Penal Substitution

[Sereni-tea]

Sister, I think it is pretty clear what scripture teaches Christ has done for his elect.
I also think one of the biggest problems that come into play is sin and His’s holiness.

That is certainly a big problem in the church today.

We have cheapened sin. Sin is not as sinful any longer. And the god humans have created don’t see sin so bad any longer either. Even though in the COR the Trinity agreed on the plan of redemption. Humans just can’t deal with it.

God's plan was always to reconcile all things in Christ.

Indeed.

Don’t know what you mean by putting the world right, since there will be a new one. But the Trinity is dealing with sin.

I mean God dealing with Sin that has us in bondage, setting us free to be the people we were always meant to be - rulers over His creation, His Image bearers; reflecting His glory into this world of darkness and reflecting the praises of creation back to Him. I am talking about God reconciling us to Himself so that He can do what He always wanted and dwell with His people. I am talking about atonement and deliverance.

We have offended a Holy God.

And someone had to stand in our place. God cannot just let sin pass

We need to understand the atonement in its context of God's love.

I believe we all do. Just the measure of grace stops me in my tracks.

Indeed.

To know that God Himself condescended to us as a man. The pure, good, holy, righteous Son of God, creator of the universe, came to us, to take on wrath and die in our place. We do not know the love of God! And we do not fear God.

Agreed.

When we have some people tainted by Catholicism try to change the meaning of the cross and injecting teaching that confuse people into believing lies, the cross is distorted.

I think it is very important to know and meditate on,
We are saved from God, by God.

I am not sure what you mean by tainted by Catholicism, nor am I sure exactly where we are disagreeing. I am with you that substitution is vital to the message of the Cross, but it is only one part. Christ didn't just die in our place, He also won the victory over the powers of Sin, over the dark political and spiritual rulers/principalities of this world. As I said atonement and deliverance are the two overarching themes that explain what Christ did on the Cross. But both are needed together otherwise the message is distorted, and many today take one without the other.

 

[Carbon]

That is certainly a big problem in the church today.

We need to understand the atonement in its context of God's love.

If God didn’t love his chosen, if He wasn’t just, or had no wrath, there wouldn’t be an atonement

I am not sure what you mean by tainted by Catholicism, nor am I sure exactly where we are disagreeing.

I just meant some teachers who disagree with the PSA have RC theology.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm going to start this thread with J. I. Packer's words.

Penal Substitution in focus,
The built-in function of the human mind that we call conscience tells everyone, uncomfortably, that when we have misbehaved we ought to suffer for it, and to that extent, conscience is truly the voice of God.

Both testaments, then, confirm that judicial retribution from God awaits all whose sins are not covered by a substitutionary sacrifice: in the Old Testament, the sacrifice of an animal; in the New Testament, the sacrifice of Christ. He, the holy Son of God in sinless human flesh, has endured what Calvin called "the pains of a condemned and lost person" so that we, trusting him as our Savior and Lord, might receive pardon for the past and a new life in him and with him for the present and the future. Tellingly Paul, having announced "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation [i.e., wrath quencher] by his blood, to be received by faith," goes on to say: "it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom, 3:24-26 ESV). Just justification - justified justification - through the doing of justice in penal substitution is integral to the message of the gospel.


I know this could be a deep subject and can cause division. So, it is very important to debate the doctrinal positions on this subject. It is very important to not attack the person. If we find it difficult to debate the doctrine and we start to attack the person, it's best if we bow out of the discussion. After having said that, what are everyone's thoughts on Packer's words?

This sounds good...

 

[Lifeson]

I believe that penal substitution is an absurdity that makes zero sense and is completely unjust. I don't think I could explain it better and more eloquently than how George MacDonald does it in his essay, "Justice".

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

www.online-literature.com

 

[Carbon]

I believe that penal substitution is an absurdity that makes zero sense and is completely unjust.

Oh that’s to bad.

I’m truly sorry to hear that

 

[Eleanor]

I believe that penal substitution is an absurdity that makes zero sense and is completely unjust. I don't think I could explain it better and more eloquently than how George MacDonald does it in his essay, "Justice".

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

www.online-literature.com

Then you don't understand the OT pattern in the sacrifices which were substitutionary and penal (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43).

And there's nothing unjust about someone else paying my debt for me.

Who made you the Arbiter of the universe that you judge its Creator and Lawgiver?

So you are not trusting on Jesus and his sacrifice for the remission of your sin?

Or you just don't think it was substitutional and penal?

Then why did Jesus say he came to die as a ransom (Mt 20:28)?
What did he mean?

 

[Lifeson]

Then you don't understand the OT pattern in the sacrifices which were substitutionary and penal (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43).

And there's nothing unjust about someone else paying my debt for me.

Who made you the Arbiter of the universe that you judge its Creator and Lawgiver?

So you are not trusting on Jesus and his sacrifice for the remission of your sin?

Or you just don't think it was substitutional and penal?

Then why did Jesus say he came to die as a ransom (Mt 20:28)?
What did he mean?

Did you read the article? I mean, I've debated this hundreds of times on dozens of forums. I'm kind of tired of it. The fact that some people can believe the absurdity that is Penal Substitution still bewilders me.
There is no debt to be paid. God clearly states in Ezekiel that all we have to do is repent and obey Him and we will be forgiven. No sacrifices needed.
Punishment serves only one purpose: rehabilitation. There is no rehabilitation achieved when someone else is punished in your place. If a person repents, there is no rehabilitation needed, for the person has already become righteous.
God is love. Love does not rejoice in punishment. Love keeps no record of wrongdoings. Justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and punishing the innocent is unjust.

 

[Eleanor]

Did you read the article? I mean, I've debated this hundreds of times on dozens of forums. I'm kind of tired of it. The fact that some people can believe the absurdity that is Penal Substitution still bewilders me.
There is no debt to be paid. God clearly states in Ezekiel that all we have to do is repent and obey Him and we will be forgiven.

Not in the NT. Salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

And forgiven because your debt is paid by Christ.

No sacrifices needed.
Punishment serves only one purpose: rehabilitation.

Who made that rule?
So how does the death penalty, which God both prescribed and used, rehabilitate?

You've got the cart before the horse.
God's justice is not patterned on man's theories.

There is no rehabilitation achieved when someone else is punished in your place. If a person repents, there is no rehabilitation needed, for the person has already become righteous.
God is love. Love does not rejoice in punishment. Love keeps no record of wrongdoings. Justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and punishing the innocent is unjust.

Cart before the horse again.

There is nothing unjust about someone paying my debt for me.

 

[Lifeson]

Not in the NT. Salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

And forgiven because your debt is paid by Christ.

Who made that rule?
So how does the death penalty, which God both prescribed and used, rehabilitate?

You've got the cart before the horse.
God's justice is not patterned on man's theories.

Cart before the horse again.

There is nothing unjust about someone paying my debt for me.

There is no rule. It's simple reason. There is nothing to be gained for anyone by punishing someone if there is no rehabilitation achieved. Who benefits from the punishment? The guilty person does not, for he remains an unrepentant sinner. God doesn't benefit either because God cannot rejoice in the suffering of others. So, reason shows us that any type of punishment that does not seek rehabilitation is cruel and absurd.

God never prescribed the death penalty. Those who were killed were rehabilitated in the afterlife.

Guilt is not transferable, God says so in the Old Testament. No man shall bear the sins of another. Jesus was fully God and fully man, so He could not bear the sins of another.

Anyways, I realize that I can't convince you. I'm merely surprised when I come across people who uphold this doctrine because I find it to be an affront to God's character.

 

[Eleanor]

There is no rule. It's simple reason.

Bible 101: God is not governed by human reasoning.

There is nothing to be gained for anyone by punishing someone if there is no rehabilitation achieved. Who benefits from the punishment? The guilty person does not, for he remains an unrepentant sinner. God doesn't benefit either because God cannot rejoice in the suffering of others. So, reason shows us that any type of punishment that does not seek rehabilitation is cruel and absurd.
God never prescribed the death penalty.
Those who were killed were rehabilitated in the afterlife.

Guilt is not transferable, God says so in the Old Testament. No man shall bear the sins of another. Jesus was fully God and fully man, so He could not bear the sins of another.

Actually, God said the son shall not bear the sins of the father; i.e., guilt is not inherited.

Adam's guilt is imputed (Ro 5:12-15, 5:18-19), and is the pattern (Ro 5:14) of Christ's righteousness being imputed.

Anyways, I realize that I can't convince you. I'm merely surprised when I come across people who uphold this doctrine because I find it to be an affront to God's character.

And I find such notion of God's character an affront to Scripture.
And unless you can Biblically demonstrate your assertions, you most definitely cannot convince me.

Needless to say, that to which I am responding here is not orthodox Christianity.

 

[Carbon]

Did you read the article? I mean, I've debated this hundreds of times on dozens of forums. I'm kind of tired of it. The fact that some people can believe the absurdity that is Penal Substitution still bewilders me.
There is no debt to be paid. God clearly states in Ezekiel that all we have to do is repent and obey Him and we will be forgiven. No sacrifices needed.
Punishment serves only one purpose: rehabilitation. There is no rehabilitation achieved when someone else is punished in your place. If a person repents, there is no rehabilitation needed, for the person has already become righteous.
God is love. Love does not rejoice in punishment. Love keeps no record of wrongdoings. Justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and punishing the innocent is unjust.

@Eleanor
don't be discouraged by this. He is either a Seventh-day or ??.

However, if this person is a seventh-day he needs to, learn his doctrine.

 

[Arial]

There is no debt to be paid. God clearly states in Ezekiel that all we have to do is repent and obey Him and we will be forgiven

The problem with that is no one can obey. You simply do not understand man's position before God nor do you understand God's position. Along with perfectly just and perfectly merciful He is also perfectly holy. He created us in His image and likeness. What do you think that means? What do you think it means that He is the Creator who made us and we are but a creature. Is God obligated to you or are you obligated to God?

The other thing you are not taking into account is Adam's sin imputed to us. Mankind has become a sinful creature and nothing he can do, no amount of repentance and feeling bad can change that. That is what Jesus defeated on the cross the power of the imputed sin of Adam to condemn us. And through faith in the person and work of Christ---His substitution for the believer on the cross, facing sins just punishment so we can receive mercy---He also provides not just forgiveness from God, but an utter wiping out of all record of our sins, and their effects, when this corruption puts on incorruption.

He made propitiation the Bible tells us. That means making a satisfaction that reconciles a man with God. God is not merciful at the expense of His justice, nor can He be. All the man centered and man oriented ways of trying to explain away what the Bible makes plain as the author you linked to was doing, using only human finite arguments and a human measurements and calculations, as though who God is was not even worth considering in the argument, will not change a thing.

Punishment serves only one purpose: rehabilitation. There is no rehabilitation achieved when someone else is punished in your place. If a person repents, there is no rehabilitation needed, for the person has already become righteous.

Punishment does not rehabilitate as often as it does. And Jesus' purpose in dying on the cross was not to rehabilitate anyone. It was to save those the Father gave Him, from their sins. And that is what He did. He is called the Savior not the Rehabilitator. And no one becomes righteous by repenting. Do you understand what righteous means in respect of God?

God is love. Love does not rejoice in punishment. Love keeps no record of wrongdoings. Justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and punishing the innocent is unjust.

There are no innocent. No one has said ever that God rejoiced in punishment. You keep using that word punishment as though it equals God taking a whip to us in anger. The perfect love of God cannot embrace sinfulness, otherwise He would not be holy.

 

[Lifeson]

@Eleanor
don't be discouraged by this. He is either a Seventh-day or ??.

However, if this person is a seventh-day he needs to, learn his doctrine.

Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory - A Sad Substitute

I was on involved in an online dialogue about atonement and redemption when the theory of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) came up. The Orthodox

liveorthodoxy.com

I'm not a practicing Christian. I am Eastern-Orthodox by baptism. I do know a few things about Christianity though. I've been reading and watching videos about it for over 5 years.

 

[Carbon]

Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory - A Sad Substitute

I was on involved in an online dialogue about atonement and redemption when the theory of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) came up. The Orthodox

liveorthodoxy.com

I'm not a practicing Christian. I am Eastern-Orthodox by baptism. I do know a few things about Christianity though. I've been reading and watching videos about it for over 5 years.

5 years? If you are studying into Christianity on your own, 5 years isn’t a long time.

 

[Arial]

@Eleanor
don't be discouraged by this. He is either a Seventh-day or ??.

However, if this person is a seventh-day he needs to, learn his doctrine.

He says Eastern-Orthodox.

 

[Lifeson]

5 years? If you are studying into Christianity on your own, 5 years isn’t a long time.

I think 5 years is a reasonable amount of time. A man has a limited lifespan and there are only so many religions one can cover within a human life.

 

[Carbon]

I think 5 years is a reasonable amount of time. A man has a limited lifespan and there are only so many religions one can cover within a human life.

Okay

 

[Carbon]

He says Eastern-Orthodox.

I stand corrected.

Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

The problem with that is no one can obey. You simply do not understand man's position before God nor do you understand God's position. Along with perfectly just and perfectly merciful He is also perfectly holy. He created us in His image and likeness. What do you think that means? What do you think it means that He is the Creator who made us and we are but a creature. Is God obligated to you or are you obligated to God?

The other thing you are not taking into account is Adam's sin imputed to us. Mankind has become a sinful creature and nothing he can do, no amount of repentance and feeling bad can change that. That is what Jesus defeated on the cross the power of the imputed sin of Adam to condemn us. And through faith in the person and work of Christ---His substitution for the believer on the cross, facing sins just punishment so we can receive mercy---He also provides not just forgiveness from God, but an utter wiping out of all record of our sins, and their effects, when this corruption puts on incorruption.

He made propitiation the Bible tells us. That means making a satisfaction that reconciles a man with God. God is not merciful at the expense of His justice, nor can He be. All the man centered and man oriented ways of trying to explain away what the Bible makes plain as the author you linked to was doing, using only human finite arguments and a human measurements and calculations, as though who God is was not even worth considering in the argument, will not change a thing.

Punishment does not rehabilitate as often as it does. And Jesus' purpose in dying on the cross was not to rehabilitate anyone. It was to save those the Father gave Him, from their sins. And that is what He did. He is called the Savior not the Rehabilitator. And no one becomes righteous by repenting. Do you understand what righteous means in respect of God?

There are no innocent. No one has said ever that God rejoiced in punishment. You keep using that word punishment as though it equals God taking a whip to us in anger. The perfect love of God cannot embrace sinfulness, otherwise He would not be holy.

AMEN!

Preach it, sister!

 

[Eleanor]

I'm not a practicing Christian. I am Eastern-Orthodox by baptism. I do know a few things about Christianity though. I've been reading and watching videos about it for over 5 years.

That is why you cannot understand nor receive penal substitution.

The Holy Spirit is needed for one to do so.