Our incomprehensible God.

[Runningman]

Good to see that you unknowingly agree Jesus is God. . .

Strawman. Obviously I don't agree with that.

 

[Eleanor]

So when Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the Lord then Elizabeth was just referring to a human master.

So when Elizabeth referred to Mary as the mother of her Lord then she wasn't calling Jesus God because Mary is not the mother of God.

Obviously I don't agree with that.

Belief and unbelief of the NT is a choice.

 

[Runningman]

Belief and unbelief of the NT is a choice.

Mary isn't the mother of God, Mary is the mother of the Lord. Common denominator is that Jesus is a human. No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. Believing the Bible is a choice.

 

[Eleanor]

Mary isn't the mother of God, Mary is the mother of the Lord. Common denominator is that Jesus is a human. No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. Believing the Bible is a choice.

John did. . .The Word (Jesus) was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelled among us (Jn 1:1, 14).

You either believe it, or you don't. . .I do.

 

[Eleanor]

No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. Believing the Bible is a choice.

Thomas did. . ."Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (Jn 20:28-29)

You either believe it or you don't. . .I do.

 

[Binyawmene]

Thomas did. . ."Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (Jn 20:28-29)

You either believe it or you don't. . .I do.

Amen. Peter did too:

John 6:69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.

You can cross-reference "Holy One" in the WHOLE book of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3, John 12:41).

Also, the devil affirms it (Luke 4:34, James 2:19).

His birth affirms it (Luke 1:35).

His death affirms it (Acts 2:27, 13:35).

Acts 3:13-15 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

His High Priest affirms it (Hebrews 7:26).

Pit scriptures against scriptures or harmonize scriptures?

1 Samuel 2:2 “There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

[Runningman]

John did. . .The Word (Jesus) was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelled among us (Jn 1:1, 14).

You either believe it, or you don't. . .I do.

And yet in 1 John 1:1-3 John said that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, not a person, that manifested in a man. John didn’t believe Jesus is God,. He clearly had no idea that personification of a word would result in so many people misunderstanding him.

You can also read John’s prayer beginning in Acts 4:23-27. He said God is the Creator and Jesus is God’s servant. He didn’t believe what you do about Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Thomas did. . ."Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (Jn 20:28-29)

You either believe it or you don't. . .I do.

In John 20:17 Jesus said his brothers God is the Father. When Thomas said “my God” in John 20:28, he was referring to the Father. That means Thomas doesn’t believe Jesus is God.

 

[Eleanor]

And yet in 1 John 1:1-3 John said that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, not a person,

You either believe the testimony of the word of God in Jn 1:1, 14 or you don't.
I do. . .and that testimony is:

"the Word was God" (Jn 1:1) - the "Word" of Jn 1:1 is not a person only when God is not a person.
And that Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:14).

One more time:
In Greek philosophy, the First Cause and the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe was called logos,
and that is the meaning John is using in Jn 1:1, 14 in his gospel to the Greeks (Gentiles).
John opens his gospel with the astounding claim that the recently crucified and despised Jesus of Nazareth is the eternal logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

We've had his discussion before, I won't be having it again.

 

[Runningman]

You either believe the testimony of the word of God in Jn 1:1, 14 or you don't.
I do. . .and that testimony is:

"the Word was God" (Jn 1:1) - the "Word" of Jn 1:1 is not a person only when God is not a person.
And that Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1:14).

One more time:
In Greek philosophy, the First Cause and the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe was called logos,
and that is the meaning John is using in Jn 1:1, 14 in his gospel to the Greeks (Gentiles).
John opens his gospel with the astounding claim that the recently crucified and despised Jesus of Nazareth is the eternal logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

We've had his discussion before, I won't be having it again.

The "word" isn't a he but an it throughout 99% of the New Testament. There is scarcely a direct reference to the "word" being a he, aside from John 1. This makes John 1 anomalous.

The "word" is demonstrably not Jesus where Jesus and the word are talked about in the same context. See 1 John 1:1-3. Revelation 1:2, 9, Revelation 20:4.

On top of all of that, the word we are talking about is the Greek word logos and it's used throughout the New Testament and Septuagint. Logos doesn't mean Jesus or God or Son, etc. It refers to words, speaking, etc. Words aren't a literal person. This is called personification of a non-person thing.

This is why 1 John 1:1-3 says that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that manifested in a man. That means Jesus isn't literally the word of God, but rather the word of God was in him.

Furthermore, John demonstrably didn't even believe Jesus is God along with the rest of the disciples. In Acts 4:23-27, John and Peter prayed together to the Sovereign Lord, the Father, while referring to Jesus as His servant. That means John doesn't agree with your interpretation of John 1.

What else, the Greek words of John 1:1 support the word being either a god or something godly in contradistinction to the definitive God also referenced in the same verse.

The common denominator here is you have what is called a proof-text that has to ignore the other 99% of the Bible to survive.

 

[STAND]

So many for ages have denied the Trinity.
But, like many believers have said, "If you allow all of scripture to speak, you are forced to a doctrine of the Trinity."

The only way we can know and comprehend anything about God is by and through scripture. This incomprehensible God, who is of Himself and for Himself, cannot be made known to His creatures but by Himself. Men and angels cannot know Him any further than He is pleased to reveal Himself unto them.

And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, the One who is and who was, O Holy One, because You judged these things; Revelation 16:5. And Jesus (who is the one and same God with His Father) is the same yesterday, today and forever - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever. Heb13:8.

This first and independent Being cannot be measured in itself, because it is infinite, nor in its causes, for it has no causes, but is from itself, of itself, by itself and for itself; for as the apostles says: " all things are of him, and through him, and to him, to him be the glory forever. Amen." Romans 11.


Thoughts?

Actually, I don't think the Bible forces a doctrine of the trinity at all.

It more so seems to force an ideal that God is one person.

There are three ancient gods that seem to fit the trinity concept though. baal, astarte and molech were the most highly worshiped demon-gods of the land of Canaan. I think these are the idol-gods that have made their way into Christendom.

Thoughts?

 

[Arial]

Actually, I don't think the Bible forces a doctrine of the trinity at all.

It more so seems to force an ideal that God is one person.

There is a reason that I believe is often overlooked about why in the OT, and specifically with Moses first, then to Israel, God was so strongly revealing Himself as one. He was not speaking of his from of Being as either triune or not triune. He was contrasting Himself with those nations, Egypt being one of them who had a plethora of gods.

Israel had been in slavery to Egypt for over four hundred years, surrounded by idol worship---images of their gods, who incidentally never actually did anything. They could not speak, or walk, or wield power. They just stood there. In the plagues brought upon Egypt, God showed both Egypt and the Israelites that He was not like their impotent gods made of wood. He was instead, the one true and living God who governed and ruled over all else. He was Creator of all that is and everything answered to Him. He alone was sovereign over creation, and who did as He pleased. In the wilderness He revealed Himself as protector, defender, provider, to those He takes into covenant as His people, and judge over all. He spoke, and it was. He broke down, and it was broken down. He blessed and blessing was. He judged, and judgment fell.

So it was not that He was teaching against being triune when He said "I am one and there is no other." He was revealing through action that He is the only God. And when He said "You shall have no other gods before me or make any graven image to worship, He was not teaching against the Trinity as some say. He was teaching a people, His people, who had for centuries witnessed polytheism, it was familiar and comfortable for them, that they were His people, and there would be no more worshiping any other.

The Trinity in fact was shadowed in the OT, in theophony, in the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire, in the sacrifices, the prophecies, in the Exodus itself. And the Spirit directly spoken of and seen in action. It was not fully revealed until the real came, Jesus Son of God, Son of Man.

 

[grace2]

The Trinity in fact was shadowed in the OT,

This is a big fat lie.

Jesus was not sent to teach us the trinity.

 

[Arial]

Mary isn't the mother of God, Mary is the mother of the Lord. Common denominator is that Jesus is a human. No one believed Jesus is God in the Bible. Believing the Bible is a choice.

The Lord is God.

 

[STAND]

There is a reason that I believe is often overlooked about why in the OT, and specifically with Moses first, then to Israel, God was so strongly revealing Himself as one. He was not speaking of his from of Being as either triune or not triune. He was contrasting Himself with those nations, Egypt being one of them who had a plethora of gods.

Israel had been in slavery to Egypt for over four hundred years, surrounded by idol worship---images of their gods, who incidentally never actually did anything. They could not speak, or walk, or wield power. They just stood there. In the plagues brought upon Egypt, God showed both Egypt and the Israelites that He was not like their impotent gods made of wood. He was instead, the one true and living God who governed and ruled over all else. He was Creator of all that is and everything answered to Him. He alone was sovereign over creation, and who did as He pleased. In the wilderness He revealed Himself as protector, defender, provider, to those He takes into covenant as His people, and judge over all. He spoke, and it was. He broke down, and it was broken down. He blessed and blessing was. He judged, and judgment fell.

So it was not that He was teaching against being triune when He said "I am one and there is no other." He was revealing through action that He is the only God. And when He said "You shall have no other gods before me or make any graven image to worship, He was not teaching against the Trinity as some say. He was teaching a people, His people, who had for centuries witnessed polytheism, it was familiar and comfortable for them, that they were His people, and there would be no more worshiping any other.

The Trinity in fact was shadowed in the OT, in theophony, in the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire, in the sacrifices, the prophecies, in the Exodus itself. And the Spirit directly spoken of and seen in action. It was not fully revealed until the real came, Jesus Son of God, Son of Man.

I still struggle with how you have no problem calling the trinity a He, though.

It's interesting to me that the official definition specifies that the trinity is persons; that it is separate and different persons.

If it is critical for the official authorities on the matter to specify this, it seems so odd that they'd have no problem with multiple persons being referred to with a singular pronoun. I get that it's supposed to be three IN one and all, but in no other English rules of grammar are multiple persons referred to in singular pronouns. In fact, a team, a group or a unit would be referred to as an IT or a they. Yet it's okay to refer to three persons as a HE?

Embrace the mystery, I guess.

 

[Arial]

It's interesting to me that the official definition specifies that the trinity is persons; that it is separate and different persons.

Official definition? Could it be that you simply don't understand the hypostatic union? That is a matter of not being able to wrap your head around it? It does not say that it is separate and different persons. It says it is three distinct persons in terms of their personal relationships to one another, but not in their essence. All of them are the being of God, They subsist within the one divine nature, co-equal in terms of their shared essence. Triune is the type of being God is.

If it is critical for the official authorities on the matter to specify this, it seems so odd that they'd have no problem with multiple persons being referred to with a singular pronoun. I get that it's supposed to be three IN one and all, but in no other English rules of grammar are multiple persons referred to in singular pronouns. In fact, a team, a group or a unit would be referred to as an IT or a they. Yet it's okay to refer to three persons as a HE?

Elohim translated God, is plural. The rules of English grammar are utterly beside the point in the matter. We are talking about God. He is completely other than humanity or any of His creation. There is no other being like God. He is one God, there is no other God. He is one God, triune in being. When we say God we speak of Him as He is. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit---just as the Bible does throughout. They all have the same purpose, the same power, the same everything, but we see them performing different actions of the same purpose. In redemption, the Father sends the Son to purchase a people, delivering them out of darkness. The Son comes as one of us to do this by substituting Himself in our place. The substitute must be of the same kind as the one He substitutes for. But He must also have the dignity that only God has in order for His perfect righteousness to have the power and magnitude to make payment for all the sins of thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands. And the Holy Spirit gathers these people that He died for through the new birth (John 3) and applies that work to them, them in Christ, and sanctifies them as they wait for His return and the promises new heaven and new earth. This of course is not all they do, but that is the nutshell version.

 

[Runningman]

The Lord is God.

So Mary is the mother of God. Is God's mother a sinner?

 

[Runningman]

Actually, I don't think the Bible forces a doctrine of the trinity at all.

It more so seems to force an ideal that God is one person.

There are three ancient gods that seem to fit the trinity concept though. baal, astarte and molech were the most highly worshiped demon-gods of the land of Canaan. I think these are the idol-gods that have made their way into Christendom.

Thoughts?

One may conclude that the Trinitarian church comprises those who are being conditioned for the beast kingdom and may be deceived by the trinity of the devil, beast, and false prophet.

 

[makesends]

It's interesting to me that the official definition specifies that the trinity is persons; that it is separate and different persons.

Different as in distinct. Not separate. One

 

[Binyawmene]

Actually, I don't think the Bible forces a doctrine of the trinity at all.

It more so seems to force an ideal that God is one person.

There are three ancient gods that seem to fit the trinity concept though. baal, astarte and molech were the most highly worshiped demon-gods of the land of Canaan. I think these are the idol-gods that have made their way into Christendom.

Thoughts?

The Bible clearly teaches The Trinity Allusions (John 14:16, Matthew 28:19, Romans 15:30, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6). Take for example in Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" Do you see the conjunction "and"? That is called coordinate conjunction which describes the relationship between two or more elements that are of equal importance and value. Can you Scripturally describe the coordinate conjunction relationship between of the Father and of the Son? What you want is something that is co-equal, like how the "name" is in the singular, so all three has co-equal name. Here are a few examples about the Son (Deity of Christ):

- The Personhood of the Son

1. Person, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:15).
2. Distinction, with the Father (John 1:1, 17:5).
3. Inseparable, with the Father (John 8:29, John 16:32).
4. Union, with the Father (John 10:38, John 14:10-11).
5. Co-equal, with the Father (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6).
6. Co-eternal, with the Father (Psalms 90:2, Proverbs 8:25).
7. Co-glory, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:10, 24).
8. Co-creator, with the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16).[/indent[

- The Son is God

1. Father's claim (Hebrews 1:8).
2. Son's claim (John 8:58-59).
3. Jews' claim (John 5:18, 10:31-33).
4. Peter's claim (2 Peter 1:1).
5. Thomas' claim (John 20:28).
6. John's claim (John 1:1, 1 John 5:20).
7. Paul's claim (Titus 2:13, Romans 9:5).​

- The Son is Lord

1. "Christ as Lord" (1 Peter 3:15).
2. "one Lord" (1 Corinthians 8:6, Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:5).
3. "only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 1:4, Revelations 6:10).
4. "LORD your God" (Jude 1:5, Deuteronomy 5:6, Hosea 13:4).
5. "Lord" (Romans 10:9-13, Joel 2:32).
6. "Lord and Savior" (2 Peter 1:11, 2:20, 3:18, Isaiah 43:11).
7. "same Lord" (1 Corinthians 12:5).​

- The Son's Divine Attributes

1. Eternal (Psalm 93:2, John 17:5, Matthew 28:20).
2. Immutable (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 1:10-12, 13:8).
3. Holy (1 Samuel 2:2, Isaiah 6:3, John 12:41, James 2:19, Luke 1:35, 4:34, John 6:69).
4. Omniscient (Psalm 139:1-4, John 16:30, 21:17).
5. Omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 18:27, Philippians 3:20–21).
6. Omnipresent (Jeremiah 23:23-24, Ephesians 4:10, Matthew 18:20).​

- The Son's Divine Titles

1. "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14).
2. "True God" (1 John 5:20).
3. "Rock" (1 Corinthians 10:4, Exodus 17:6).
4. "Emmanuel" (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6).
5. "Lord of Glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8, Psalm 24:8-10, James 2:1).
6. "Alpha and Omega" (Revelation 1:8; 22:13, Isaiah 44:6).
7. "Lord of All" (Acts 10:36).​

- The Son receives glory from the Father

1. The Son has the same glory with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:5).
2. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, 2 Peter 1:17).
3. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).
4. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).
5. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24, Acts 3:13).
6. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).​

- The Son is worshiped

1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).
2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).
3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).
4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).
5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).
6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Philippians 2:10-11, Revelations 5:13).​

The Deity of Christ is part of the application of both Trinity and the Hypostatic Union doctrines. In the Trinity doctrine, the basis for the Deity of Christ is refer to the Son alone who is distinct from the Father and co-equal with the Father. A Trinitarian identifies the Deity of Christ by making parallels between the Son's godness qualities and the Father who is established as God. While in the Hypostatic Union, the parallel is between both Deity and Humanity. The Greek word ἴσον (isos) or equal is mentioned eight times in the New Testament, and two times in reference to the Son (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6). For example, "only God our Savior" (Jude 25) is in reference to the Father, and "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) is in reference to the Son. The Son is being on the same value level equally with the Father. Because the Son possesses those godness qualities that the Father alone possesses as being "God" and "Savior."​