Our incomprehensible God.

[Binyawmene]

There are three ancient gods that seem to fit the trinity concept though. baal, astarte and molech were the most highly worshiped demon-gods of the land of Canaan. I think these are the idol-gods that have made their way into Christendom.

Thoughts?

Jesus Christ in Christianity is unique among the so-called non-existing gods and lords (1 Corinthians 8:4-6, newly converts to Christianity still believed in so-called gods v. 7 "...Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food, they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled..." and behind every idol is a demon 1 Corinthians 10:19-20. i.e. Egyptians' gods are demons too Deuteronomy 32:17).

The New Testament clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is God (Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8). Unless you want to assume that Apostles, like Paul and Peter, etc. were mythicized. What we can say that believing in a god is nothing new to the common person during that time era. Probably through many centuries of wars and trades among the ancient civilizations. They can easily accept Christianity in the 1st. century that "Jesus Christ is God" and without a problem to the common people. After all, the concept of "god" was common knowledge and widely influenced from ancient Mediterranean religions/mythologies, Egyptian gods, Roman gods, Greek gods, and Mesopotamia gods, etc. from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Iliad.

Acts 14:11-12 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.​

 

[STAND]

Official definition? Could it be that you simply don't understand the hypostatic union? That is a matter of not being able to wrap your head around it? It does not say that it is separate and different persons. It says it is three distinct persons in terms of their personal relationships to one another, but not in their essence. All of them are the being of God, They subsist within the one divine nature, co-equal in terms of their shared essence. Triune is the type of being God is.

Elohim translated God, is plural. The rules of English grammar are utterly beside the point in the matter. We are talking about God. He is completely other than humanity or any of His creation. There is no other being like God. He is one God, there is no other God. He is one God, triune in being. When we say God we speak of Him as He is. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit---just as the Bible does throughout. They all have the same purpose, the same power, the same everything, but we see them performing different actions of the same purpose. In redemption, the Father sends the Son to purchase a people, delivering them out of darkness. The Son comes as one of us to do this by substituting Himself in our place. The substitute must be of the same kind as the one He substitutes for. But He must also have the dignity that only God has in order for His perfect righteousness to have the power and magnitude to make payment for all the sins of thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands. And the Holy Spirit gathers these people that He died for through the new birth (John 3) and applies that work to them, them in Christ, and sanctifies them as they wait for His return and the promises new heaven and new earth. This of course is not all they do, but that is the nutshell version.

I still can't decide if English is your first language, but the age-old diagram of the trinity proves quite clearly that they are "separate and different".

The Father is not the Son or the HS.

Their ranking, according to the "hypostatic union", 1st, 2nd and 3rd persons of the godhead, as well as their relative operations and responsibilities, all prove they are separate and different.

And Elohim can be translated as singular or plural. Nothing in Scripture designates it as plural. The angels were present at Creation just as they were present at Mt. Sinai and are always present with God. Gen. 1:27 proves false the trinitarian claim that 1:26 is proof of plurality.

 

[STAND]

The Bible clearly teaches The Trinity Allusions (John 14:16, Matthew 28:19, Romans 15:30, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6). Take for example in Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" Do you see the conjunction "and"? That is called coordinate conjunction which describes the relationship between two or more elements that are of equal importance and value. Can you Scripturally describe the coordinate conjunction relationship between of the Father and of the Son? What you want is something that is co-equal, like how the "name" is in the singular, so all three has co-equal name. Here are a few examples about the Son (Deity of Christ):

- The Personhood of the Son

1. Person, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:15).​

2. Distinction, with the Father (John 1:1, 17:5).​

3. Inseparable, with the Father (John 8:29, John 16:32).​

4. Union, with the Father (John 10:38, John 14:10-11).​

5. Co-equal, with the Father (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6).​

6. Co-eternal, with the Father (Psalms 90:2, Proverbs 8:25).​

7. Co-glory, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:10, 24).​

8. Co-creator, with the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16).[/indent[​

​

- The Son is God​

​

1. Father's claim (Hebrews 1:8).​

2. Son's claim (John 8:58-59).​

3. Jews' claim (John 5:18, 10:31-33).​

4. Peter's claim (2 Peter 1:1).​

5. Thomas' claim (John 20:28).​

6. John's claim (John 1:1, 1 John 5:20).​

7. Paul's claim (Titus 2:13, Romans 9:5).​

​

- The Son is Lord​

​

1. "Christ as Lord" (1 Peter 3:15).​

2. "one Lord" (1 Corinthians 8:6, Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:5).​

3. "only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 1:4, Revelations 6:10).​

4. "LORD your God" (Jude 1:5, Deuteronomy 5:6, Hosea 13:4).​

5. "Lord" (Romans 10:9-13, Joel 2:32).​

6. "Lord and Savior" (2 Peter 1:11, 2:20, 3:18, Isaiah 43:11).​

7. "same Lord" (1 Corinthians 12:5).​

​

- The Son's Divine Attributes​

​

1. Eternal (Psalm 93:2, John 17:5, Matthew 28:20).​

2. Immutable (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 1:10-12, 13:8).​

3. Holy (1 Samuel 2:2, Isaiah 6:3, John 12:41, James 2:19, Luke 1:35, 4:34, John 6:69).​

4. Omniscient (Psalm 139:1-4, John 16:30, 21:17).​

5. Omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 18:27, Philippians 3:20–21).​

6. Omnipresent (Jeremiah 23:23-24, Ephesians 4:10, Matthew 18:20).​

​

- The Son's Divine Titles​

​

1. "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14).​

2. "True God" (1 John 5:20).​

3. "Rock" (1 Corinthians 10:4, Exodus 17:6).​

4. "Emmanuel" (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6).​

5. "Lord of Glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8, Psalm 24:8-10, James 2:1).​

6. "Alpha and Omega" (Revelation 1:8; 22:13, Isaiah 44:6).​

7. "Lord of All" (Acts 10:36).​

​

- The Son receives glory from the Father​

​

1. The Son has the same glory with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:5).​

2. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, 2 Peter 1:17).​

3. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).​

4. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).​

5. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24, Acts 3:13).​

6. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).​

​

- The Son is worshiped​

​

1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).​

2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).​

3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).​

4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).​

5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).​

6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Philippians 2:10-11, Revelations 5:13).​

​

The Deity of Christ is part of the application of both Trinity and the Hypostatic Union doctrines. In the Trinity doctrine, the basis for the Deity of Christ is refer to the Son alone who is distinct from the Father and co-equal with the Father. A Trinitarian identifies the Deity of Christ by making parallels between the Son's godness qualities and the Father who is established as God. While in the Hypostatic Union, the parallel is between both Deity and Humanity. The Greek word ἴσον (isos) or equal is mentioned eight times in the New Testament, and two times in reference to the Son (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6). For example, "only God our Savior" (Jude 25) is in reference to the Father, and "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) is in reference to the Son. The Son is being on the same value level equally with the Father. Because the Son possesses those godness qualities that the Father alone possesses as being "God" and "Savior."​

You're confused about the use of 'and' in the Bible.

It often means 'even'/'indeed'.

Observe:

“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this ... " (Singular person)
James 1:27
"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; ..." (Singular)
James 3:9
"... the throne of God and of the Lamb..." Rev. 22:1
"... the throne of God and of the Lamb ... and His servants shall serve Him:" Rev. 22:3 (Singular)
"And they shall see His face; and His Name shall be in their foreheads." Rev. 22:4 (Singular)

Without an actual "teaching" that God is 3 persons in the Bible, every single verse proof you call up as a reference to a trinity concept is a misinterpretation of said verse. That is not how the Bible works.

The teaching must exist FIRST before any verse can accurately be used to refer to the concept.

The Bible does not teach that God is 3 persons anywhere.

 

[STAND]

Jesus Christ in Christianity is unique among the so-called non-existing gods and lords (1 Corinthians 8:4-6, newly converts to Christianity still believed in so-called gods v. 7 "...Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food, they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled..." and behind every idol is a demon 1 Corinthians 10:19-20. i.e. Egyptians' gods are demons too Deuteronomy 32:17).

The New Testament clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is God (Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8). Unless you want to assume that Apostles, like Paul and Peter, etc. were mythicized. What we can say that believing in a god is nothing new to the common person during that time era. Probably through many centuries of wars and trades among the ancient civilizations. They can easily accept Christianity in the 1st. century that "Jesus Christ is God" and without a problem to the common people. After all, the concept of "god" was common knowledge and widely influenced from ancient Mediterranean religions/mythologies, Egyptian gods, Roman gods, Greek gods, and Mesopotamia gods, etc. from the Epic of Gilgamesh to the Iliad.

Acts 14:11-12 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in human form!" Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.​

I completely agree Jesus is God.

I don't agree with Him being a trinity.

 

[Arial]

I still can't decide if English is your first language, but the age-old diagram of the trinity proves quite clearly that they are "separate and different".

Ad hominem noted. Two words in the English language are similar, but also very different in meaning. Those two words are "different" and "distinct". Maybe if you would address what I had to say about it instead of just repeating your position, you would have seen that.

Neither the hypostatic union nor the diagram given say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate from one another or different than one another.

Their ranking, according to the "hypostatic union", 1st, 2nd and 3rd persons of the godhead, as well as their relative operations and responsibilities, all prove they are separate and different.

The hypostatic union is not "ranking" them. Their relative operations and responsibilities do not prove they are separate and different, it proves they are one but distinct.

And Elohim can be translated as singular or plural. Nothing in Scripture designates it as plural. The angels were present at Creation just as they were present at Mt. Sinai and are always present with God. Gen. 1:27 proves false the trinitarian claim that 1:26 is proof of plurality.

Is there anything in the Bible that indicates that angels create? There is however evidence in the Bible that Jesus creates. (John 1:3; Col 1:16; 1 Cor 8:6; John 1:10; Heb 1:2)

The only way Gen 1:27 makes a liar out of God in Gen 1:26 is if one is working from the presupposition that God is not a triune being. It is really bad exegesis and hermeneutics.

 

[Arial]

And yet in 1 John 1:1-3 John said that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, not a person, that manifested in a man. John didn’t believe Jesus is God,. He clearly had no idea that personification of a word would result in so many people misunderstanding him.

It actually says the Word manifested as a man, not in a man. The Word became flesh.

John clearly knew that Jesus is God. He did not merely personify the Word, he expressed it in personal language, and in direct contrast to the Greek philosophical thought on what the logos was, which could never enter into creation as flesh, and truly was an "it." To suggest that John was mistaken in the way he said what he said, and his choice of wordage resulted in many people misunderstanding him, is to deny the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in those who penned the Bible.

The difference in understanding and so grossly misunderstanding what the Holy Spirit gives us is a matter of blindness and seeing. Not believing and believing, which Jesus tells us, and later Paul reaffirms is whether or not one is born of the Spirit. Look at all the hoops that must be jumped through to deny what is clear. The entire Bible must be pitted against itself in order to do so.

 

[Arial]

One may conclude that the Trinitarian church comprises those who are being conditioned for the beast kingdom and may be deceived by the trinity of the devil, beast, and false prophet.

The trinity of the devil, beast and false prophet is a false trinity that mimics the true Trinity. Where do you think the devil got the idea from?

 

[Arial]

I completely agree Jesus is God.

I don't agree with Him being a trinity.

What do you mean by that?

 

[STAND]

Ad hominem noted. Two words in the English language are similar, but also very different in meaning. Those two words are "different" and "distinct". Maybe if you would address what I had to say about it instead of just repeating your position, you would have seen that.

Neither the hypostatic union nor the diagram given say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate from one another or different than one another.

Yes, it does.

No, it doesn't.

The hypostatic union is not "ranking" them. Their relative operations and responsibilities do not prove they are separate and different, it proves they are one but distinct.

Are they not ranked?

1st person of the godhead, 2nd person of the godhead, etc.?

Is there anything in the Bible that indicates that angels create? There is however evidence in the Bible that Jesus creates. (John 1:3; Col 1:16; 1 Cor 8:6; John 1:10; Heb 1:2)

Angels don't have to create. Job 38:7 proves they were present and Gen. 1:27 proves that God created things HIM-self.

The only way Gen 1:27 makes a liar out of God in Gen 1:26 is if one is working from the presupposition that God is not a triune being. It is really bad exegesis and hermeneutics.

Working from the presupposition that God IS a triune being is responsible for ALL of the misinterpretation of the verses that trinitarians use to support their unbiblical doctrine.

Show where the Bible teaches that God is 3 persons and that presupposition will become fact. Until then, it is just empty, false presupposition.

 

[STAND]

The trinity of the devil, beast and false prophet is a false trinity that mimics the true Trinity. Where do you think the devil got the idea from?

The true trinity is baal, ashtoreth and molech.

 

[Arial]

The true trinity is baal, ashtoreth and molech.

That is quite the statement! And blasphemous if you are wrong. You will need to provide scriptural evidence of such a statement.

 

[Binyawmene]

You're confused about the use of 'and' in the Bible.

It often means 'even'/'indeed'.

Observe:

“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this ... " (Singular person)
James 1:27
"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; ..." (Singular)
James 3:9
"... the throne of God and of the Lamb..." Rev. 22:1
"... the throne of God and of the Lamb ... and His servants shall serve Him:" Rev. 22:3 (Singular)
"And they shall see His face; and His Name shall be in their foreheads." Rev. 22:4 (Singular)

Without an actual "teaching" that God is 3 persons in the Bible, every single verse proof you call up as a reference to a trinity concept is a misinterpretation of said verse. That is not how the Bible works.

The teaching must exist FIRST before any verse can accurately be used to refer to the concept.

The Bible does not teach that God is 3 persons anywhere.

Sure. In certain instance "and" can function as "even" since both are conjunctions. However, BibleHub states: "kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and (also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense)." So, in Matthew 28:19 the word "and" is functioning as a coordinate conjunction, which is how you can derive the word co-equal or the three who are mentioned are co-equal in name in context. Here is another coordinate conjunction relationship between of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Father.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.​

The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he (Father) will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.​

The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I (Son) will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I (Son) will send him to you.​

I completely agree Jesus is God.

I don't agree with Him being a trinity.

Are you a Oneness?

 

[Arial]

The true trinity is baal, ashtoreth and molech.

Baal, ashtoreth and molech are false gods, worshiped by different groups in the pagan nations surrounding Israel and that Israel came to also worship. They worshiped at the idols and shrines of these gods. They are not real, are made of wood and stone, are impotent speechless etc. And they are not a trinity. They are three separate deities. Trinity in the Bible denotes the triune nature of God, not separate deities.

You present a false equivalence fallacy.

 

[Arial]

Yes, it does.

No, it doesn't.

That is the way you see it, which is not automatically the way it is. Who is more equipped to say what it is? The one who understands the hypostatic union or the one who tries to measure it anthropomorphically when it is something that has never been experienced by finite man? And does so with presuppositions firmly in place.

Are they not ranked?

1st person of the godhead, 2nd person of the godhead, etc.?

That is not a rank, it is an identifying distinction. The Trinity doctrine states them as one in essence and co-equal.

Angels don't have to create. Job 38:7 proves they were present and Gen. 1:27 proves that God created things HIM-self.

Then why do you bring it up? No one is denying they may have been present. It is the "let us make" that is being debated. And God Himself is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If what you say is true then the scriptures I gave and were ignored, stating Christ's involvement in creation, would be false statements made by God.

Working from the presupposition that God IS a triune being is responsible for ALL of the misinterpretation of the verses that trinitarians use to support their unbiblical doctrine.

That is not how the Trinity came to be a tenant of Christianity. The Bible itself presented something that needed to be clarified into articulation. It is obvious that there are three named in the Scripture, all working for the same purpose but in different ways and different aspects of redemption. It is not the purpose of the creature that is being brought forth, but the purpose of God. A creature (created and finite being) cannot die for the sins of anyone, only for his own, and his sins would not be expiated but meet just judgment. A creature does not have what it takes to satisfy God's wrath against sinners and sin. He does not have what it takes to reconcile anyone to a holy God.

Jesus told us the Father is God. And He also tells us that His sacrifice becomes effectual personally, only through the new birth by the Spirit. The Bible tells us it is the Spirit who seals us in Christ, who illuminates His word by giving understanding, and sanctifies us.

It is the verses that verify all of this that non-trinitarians ignore, or distort by various means, every time any of them are brought into a conversation.

 

[STAND]

That is quite the statement! And blasphemous if you are wrong. You will need to provide scriptural evidence of such a statement.

Oh, you mean like all the Scriptural evidence YOU always include in your assertions?

 

[STAND]

Are you a Oneness?

I tend not to subscribe to all the silly titles that are inextricably bound to denominations with their own inherent flaws, etc.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God Almighty throughout. Isaiah 9:6 said He would be The Father when He'd be born. Greek definition of 'Father' is also 'Source'. That makes it easier to understand that He is God Almighty as the Almighty is not bound by space, time or human limitations. Jer. 23:24 says the Father is omnipresent, John 3:13 Jesus declares to be omnipresent.

King of Kings and Lord of Lords can only be ONE individual. And whomever that individual is, they are the Most High God. Jesus IS that individual.

There are countless verses and scenarios in the Bible that prove Jesus is God, but there are also many which show He can ONLY be the Almighty.

It is what it is. Oneness is often accused of being Modalism, which is actually inaccurate. Unitarian doesn't even believe Jesus is God, but subscribes to a monotheism akin to Judaism and Islamism.

I just believe what the Bible teaches and don't really use any labels other than Bible-believing Christian.

 

[STAND]

Baal, ashtoreth and molech are false gods, worshiped by different groups in the pagan nations surrounding Israel and that Israel came to also worship. They worshiped at the idols and shrines of these gods. They are not real, are made of wood and stone, are impotent speechless etc. And they are not a trinity. They are three separate deities. Trinity in the Bible denotes the triune nature of God, not separate deities.

You present a false equivalence fallacy.

Oh, they're very real.

You think people would worship and sacrifice to them for thousands of years, all over the world, if they were just make-believe and nothing at all came from committing oneself to them?

They are just as real today as they have ever been.

And possibly more broadly worshiped across the entire world than ever before.

 

[Arial]

You think people would worship and sacrifice to them for thousands of years, all over the world, if they were just make-believe and nothing at all came from committing oneself to them?

What does God say about them?
Ps 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel' feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them.

The only thing that comes from committing oneself to them is very bad. They become like them. Dead. Did any good ever come from them? People who worship idols do so out of fear and ignorance. See Romans 1.

But why do you call the Trinity those three gods? what gave you that idea?

And possibly more broadly worshiped across the entire world than ever before.

Demonstrate this.

 

[Arial]

Oh, you mean like all the Scriptural evidence YOU always include in your assertions?

Toxic much? Instead of deflecting with ad hominem, answer the question. It was valid question and given what you said, the answer is needed.

 

[grace2]

The Lord is God.

The Lord is Jesus.

Not God.

The LORD is God.