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Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

Not only this, but Paul also stated they've been held in bonds of darkness specifically for the day of judgment.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Already happened; not something yet to occur.

When Jesus speaks of the carrion eater roaming the earth for those he might devour that occurs in the context of his already being held in bandage for his already decided end. When Jesus speaks to and commands the legion of demands from one man into a herd of pigs that occurs in the context of every single on of those demons who hadn't kept their proper abode being held in the bondage of darkness await their judgement. When Paul writes about the "ruler of the air" it occurs in that context. The same things applies when John wrote about "the ruler of this world." The exact same condition exists when Revelation 20 speaks of satan being prevented from deceiving the nations for a thousand years. He was already bound before he was bound.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment...

They were cast into hell and committed to pits of darkness awaiting judgment when the sinned.

The condemnation of the angels, and the exaltation of the martyrs, all past tense and the present day reign of believers in Christ are all certainties , but not yet realized, save only for God who is omniscient.

The Satan’s angels are not yet in hell, for they are still active in this world, but hell is still their eventual destiny, that destiny is their bondage. The certainty of their doom is their bondage to darkness.

The martyrs are not yet dead, and may not even be alive yet for all we know, but they will die in the events of Rev 13, and they will cry out “how long O Lord”, and he will tell them to “be patient and wait a little longer” because the number of their fellow martyrs is not yet complete. Their white robes of righteousness are the certainties that the martyrs are “bound” to. To us, it is yet to happen, to God it is certain. God knows perfectly, we accept by faith! The certainty of their “bondage” to their future glory!

Living believers reign in this life, because we are presently “free from sin” and its power and reign of us! This is the certainty of those to whom Paul initially wrote and to we who believe presently or will in the future. The promise of God was there and is our certainly through faith, this we can and do write in the present tense about yet unfulfilled realities.

Moreover, John is writing what he sees in the present tense, but the visions he sees are “what must soon take place” (Rev 1:1) that is, future events that are yet to happen, but are certain. So his visions are seen in real time in John’s present tense, but what he is seeing presently is yet to happen in his real present timeline. And by his instructions, “which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea”, and thus, seeing is a present tense event, he writes in the present tense.


Doug
 
Aside from parable which Jesus later explained He taught plainly. The prophets taught symbolically
Jesus did not always explain his parables. Paul was not talking symbolically! John didn’t always speak symbolically! It is a mistake to say that because something is described with a metaphorical image, ie, the beast with multiple heads and ten crowns, that it is mere symbolism.

Perhaps what he saw was an unfathomable event to those in John’s day. What, for example, would missile fire look like to John? Might he describe it as stars falling from the skies? (I’m not saying that is his meaning, just that today’s technology would not be explainable by a first century observer.)


Doug
 
Jesus did not always explain his parables. Paul was not talking symbolically! John didn’t always speak symbolically! It is a mistake to say that because something is described with a metaphorical image, ie, the beast with multiple heads and ten crowns, that it is mere symbolism.

Perhaps what he saw was an unfathomable event to those in John’s day. What, for example, would missile fire look like to John? Might he describe it as stars falling from the skies? (I’m not saying that is his meaning, just that today’s technology would not be explainable by a first century observer.)


Doug
How can you say that the description of the beast isn’t symbolic? Even John said the they were for 7 kings in chapter 17?
Do you believe that satan is a literal dragon?
 
How can you say that the description of the beast isn’t symbolic? Even John said the they were for 7 kings in chapter 17?
Do you believe that satan is a literal dragon?

Representation does not equal symbolism.

Doug
 
The condemnation of the angels, and the exaltation of the martyrs, all past tense and the present day reign of believers in Christ are all certainties , but not yet realized, save only for God who is omniscient.
Not if God's word states otherwise.
The Satan’s angels are not yet in hell, for they are still active in this world, but hell is still their eventual destiny, that destiny is their bondage. The certainty of their doom is their bondage to darkness.
Yep. But their hell-bound destiny does not mean they are not already bound. Jude states this unequivocally.
The martyrs are not yet dead,
Revelation says otherwise. The envents described were said to have already occurred, occurring at the time of being revealed, or would soon follow because the time was then near.
Living believers reign in this life,
I do not believe that is a point held in dispute by anyone here.
Moreover, John is writing what he sees in the present tense, but the visions he sees are “what must soon take place” (Rev 1:1) that is, future events that are yet to happen, but are certain.
The word "soon" never means "2000 or more years from now" in the scriptures. Neither does the word "near." The word "near always means near in time or space and never multiple millennia. Please do not appeal to Psalm 90:4 or 2 Peter 2:9 because those verses do not contain the words "soon" or "near."
So his visions are seen in real time in John’s present tense...
Yes
...but what he is seeing presently is yet to happen in his real present timeline.
Yes
And by his instructions, “which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea”, and thus, seeing is a present tense event, he writes in the present tense.


Doug
...because the events were going to happen because the time was near. The scrolls were left unsealed because the time was near. Near to John, not near to us in the 21st century.
 
How can you say that the description of the beast isn’t symbolic? Even John said the they were for 7 kings in chapter 17?
Do you believe that satan is a literal dragon?
The simple answer to your question is... possibly. What shape do you think his fallen angel demons have? This is a very real rhelm not one of us wants to experience.... but that does not mean, by no clear understanding they need to be called symbolic.

I long for the days when one never thought in terms of symbolically or metaphorically to explain what they could not understand.

I have 100% belief in Daniel... and Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

as well as Rev. 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
 
Yep. But their hell-bound destiny does not mean they are not already bound. Jude states this unequivocally.
The question is not if they are bound, but what the binding refers to. Their eternal destiny is fixed, bound, and unchangable. They are not bound to the point of being unable to deceive people, tempt, or mislead. Their ultimate end is bound. It is not an either/or situation, but a both/and!

Please do not appeal to Psalm 90:4 or 2 Peter 2:9 because those verses do not contain the words "soon" or "near."
But they do portray the relevance of time to God, and his words are spoken from his perspective so if a day equals 1000, and it’s been nearly two thousand years since the resurrection, then two days is near and soon.

Doug
 
The question is not if they are bound, but what the binding refers to.
I completely agree and in several places scripture is specific, and thereby defines the binding.
Their eternal destiny is fixed, bound, and unchangable.
That is not what Paul or John wrote.
 
That’s what Jude wrote.
I meant to include Jude. I often cite Jude in regard to the binding of satan. The comments you made are not what Jude wrote. Jude was definitely writing about events that had already taken place, and if they are related to Isaiah and words Jesus spoke about the adversary's fall, then Jude was alluding to events that happened before Moses penned the Pentateuch.
 
The simple answer to your question is... possibly. What shape do you think his fallen angel demons have? This is a very real rhelm not one of us wants to experience.... but that does not mean, by no clear understanding they need to be called symbolic.

I long for the days when one never thought in terms of symbolically or metaphorically to explain what they could not understand.

I have 100% belief in Daniel... and Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

as well as Rev. 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
The fallen angels are the same shape and forum that they had before they fell
 
I meant to include Jude. I often cite Jude in regard to the binding of satan. The comments you made are not what Jude wrote. Jude was definitely writing about events that had already taken place, and if they are related to Isaiah and words Jesus spoke about the adversary's fall, then Jude was alluding to events that happened before Moses penned the Pentateuch.
Yes, Satan’s binding was done prior to the penning of scripture, which means his condemnation was fixed and unredeemable but not his activity amongst men. When the end comes, he will be bound permanently from acting amongst men in any manner, but he hasn’t been cast into the lake of fire yet. How could Satan have been bound away in darkness for the day of judgment, as in a holding cell waiting for trial, and yet be able to tempt Jesus, or Adam, or is?

Doug
 
Yes, Satan’s binding was done prior to the penning of scripture, which means his condemnation was fixed and unredeemable...
Yep
...but not his activity amongst men.
Yep.

BUT... it also deserves saying that, as a created creature, any and all action of that bound creature can and does occur only at the behest and purpose of his Creator and Binder, God Almighty. Satan is not a free agent, and he never has been.
When the end comes, he will be bound permanently from acting amongst men in any manner...
I think that is an inadequate view at best in potentially misrepresentative in it entirety. If the imagery of the fiery lake is to take within any degree of literal outcome then it should be recognized death is also tossed into the fiery lake and death is said to be destroyed, devoured, abolished and NOT merely lingering around in impotence (1 Cor. 15). If death is not dead then neither is anything else tossed into the fiery lake. If death isn't destroyed then neither is anything else, but if death is destroyed (as the Greek terms indicate) then so too is everything else tossed into the fiery lake - and that would include the adversary. He, therefore, is not merely prevented from "acting amongst men."

More to the point (because the op is about Revelation 20:4 and not Revelation 4:10-14) the binding mentioned at the beginning of the chapter may well be the exact same binding reported in Jude. That would mean a lot of extra-biblical eschatological doctrine is incorrect 😲. To assume the binding is another binding, a new and different binding isn't said in the Rev. 20 text. Neither is it supported by the Rev. 20 text. In fact, at the beginning of the Revelation text it is reported some of the revelation has already occurred. It is said to be things John has already seen. Jude reportsthe angels that didn't keep their proper abode were bound long ago and elsewhere we know Jesus came to undo the works of the devil and he accomplished that task, another post-Jude binding of satan. So there's nothing in Revelation to support the interpretation this is a third binding and plenty elsewhere in scripture to support the Rev. 20 binding as a past occurrence that preceded the first century.
....but he hasn’t been cast into the lake of fire yet.
I completely agree, but the fiery lake isn't a binding. It is the predetermined judgment reported in Jude.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Eternally. Sodom is gone. It no longer exists. The inhabitants of those cities face the last judgment, but that end is already decided, and that end is the fiery lake that is so deadly a second death that even death is destroyed. It is not a binding that leaves anyone lingering around bound and alive.
How could Satan have been bound away in darkness for the day of judgment, as in a holding cell waiting for trial...
Oh, wait. There is no trial. Jude says the matter is decided. It's John 3:18 with no option for redemption. Salvation form sin is the sole privielge of humanity and NOT the angels who failed to keep their proper abode.
and yet be able to tempt Jesus, or Adam, or is?
Sure it is. As I stated above, satan is a creature. He is not a god. He's not actually a "ruler" of anything. There is only one God and the One God is Creator and Ruler of ALL. There are no exceptions. Jesus, His Son, is King of all kings and Lord of all lords. There is no other King and no place in all of creation where the Son of God who is God has not always been God, King, and Lord.

To say otherwise is very bad theology.

So when Paul writes about the ruler of the air or the god of this world that should always be read in the context of Creator and creature - and all creatures never being free agents who get to do their thing apart from the manifest sovereignty of their Creator. Satan is a minion. A bound minion.

Oh! I forgot to mention another binding. The wages of sin is death. Sin enslaves. The moment satan disobeyed God he became enslaved. He became dead, dead in sin. He is no more a free, autonomous agent than any other sinful sin-filled, sin enslaved, dead in sin creature. He bound himself in sin and then God bound him in eternal bonds of darkness for the day of judgment. And then he - all his works - were defeated at Calvary. Satan is not in charge of anythng. He never has been. He does not have any power or influence except that which his Creator has permitted and all of it serves the Creator's purpose and none other.

That applies to the temptation of Adam and Jesus, too.

I do not want to cause further digress, but if you subscribe to the doctrine of Impeccability, then it is not accurate to make a comparison between Adam's temptation and Jesus' (or anyone else's). It is always a false equivalence.




In summary: satan was bound long before the revelation of Revelation was given, and he was bound in multiple ways before that revelation. The text of Revelation explicitly reports some of Revelation is past and some of it is future so if that is all we had we might well read the Rev. 20 binding as a future event but since scripture elsewhere informs us of prior bindings and the Rev. 20 text does not state that binding is future, it is most consistent with whole scripture to read that binding as a past event, one that occurred with his enslavement to sin, his being bound in darkness, he being defeated at Calvary, and his being a finite creature who has never been autonomous but always served only the purpose of his Creator. That guy will suffer a final, "second" death that is so deadly even death dies and is destroyed. Chapter 20 covers the past through John's present to the future end.

Give it a re-read with that in mind and see if it makes sense to you.
 
The condemnation of the angels, and the exaltation of the martyrs, all past tense and the present day reign of believers in Christ are all certainties , but not yet realized, save only for God who is omniscient.

The Satan’s angels are not yet in hell, for they are still active in this world, but hell is still their eventual destiny, that destiny is their bondage. The certainty of their doom is their bondage to darkness.

The martyrs are not yet dead, and may not even be alive yet for all we know, but they will die in the events of Rev 13, and they will cry out “how long O Lord”, and he will tell them to “be patient and wait a little longer” because the number of their fellow martyrs is not yet complete. Their white robes of righteousness are the certainties that the martyrs are “bound” to. To us, it is yet to happen, to God it is certain. God knows perfectly, we accept by faith! The certainty of their “bondage” to their future glory!

Living believers reign in this life, because we are presently “free from sin” and its power and reign of us! This is the certainty of those to whom Paul initially wrote and to we who believe presently or will in the future. The promise of God was there and is our certainly through faith, this we can and do write in the present tense about yet unfulfilled realities.

Moreover, John is writing what he sees in the present tense, but the visions he sees are “what must soon take place” (Rev 1:1) that is, future events that are yet to happen, but are certain. So his visions are seen in real time in John’s present tense, but what he is seeing presently is yet to happen in his real present timeline. And by his instructions, “which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea”, and thus, seeing is a present tense event, he writes in the present tense.


Doug


It says right there: "soon." So why do you call them (distant) future?
 
Yep

Yep.

BUT... it also deserves saying that, as a created creature, any and all action of that bound creature can and does occur only at the behest and purpose of his Creator and Binder, God Almighty. Satan is not a free agent, and he never has been.

I think that is an inadequate view at best in potentially misrepresentative in it entirety. If the imagery of the fiery lake is to take within any degree of literal outcome then it should be recognized death is also tossed into the fiery lake and death is said to be destroyed, devoured, abolished and NOT merely lingering around in impotence (1 Cor. 15). If death is not dead then neither is anything else tossed into the fiery lake. If death isn't destroyed then neither is anything else, but if death is destroyed (as the Greek terms indicate) then so too is everything else tossed into the fiery lake - and that would include the adversary. He, therefore, is not merely prevented from "acting amongst men."

More to the point (because the op is about Revelation 20:4 and not Revelation 4:10-14) the binding mentioned at the beginning of the chapter may well be the exact same binding reported in Jude. That would mean a lot of extra-biblical eschatological doctrine is incorrect 😲. To assume the binding is another binding, a new and different binding isn't said in the Rev. 20 text. Neither is it supported by the Rev. 20 text. In fact, at the beginning of the Revelation text it is reported some of the revelation has already occurred. It is said to be things John has already seen. Jude reportsthe angels that didn't keep their proper abode were bound long ago and elsewhere we know Jesus came to undo the works of the devil and he accomplished that task, another post-Jude binding of satan. So there's nothing in Revelation to support the interpretation this is a third binding and plenty elsewhere in scripture to support the Rev. 20 binding as a past occurrence that preceded the first century.

I completely agree, but the fiery lake isn't a binding. It is the predetermined judgment reported in Jude.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Eternally. Sodom is gone. It no longer exists. The inhabitants of those cities face the last judgment, but that end is already decided, and that end is the fiery lake that is so deadly a second death that even death is destroyed. It is not a binding that leaves anyone lingering around bound and alive.

Oh, wait. There is no trial. Jude says the matter is decided. It's John 3:18 with no option for redemption. Salvation form sin is the sole privielge of humanity and NOT the angels who failed to keep their proper abode.

Sure it is. As I stated above, satan is a creature. He is not a god. He's not actually a "ruler" of anything. There is only one God and the One God is Creator and Ruler of ALL. There are no exceptions. Jesus, His Son, is King of all kings and Lord of all lords. There is no other King and no place in all of creation where the Son of God who is God has not always been God, King, and Lord.

To say otherwise is very bad theology.

So when Paul writes about the ruler of the air or the god of this world that should always be read in the context of Creator and creature - and all creatures never being free agents who get to do their thing apart from the manifest sovereignty of their Creator. Satan is a minion. A bound minion.

Oh! I forgot to mention another binding. The wages of sin is death. Sin enslaves. The moment satan disobeyed God he became enslaved. He became dead, dead in sin. He is no more a free, autonomous agent than any other sinful sin-filled, sin enslaved, dead in sin creature. He bound himself in sin and then God bound him in eternal bonds of darkness for the day of judgment. And then he - all his works - were defeated at Calvary. Satan is not in charge of anythng. He never has been. He does not have any power or influence except that which his Creator has permitted and all of it serves the Creator's purpose and none other.

That applies to the temptation of Adam and Jesus, too.

I do not want to cause further digress, but if you subscribe to the doctrine of Impeccability, then it is not accurate to make a comparison between Adam's temptation and Jesus' (or anyone else's). It is always a false equivalence.




In summary: satan was bound long before the revelation of Revelation was given, and he was bound in multiple ways before that revelation. The text of Revelation explicitly reports some of Revelation is past and some of it is future so if that is all we had we might well read the Rev. 20 binding as a future event but since scripture elsewhere informs us of prior bindings and the Rev. 20 text does not state that binding is future, it is most consistent with whole scripture to read that binding as a past event, one that occurred with his enslavement to sin, his being bound in darkness, he being defeated at Calvary, and his being a finite creature who has never been autonomous but always served only the purpose of his Creator. That guy will suffer a final, "second" death that is so deadly even death dies and is destroyed. Chapter 20 covers the past through John's present to the future end.

Give it a re-read with that in mind and see if it makes sense to you.

I forget the location but Lewis says Satan operates by rumor. The rumor is he has power; if it gets repeated often enough, it has its own power.
 
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