Penal Substitution

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,



Yes, the same banner twice and no discussion. I will not elaborate a thorough response but briefly mention "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 and the partial personification of the "Word" in Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:8-11. Please also refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name".

Kind regards
Trevor

Jn 1:1, 14 are not "personification," they are person.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,
Yes, the same banner twice and no discussion. I will not elaborate a thorough response but briefly mention "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 and the partial personification of the "Word" in Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:8-11. Please also refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name".
Kind regards
Trevor

Previously addressed.

 

[Eleanor]

A God Who cannot be understood through the reason He has endowed us with cannot be obeyed, yet God in the Bible says: "come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18).

Oh, he can be understood, we just don't like what we are understanding, and so we pretend that we can't.

Feel free to present something you don't understand through reason and we can take a look at it.

 

[Ladodgers6]

A God Who cannot be understood through the reason He has endowed us with cannot be obeyed, yet God in the Bible says: "come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18).

And what does the heart of a sinner want or desire? Is it God?

The Unfaithful City
Isaiah 1

21How the faithful city
has become a whore,
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
22Your silver has become dross,
your best wine mixed with water.
23Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
and the widow’s cause does not come to them.​

 

[Lifeson]

Oh, he can be understood, we just don't like what we are understanding, and so we pretend that we can't.

Feel free to present something you don't understand through reason and we can take a look at it.

You said that God is not governed by human logic. What do you mean by "being governed"? Human logic, which is improperly called "human" because He Himself created it, is the sole means through which we make sense of the surrounding reality. If something is unassessable through said means, we cannot understand it. If God strays from said logic, as you seem to imply that He does, we cannot understand Him.

For example, we know that blue is a color and high-pitched refers to sounds. If God decided to make the sky high-pitched instead of blue, we wouldn't know how to make sense of that.

 

[Eleanor]

You said that God is not governed by human logic. What do you mean by "being governed"? Human logic, which is improperly called "human" because He Himself created it, is the sole means through which we make sense of the surrounding reality.

It's not the surrounding reality that saves you from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin.

If something is unassessable through said means, we cannot understand it. If God strays from said logic, as you seem to imply that He does, we cannot understand Him.

For example, we know that blue is a color and high-pitched refers to sounds. If God decided to make the sky high-pitched instead of blue, we wouldn't know how to make sense of that.

Does Ro 9:14-21 make sense to you?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker,

Jn 1:1, 14 are not "personification," they are person.

John 1:14 is speaking about Jesus, and John 1:1 is speaking about The Word. I was browsing "New Posts" this morning and encountered Eleanor's large post (#302) in the thread "God-man". I have reviewed this now and also found that Red Baker also had an extensive post (#301) immediately above the one by Eleanor. As that is in the Oneness sub forum I do not want to be involved in that forum and possibly I would not be allowed. Also a thorough discussion of John 1:1,14 is really off topic in this present forum. Possibly down the track I may address both of you in one of the Trinity threads.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lifeson]

It's not the surrounding reality that saves you from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin.

A rational omniscient God would not be wrathful because He would know all the factors that contributed to shaping one's behavior.

Does Ro 9:14-21 make sense to you?

Those statements go against the nature of God, so they present a false view of God. God is not like a human tyrant. God does not arbitrarily have mercy on some and not on others. People who strive to seek and obey God will be favored. We see that all throughout the Old Testament.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Greetings again Sereni-tea and Red Baker,

There are many Scriptures and prophecies that clearly teach of the uniqueness of the sinless Son of God, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Yah's Salvation. I used a figure to illustrate, driving in a nail, and you reject my understanding by almost claiming that I believe in a tack hammer "mere man", but you insist on a sledge hammer "the deity of Christ is absolutely essential to the Atonement". God achieved the desired result by giving birth to Jesus, educating him, guiding him and bringing him to perfection by the things that he suffered. Your view effectively ignores all of this. Also there was no anger directed against Jesus by hs Loving Father. Was God angry against Abel, Joseph, Job, the Apostles and all the faithful who have suffered?

I understand your illustration. The difference between us is our understanding of what Jesus came to do. In your illustration, you see Jesus as coming to hammer in a small nail (though I am not really sure what that represents), whereas I believe the Bible teachers that Jesus came to break down an enormous wall of hostility, of Sin and Death and the powers of darkness. He came to redeem His people, to take upon Himself our Sin and the curse of the law, so that through Him we can have forgiveness of sin and restored relationship with God. Please explain to me how you think a mere human could do this. And if one human could do this, why not everyone?

I don't know what you think when you hear us talk about the 'wrath of God' but I know that there are a lot of misconceptions out there about it. Some will conjure up images of a vindictive old man waiting to unleash his anger on someone. From what you have written I sense maybe this is the sort of idea you have? In any case, this sort of image is totally wrong. When the Bible talks about the wrath of God, it is a figurative way of expressing God's opposition at anything that would hurt or destroy His good creation. His anger is righteous anger.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker,

John 1:14 is speaking about Jesus, and John 1:1 is speaking about The Word. I was browsing "New Posts" this morning and encountered Eleanor's large post (#302) in the thread "God-man". I have reviewed this now and also found that Red Baker also had an extensive post (#301) immediately above the one by Eleanor. As that is in the Oneness sub forum I do not want to be involved in that forum and possibly I would not be allowed. Also a thorough discussion of John 1:1,14 is really off topic in this present forum. Possibly down the track I may address both of you in one of the Trinity threads.

Kind regards
Trevor

Please do so~and pray the leaders of this forum allow you to do so, so all can learn. You at least conduct yourself in a godly manner, I do not agree with you, but discourses are workable/and useful with men like you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Sereni-tea and Red Baker,

Please explain to me how you think a mere human could do this. And if one human could do this, why not everyone?

I have already stated that I consider that Jesus is not "a mere human" as he is a unique human, the Son of God, the son of Mary and he did not sin and he revealed the full character of God His Father, as he was full of grace and truth John 1:14. He was specially raised up by God to accomplish salvation. No one else has been raised up to accomplish such a huge task. Perhaps the trouble with using a figure, an example, something of what I was trying to convey got lost.

The following are only a small example of the uniqueness of Jesus and I consider all of these are not stating that Jesus will be successful because he is God the Son:
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 42:1–7 (KJV): 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 49:1–6 (KJV): 1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

Luke 1:67–75 (KJV): 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Please do so~and pray the leaders of this forum allow you to do so, so all can learn. You at least conduct yourself in a godly manner, I do not agree with you, but discourses are workable/and useful with men like you.

I appreciate your kind words, but there was a rule established on another forum (not this forum, not CCF) that I could interact directly with someone who belonged to the category of that forum, but not with those who were contending with that person. In other words I could discuss with the Oneness person on his allocated sub-forum, but I could not answer your and others extensive list on the subject of the Trinity on that sub-forum. Even in practical terms a three way discussion becomes difficult.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker,

John 1:14 is speaking about Jesus, and John 1:1 is speaking about The Word.

And Jn 1:1 and 1:14 are about the same person, Jesus.

John 1:14 is speaking about Jesus, and John 1:1 is speaking about The Word. I was browsing "New Posts" this morning and encountered Eleanor's large post (#302) in the thread "God-man". I have reviewed this now and also found that Red Baker also had an extensive post (#301) immediately above the one by Eleanor. As that is in the Oneness sub forum I do not want to be involved in that forum and possibly I would not be allowed. Also a thorough discussion of John 1:1,14 is really off topic in this present forum. Possibly down the track I may address both of you in one of the Trinity threads.

Be prepared to Biblically demonstrate the error in post #302 when you do.

 

[Eleanor]

A rational omniscient God would not be wrathful because He would know all the factors that contributed to shaping one's behavior.

That would be your finite opinion in contradiction to Scripture.

Does Ro 9:14-21 make sense to you?

Those statements go against the nature of God, so they present a false view of God. God is not like a human tyrant. God does not arbitrarily have mercy on some and not on others. People who strive to seek and obey God will be favored. We see that all throughout the Old Testament.

Then the issue simple: you do not believe Scripture, which leaves us no ground for discussion.

 

[Red Baker]

I appreciate your kind words, but there was a rule established on another forum (not this forum, not CCF) that I could interact directly with someone who belonged to the category of that forum, but not with those who were contending with that person. In other words I could discuss with the Oneness person on his allocated sub-forum, but I could not answer your and others extensive list on the subject of the Trinity on that sub-forum. Even in practical terms a three way discussion becomes difficult.

Kind regards
Trevor

I was unaware of what went on behind closed doors among the moderators and members.

 

[TrevorL]

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