of His return but His return is certain. And there will be judgement for everyone who has rejected Him. A terrible facing of the wrath of God. And at the time the devil and all who followed him will be destroyed to never prowl around tempting an deceiving again.
This is who Jesus is, and what He did, and how He did it, and why He did it. But it is not for all. It is for those who believe these things and trust in Him.

John 6:38-40

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

In Eph 2:8-9 Paul is writing to those who do believe and this is what he tells them.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The faith to believe in the person and work of Jesus is a gift from God. Pure, beautiful grace poured out from the holy, holy, holy God. Ask for it.

 

[brightfame52]

Pastor Todd Ross in his excellent work wrote this on substitution:

ABANDONED TRUTH By Tom Ross, Pastor

Substitution

Though the term substitution is nowhere used in the Scriptures it is often implied in relation to Christ's redemptive work. A substitute is one who is put in the place of another. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, suffering the wrath of God for our sins, He was acting as our substitute. Instead of God's wrath falling upon me for my sins, it fell upon Jesus Christ who acted as my replacement or substitute. Instead of the sword of God's justice smiting me to Hell it fell upon the head of my blessed Saviour. He was acting in my stead, suffering what I justly deserved, and dying the death and punishment that I had merited.

A.W. Pink defined Christ's substitution in the following way:

"Vicarious suffering is suffering endured not only on behalf of others, but in the stead of others, in the actual place of others. It therefore carries with it the exemption of the party in whose place the suffering is endured. What a substitute does for the person whose place he fills, absolves that person from the need of himself doing or suffering the same thing. Thus, when we affirm that the sufferings of Christ were vicarious we mean that He substituted Himself in the room of sinners and satisfied the law in their behalf, and that, in such a way, the law can now make no claim whatever upon them ... The Scriptures teach that Christ was in a strict and exact sense the Substitute of His people, i.e., that by Divine appointment and of His own free will, He assumed all their liabilities, took their law-place, and bound Himself to do in their stead all that the law demanded, rendering to it that obedience upon which their wellbeing depended, and suffering its penalty which their sins deserved. Christ became their vicarious Sponsor, assuming their obligations and undertaking to satisfy Divine justice on their behalf." 18

The substitutionary work of the Lord Jesus Christ was foreshadowed in Israel's ritual on the Day of Atonement. The High Priest was to select two goats to be presented unto the Lord. One goat was to be slain as a sin offering and his blood sprinkled upon the mercy seat seven times (indicating perfection) to make atonement for the transgressions of the children of Israel for that year. Then Aaron was to place both of his hands upon the head of the live goat and confess the iniquities of the children of Israel. This goat was then led out in to the wilderness by a fit man bearing away the sins of Israel into a land not inhabited. The sins of a specific people were transferred or imputed to the head of an innocent victim who was to bear them away. This is precisely what Jesus Christ did for His people. He was slain in their stead, and He also bore away their sins to a place uninhabited, namely death and the grave. He was our Divine scapegoat appointed by God to act as our substitute. Isaiah 53:6 declares: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Milburn Cockrell wrote:

"The Father laid the sins of all believers on Christ, as the sins of the offerer were laid upon the sacrifice and those of all Israel upon the head of the scapegoat. How comforting this statement should be to us! When the Father took them away from us and put them on Christ, then we no longer have them. The Father can spare us because He "spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). Nothing can be laid to the charge of God's elect because God the Father has justified us "freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). 19

How the teaching of Christ's substitutionary death ought to humble the hearts of God's people! Everything He suffered was because He was acting on our behalf. He was born in poverty because we are spiritually bankrupt. He was made under the law because we had violated it. He took upon himself a body of flesh in order to be judged for our sins and to "condemn sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3). He was falsely tried and accused of blasphemy because we were guilty before God of wicked crimes. He was humiliated, beaten, and spat upon in order to endure the shame of our sins. He was nailed to the cursed tree because we were cursed with a curse. He cried, "I thirst", because that would have been our lamentable woe in the Lake of Fire. He was forsaken by His Father because that would have been our eternal fate. He suffered the equivalent of the second death so that we could enjoy the blessedness of eternal life. What love and grace is manifested in the substitutionary death of our Lord! "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (II Cor. 5:21) When the teaching of Christ's substitutionary death is rightly understood, the theory of a universal or provisional atonement must be abandoned as worthless and dishonoring to our blessed Lord. How foolish it is to suppose that Christ would bear the sins of all men and suffer the wrath of God on their behalf and yet not secure the salvation of any. Such an idea casts reproach upon the character of God and His justice.

I conclude this section with a quote from the Prince of Preachers, C.H. Spurgeon:

"They [certain 'divines'] believe that Judas was atoned for just as much as Peter; they believe that the damned in Hell were as much the object of Jesus Christ's satisfaction as the saved in Heaven; and though they do not say it in proper words, yet they must man it, for it is a fair inference, that in the case of multitudes, Christ died in vain, for He died for them all, they say; and yet so ineffectual was His dying for them, that though he died for them they are damned afterward. Now, such an atonement I despise--I reject it. I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe in a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than an universal atonement that is not efficacious, except the will of man be joined with it." 20

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Carbon,

Just justification - justified justification - through the doing of justice in penal substitution is integral to the message of the gospel.
..... what are everyone's thoughts on Packer's words?

I believe that Jesus is our representative, not our substitute. Jesus as a human, a descendant of Adam through Mary, came under the effects of Adam's transgression, and this includes suffering and mortality. Adam was sentenced to return to the dust because of his sin, and thus death was introduced for all his descendants. Jesus, in submitting voluntarily to suffering and death acknowledged God's justice, his righteousness in submitting mankind to this, and when He suffered death he was able to lay the basis for his resurrection, as he had never sinned. The just reason for the sentence of Genesis 3:19 was no longer valid for Jesus, and the grave could not hold him. His flesh did not see corruption, and he did not return to the dust. Because God the Father's character of love for His Son, and because of His Justice and Mercy, God raised Him from the dead to resume the fellowship that He loved to share with Him. By this process Jesus opened the way to immortal life which was bestowed upon Him some time after His resurrection from the grave. When we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name we are motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water and as a result we receive forgiveness of sins.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carbon,

I decided to add a few more comments about Christ as our representative, rather than as our substitute and this will be an expansion of one aspect from my previous post. I would like to quote a few Scriptures and my understanding of these form part of the foundation of my understanding of this subject and I should imagine that my view even on these verses differs from most on this forum.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The serpent claimed that God had lied, and that they would not die, but here, clearly, Adam was sentenced to suffer and then return to the dust. There is no mention of an immortal soul which would go to heaven or hell at death.

Genesis 3:22–24 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
This reference also confirms that man was not destined to immediately live for ever. Adam was expelled out of the Garden so that he would not be able to grasp the tree of life and live for ever. The above to keep the way of the tree of life also indicates that eventually under certain conditions the tree of life would become available.

Daniel 12:1–3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
The above confirms that man returns to the dust and will perish and apart from a resurrection for some in the last days.

Romans 5:12 (KJV): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 (KJV): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Both of these NT references confirm what we have established, that because of sin man is destined to return to the dust and apart from a resurrection to life man would perish.

Now relevant to the subject of the thread, Jesus was a mortal, subject to death because he was also a descendant of Adam through Mary. He was destined to die, either by the hands of men, like Abel, or he could have lived an old age and then died, or God could have intervened and said, he has undergone trial and perfection sufficiently, and changed him from mortality to immortality. But God’s plan and purpose was that he was to die a sacrificial death, and God even planned the type of death, even crucifixion. Jesus understood this and humbly submitted to His Father’s will and volunteered to die this death. Jesus in his death fulfilled the shadow sacrifices in the Law, the sin, trespass, burnt and peace offerings, and also the Passover Lamb. Jesus did not die instead of us, as our substitute, because we still die. Yes, our death and resurrection are intimately tied up, united with our Lord’s death and resurrection, but he is not our substitute.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carbon]

I find it amazing there are many who claim that probably the most important, central, or main passage about PSA comes from Isaiah 53:4.
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
Some just keep on trying to prove scripture wrong, to no avail but, they keep trying.
I see many trying to narrow it down to one verse or passage as if PSA is held up by one verse.
They forget about, Psalm 22, the Hole chapter 53 of Isaiah, the sacrifices, etc...
They even go as far, as if they think all Christians are stupid, - there is no PSA taught in the New Testament.
Trying to take away a biblical doctrine an essential part of the gospel, I believe is heresy.

These people preach a (strange) false gospel. And Paul says this: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8.

 

[Carbon]

I find it amazing there are many who claim that probably the most important, central, or main passage about PSA comes from Isaiah 53:4.
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
Some just keep on trying to prove scripture wrong, to no avail but, they keep trying.
I see many trying to narrow it down to one verse or passage as if PSA is held up by one verse.
They forget about, Psalm 22, the Hole chapter 53 of Isaiah, the sacrifices, etc...
They even go as far, as if they think all Christians are stupid, - there is no PSA taught in the New Testament.
Trying to take away a biblical doctrine an essential part of the gospel, I believe is heresy.

These people preach a (strange) false gospel. And Paul says this: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8.

Oddly enough some even claim there are only two verses in Isaiah that PSA is founded on. I have found at times, many who claim this are Dispensational which I believe has a special way to distort the truths in the OT. Especially the OT sacrifices. I have spoken with some who are so narrow-minded and hardened they can no longer even deal with considering another interpretation. I actually knew one person who received much of their theology from a Mennonite. This person, after denying the PSA, hit that slippery slope. He now denies many essential Christian doctrines.

For those who agree with the essential biblical doctrine of PSA, just be careful. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Oddly enough some even claim there are only two verses in Isaiah that PSA is founded on.

The truth of substitutionary atonement is woven throughout Scripture. In Romans 8 Paul writes “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus … for what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh” (Rom 8:1, 3). The law was unable to save us from the penalty of Sin or to set us free from the power of Sin. So God did for us what we could not do for ourselves by sending His own Son.
Other passages such as 2 Cor 5:12, Gal 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24 also tell us that "in Jesus’ death the damnation that sin deserved was meted out fully and finally, so that sinners over whose heads that condemnation had hung might be liberated from this threat once and for all."

For those struggling with the idea of substitutionary atonement, I am not suriprised given some ways this has been presented by some in the church - with language that seems to contradict the loving nature of God. But we must understand that the holy God is angry at sin, but it is not as if he decides to take his anger out on an innocent 3rd part. Jesus is God - the second person of the blessed trinity. The work of the cross is a work of the Godhead together. Flemming Rutledge puts it this way: “The Son and the Father are doing this [the atonement] in concert, by the power of the Spirit. This interposition of the Son between human beings and the curse of God upon Sin is a project of the three persons. The sentence of accursedness has fallen upon Jesus on our behalf and in our place, by his own decree as the second person”

Also remember what Paul said "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3). So to understand the atonement, we have to understand the Old Testament. And it is in the Old Testament that we see the foundation laid for substitutionary atonement (in the sacrificial system and Day of Atonement) and divine victory (seen in the Passover and Exodus) - as well as other aspects of the atonement but these are the 2 main overarching ones.

For those struggling with the idea of substitutionary atonement, this article may clear away some misconceptions:

Myth Busting Penal Substitutionary Atonement

The Fuss Over Penal Substitutionary Atonement What is Penal Substitutionary Atonement? Well, to parse the terms, we are dealing something penal (a punishment that is meted out), something substitutionary (Christ dies in our stead), and an atonement (what reconciles us to God). To expand upon...

michaelfbird.substack.com

 

[Ladodgers6]

In terms of the OT patterns of atoning sacrifices prefiguring Christ's sacrifice, Packer is, of course, 100% Biblical.

The OT sacrifices were penalties for sin (Lev 5:6-7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43).
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for our sin.

The second person of the Trinity, the divine Son of God, left his throne and glory in heaven to become man (Jn 1:1, 14)
to pay the penalty for our sin, that the Father might remit our sin debt, we be reconciled, adopted as Christ's brethren and
even sharing in his own personal inheritance.

And to provide us the positive righteousness to enter heaven. The Free-Gift of the Gospel is that by One Man's Act of Obedience in fulfilling the broken Covenant of Works that the first Adam breached by his disobedience. The Last Adam fulfilled it with his perfect flawless obedience, and is given as a Free-Gift of righteousness to those who believe apart from works of the Law. Relying not on their human effort, if that is even possible, but resting, and trusting in him who justifies the ungodly in his Son through Faith Alone!

PSA takes care of our sins, punishment, death, condemnation and curse. And Justification by Faith gives us the righteousness God demands to enter heaven, and gives us peace with God in Christ.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Relationship is now restored, and have PEACE with our Father, no longer a righteous Judge!​

 

[Ladodgers6]

I would say that there needed an explanation for that phrase - `in the OT, the sacrifice of an animal. `

`For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.` (Heb. 10: 4)

It is only because God made that way in the OT BECAUSE of what Christ would do.

They were types and shadows of the coming Messiah, who would take away the sins of the world. The first shedding of animal blood to make garments of skin for Adam and Eve and the Jewish sacrificial system were both foreshadows of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Lamb of God laid down His life to pay the price for our sin (1 John 3:16; 4:9–10). Jesus did this not just to cover our sins but to take them away altogether. In His grace and mercy, He strips away the inadequate work of our own hands and clothes us in His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). By faith in Jesus Christ, we are entirely covered (Romans 3:21–31). We are freed from guilt, shame, and nakedness. Jesus does for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

This is one of my favorite Chapters, which is explicitly PSA teaching.

1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?a
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.​

 

[Eleanor]

And to provide us the positive righteousness to enter heaven. The Free-Gift of the Gospel is that by One Man's Act of Obedience in fulfilling the broken Covenant of Works​

How does that work?

RIghteousness has never been by law-keeping, it has always been by faith (Gal 3:11), even before the law (Ge 15:6).
The law was not given to make righteous, it was given only to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).
Fulfilling the covenant of works is not righteousness, only faith is righteousness.(Ro 1:17, 21).
Would not Jesus' righteousess be from the fact that he was born righteous (as Adam was created righteous), and he never lost it by disobedience as Adam did?

that the first Adam breached by his disobedience. The Last Adam fulfilled it with his perfect flawless obedience, and is given as a Free-Gift of righteousness to those who believe apart from works of the Law. Relying not on their human effort, if that is even possible, but resting, and trusting in him who justifies the ungodly in his Son through Faith Alone!

PSA takes care of our sins, punishment, death, condemnation and curse. And Justification by Faith gives us the righteousness God demands to enter heaven, and gives us peace with God in Christ.​

Keeping in mind that justification (dikaiosis) is a forensic righteousness only, a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court (debt paid, time served, reconciled).
Actual righteousness is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Relationship is now restored, and have PEACE with our Father, no longer a righteous Judge!​

 

[Eleanor]

I find it amazing there are many who claim that probably the most important, central, or main passage about PSA comes from Isaiah 53:4.
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
Some just keep on trying to prove scripture wrong, to no avail but, they keep trying.
I see many trying to narrow it down to one verse or passage as if PSA is held up by one verse.
They forget about, Psalm 22, the Hole chapter 53 of Isaiah, the sacrifices, etc...
They even go as far, as if they think all Christians are stupid, - there is no PSA taught in the New Testament.
Trying to take away a biblical doctrine an essential part of the gospel, I believe is heresy.

These people preach a (strange) false gospel. And Paul says this: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8.

Not to mention the OT sacrificial system where the perfect animal died for the sinner's sin in his place.

Penal (death) substitutionery (for the sinner) atonement (dealing with his sin).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Carbon and others (Sereni-tea, Ladodgers6 and Eleanor),

They even go as far, as if they think all Christians are stupid, - there is no PSA taught in the New Testament.
Trying to take away a biblical doctrine an essential part of the gospel, I believe is heresy.

I have addressed all of you as each of you have affirmed PSA but possibly not in the very strong terms as quoted above. I suggest that PSA is either correct or wrong and I can understand the strong feelings expressed by those who have held this view and consider it an essential doctrine. I have been interested in the subject of the Atonement and in my own fellowship this has been a subject that has been discussed over many years with a range of opinions. I encountered a different view and this seemed to me strange at the time when I was 16, over 60 years ago, and since then I have heard this subject discussed and documented many times, and I have gradually formed what I consider to be a reasonable assessment of the Bible teaching.

To state my position very clearly, I find the concept of PSA very difficult to accept and some reasons for this is the result of the other doctrines that I espouse, and these are possibly different from what most on this thread accept. The first of these I have explained in Posts #46 and #47 that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul. Now I have a problem with PSA here on this aspect as I believe that Adam was sentenced to die, and to return to the dust and as such he would cease to exist. Now if Jesus is our substitute and has taken our punishment, then he should have died instead of us, and not be raised from the dead. But Jesus died and was resurrected and we still die.

Not only is there a problem as a result of the anticipated death of Adam in Genesis 3:19 as the punishment upon Adam, there is also mentioned in the same passage that Adam would be subject to suffering:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The subject of suffering is wide ranging, but again I cannot understand how PSA applies here. Jesus suffered, but the descendants of Adam including the faithful still suffer. Mankind in general have come under this curse upon the earth, possibly relieved in some countries by mechanisation, but this is not a direct result of the sacrifice of Christ. Also many of the faithful have suffered before the crucifixion, Abel. Job and Joseph and many others, and this did not change after the crucifixion, for example Stephen, James, Paul, Peter and John suffered. So as such, the sufferings of Christ is not a substitute in order that the faithful do not suffer, but instead these ALL suffered after the same pattern of Christ's suffering. Thus here we are moving away from PSA concepts, and start revealing that Jesus is our representative.

Also the whole Book of Job considers the subject of "Why does a righteous man suffer" and a consideration of this subject helps to understand the sufferings of Christ. One of our expositors suggested that one of the main themes is to answer the faulty syllogism:
Suffering is the result of sin; Job is a great sufferer; therefore Job must be a great sinner.
A proper study and understanding of the Book of Job lays a proper basis to better understand the sufferings of Christ, and this also moves away from PSA concepts and comes closer to the belief that Jesus suffered as our representative.

Then there is the concept that PSA claims, that God punishes the innocent so that the guilty can go free. This is simply a travesty of justice, and does not in any way declare God's righteousness or justice. Also PSA cannot speak about the forgiveness of sins, if the penalty has been paid.

There are many other aspects that could be considered, and some of the verses and words that @Carbon has used and quoted. But this post is too long already. I should imagine that he still considers that I am a heretic, but I feel confident that my understanding of the Atonement is closer to what the Bible teaches.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carbon]

Greetings again Carbon and others (Sereni-tea, Ladodgers6 and Eleanor),

Greetings.

I have addressed all of you as each of you have affirmed PSA but possibly not in the very strong terms as quoted above.

Im sorry you think that was calling you aa heretic. I assure you I am not, and if you read what I wrote, "Trying to take away a biblical doctrine an essential part of the gospel, I believe is heresy." Do you disagree? Or do you think it is Christlike to distort and try and take away the truth?

Personally, I do not see you doing that yet. I see you more as not being 100% settled. I also believe if you study and understand scripture you will accept it also.

I suggest that PSA is either correct or wrong and I can understand the strong feelings expressed by those who have held this view and consider it an essential doctrine.

Of course, it's either correct or wrong. What other option is there?

Do you understand?
Once you have understood what Christ has come to do, what he endured; once you see imputation taught in scripture in both the OT and NT, once you realize he did this in our place as scripture teaches, and how he endured the Father's wrath in our place, you will then agree "by removing this doctrine, you lose the gospel."

I have been interested in the subject of the Atonement and in my own fellowship this has been a subject that has been discussed over many years with a range of opinions. I encountered a different view and this seemed to me strange at the time when I was 16, over 60 years ago, and since then I have heard this subject discussed and documented many times, and I have gradually formed what I consider to be a reasonable assessment of the Bible teaching.

Please explain your view.

To state my position very clearly, I find the concept of PSA very difficult to accept and some reasons for this is the result of the other doctrines that I espouse, and these are possibly different from what most on this thread accept. The first of these I have explained in Posts #46 and #47 that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul.

I see where you stated Jesus is our representative, not our substitute. in post 46. Ill reply there also.

Now I have a problem with PSA here on this aspect as I believe that Adam was sentenced to die, and to return to the dust and as such he would cease to exist. Now if Jesus is our substitute and has taken our punishment, then he should have died instead of us, and not be raised from the dead. But Jesus died and was resurrected and we still die.

Looks to me like you have a few things (errors) mixed together. Do I understand you as saying if Jesus was our substitute, he would never have risen again? But would still be in the grave? Wow!

Not only is there a problem as a result of the anticipated death of Adam in Genesis 3:19 as the punishment upon Adam, there is also mentioned in the same passage that Adam would be subject to suffering:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The subject of suffering is wide ranging, but again I cannot understand how PSA applies here. Jesus suffered, but the descendants of Adam including the faithful still suffer.

I think your misunderstanding stretches much further than PSA.

Mankind in general have come under this curse upon the earth, possibly relieved in some countries by mechanisation, but this is not a direct result of the sacrifice of Christ. Also many of the faithful have suffered before the crucifixion, Abel. Job and Joseph and many others, and this did not change after the crucifixion, for example Stephen, James, Paul, Peter and John suffered. So as such, the sufferings of Christ is not a substitute in order that the faithful do not suffer, but instead these ALL suffered after the same pattern of Christ's suffering. Thus here we are moving away from PSA concepts, and start revealing that Jesus is our representative.

Because people, both unsaved and saved, there is no PSA?
That is such a silly argument, I won't reply to that.

Also the whole Book of Job considers the subject of "Why does a righteous man suffer" and a consideration of this subject helps to understand the sufferings of Christ. One of our expositors suggested that one of the main themes is to answer the faulty syllogism:
Suffering is the result of sin; Job is a great sufferer; therefore Job must be a great sinner.
A proper study and understanding of the Book of Job lays a proper basis to better understand the sufferings of Christ, and this also moves away from PSA concepts and comes closer to the belief that Jesus suffered as our representative.

Then there is the concept that PSA claims, that God punishes the innocent so that the guilty can go free. This is simply a travesty of justice, and does not in any way declare God's righteousness or justice. Also PSA cannot speak about the forgiveness of sins, if the penalty has been paid.

Wow, I am surprised by your lack of understanding. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, I am just not good at saying things any other way but right out and bluntly.

There are many other aspects that could be considered, and some of the verses and words that @Carbon has used and quoted. But this post is too long already. I should imagine that he still considers that I am a heretic, but I feel confident that my understanding of the Atonement is closer to what the Bible teaches.

Kind regards
Trevor

I believe you bought into some heretical teachings. But I don't know enough about you to claim ou are a heretic. I see a lot of misunderstanding in your beliefs according to your replies to make such a judgment. It may be best to stick with one point at a time.

 

[Carbon]

Greetings Carbon,

I believe that Jesus is our representative, not our substitute. Jesus as a human, a descendant of Adam through Mary, came under the effects of Adam's transgression, and this includes suffering and mortality. Adam was sentenced to return to the dust because of his sin, and thus death was introduced for all his descendants. Jesus, in submitting voluntarily to suffering and death acknowledged God's justice, his righteousness in submitting mankind to this, and when He suffered death he was able to lay the basis for his resurrection, as he had never sinned. The just reason for the sentence of Genesis 3:19 was no longer valid for Jesus, and the grave could not hold him. His flesh did not see corruption, and he did not return to the dust. Because God the Father's character of love for His Son, and because of His Justice and Mercy, God raised Him from the dead to resume the fellowship that He loved to share with Him. By this process Jesus opened the way to immortal life which was bestowed upon Him some time after His resurrection from the grave. When we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name we are motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water and as a result we receive forgiveness of sins.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus is both our representative and substitute. It may do you good to study the OT, Lev 16, Isaiah 53, etc... These plus others (If you like I can give you more).

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Carbon and others (Sereni-tea, Ladodgers6 and Eleanor),


I have addressed all of you as each of you have affirmed PSA but possibly not in the very strong terms as quoted above. I suggest that PSA is either correct or wrong and I can understand the strong feelings expressed by those who have held this view and consider it an essential doctrine. I have been interested in the subject of the Atonement and in my own fellowship this has been a subject that has been discussed over many years with a range of opinions. I encountered a different view and this seemed to me strange at the time when I was 16, over 60 years ago, and since then I have heard this subject discussed and documented many times, and I have gradually formed what I consider to be a reasonable assessment of the Bible teaching.

To state my position very clearly, I find the concept of PSA very difficult to accept and some reasons for this is the result of the other doctrines that I espouse, and these are possibly different from what most on this thread accept. The first of these I have explained in Posts #46 and #47 that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul. Now I have a problem with PSA here on this aspect as I believe that Adam was sentenced to die, and to return to the dust and as such he would cease to exist. Now if Jesus is our substitute and has taken our punishment, then he should have died instead of us, and not be raised from the dead. But Jesus died and was resurrected and we still die.

Not only is there a problem as a result of the anticipated death of Adam in Genesis 3:19 as the punishment upon Adam, there is also mentioned in the same passage that Adam would be subject to suffering:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The subject of suffering is wide ranging, but again I cannot understand how PSA applies here. Jesus suffered, but the descendants of Adam including the faithful still suffer. Mankind in general have come under this curse upon the earth, possibly relieved in some countries by mechanisation, but this is not a direct result of the sacrifice of Christ. Also many of the faithful have suffered before the crucifixion, Abel. Job and Joseph and many others, and this did not change after the crucifixion, for example Stephen, James, Paul, Peter and John suffered. So as such, the sufferings of Christ is not a substitute in order that the faithful do not suffer, but instead these ALL suffered after the same pattern of Christ's suffering. Thus here we are moving away from PSA concepts, and start revealing that Jesus is our representative.

Also the whole Book of Job considers the subject of "Why does a righteous man suffer" and a consideration of this subject helps to understand the sufferings of Christ. One of our expositors suggested that one of the main themes is to answer the faulty syllogism:
Suffering is the result of sin; Job is a great sufferer; therefore Job must be a great sinner.
A proper study and understanding of the Book of Job lays a proper basis to better understand the sufferings of Christ, and this also moves away from PSA concepts and comes closer to the belief that Jesus suffered as our representative.

Then there is the concept that PSA claims, that God punishes the innocent so that the guilty can go free. This is simply a travesty of justice, and does not in any way declare God's righteousness or justice. Also PSA cannot speak about the forgiveness of sins, if the penalty has been paid.

There are many other aspects that could be considered, and some of the verses and words that @Carbon has used and quoted. But this post is too long already. I should imagine that he still considers that I am a heretic, but I feel confident that my understanding of the Atonement is closer to what the Bible teaches.

Kind regards
Trevor

You do not address the OT sacrificial system here, the death of a perfect animal in the place of the sinner, which was the pattern for Christ's sacrifice.

Penal (death) substitionary (of the animal) atonement (for remission of sin).

 

[Sereni-tea]

Then there is the concept that PSA claims, that God punishes the innocent so that the guilty can go free. This is simply a travesty of justice, and does not in any way declare God's righteousness or justice. Also PSA cannot speak about the forgiveness of sins, if the penalty has been paid.

Hi @TrevorL,
On the cross, the Lord Jesus Christ bore the curse of sin for us. But He did more than that. He won the divine victory over the forces of darkness, over Sin, Death and Satan. He triumphed over the spiritual rulers of this world, thereby delivering His people, just as God did through Moses in the Exodus.

But He could only do that because of who He is - the Son of God, the second person of the blessed Trinity. You see, all the themes of the atonement (of which substitution is one) only make sense if Jesus is not just a human but is actually God incarnate. Then we see the Substitution, not as God punishing an innocent third party, but actually as the work of the Trinity itself - Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together. As I quoted above:
“The Son and the Father are doing this [the atonement] in concert, by the power of the Spirit. This interposition of the Son between human beings and the curse of God upon Sin is a project of the three persons. The sentence of accursedness has fallen upon Jesus on our behalf and in our place, by his own decree as the second person”

You see, God is spirit and cannot die. But by taking on human form, the Son (who is God) was willingly able to take on the curse on our behalf, as our representative and substitute, dying on the cross, accomplishing what was necessary for us to receive forgiveness of sin and be brought into the covenant community of God.