• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.

No repentance for God is by our own will power alone

@Ghada

Man repenting by commandment of God for Jesus' sake, is man exalting himself over God...

Yes, the way you present it
So, you agree with the way I present it.

You believe man repenting by commandment of God for Jesus' sake, is man exalting himself over God...

Only spoiled children refuse to repent by any man or God's commandment, but only if they want to. Never because they're told to...
 
Every person that you would label as having false beliefs probably would think the same about you.
I totally agree, which is why i don't throw around charges of false beliefs to anyone personally. I don't make it personal.

I only place certain teachings alongside the Bible, and let God show what is or is not His word and gospel.

It goes the same for telling someone they can believe what they want. Afterall, that's pretty much a given.;)

I consider such petty accusations to be the childish result of failed arguments.

Believing that we are right while others are wrong is one of the major failings of mankind.
And especially of Bible believers. If we are teaching the Bible rightly, then we are believing God's words are right, and not our own.

The only way to be a truly honest and objective believer and doer of God's word, is first to allow His words to change our own thoughts and ways, no matter how precious they have been to us, nor who or where they came from.

Until we start doing that, we will always be in danger of trying to change God's thoughts and ways to conform to our own.

I have seen that one of the hardest things to jettison, solely because God's words disagree, are things that we think are really 'enlightened', and revealed especially to us alone.

Giving us personal 'revelations' based solely upon simple words of a 'Book', is rare. That's why there are some 'revelators' of new truth, that come right out and say the Bible is not all the revelation of truth in the world. They literally claim to be new apostles of truth, that the Bible does not need to confirm as truth of the God of the Bible.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The bible warns us not to lean onto our own understanding.
Exactly what I mean above.

Leaning to our own understanding is by leaning away from disagreeable words of God's written Book on earth.
 
I totally agree, which is why i don't throw around charges of false beliefs to anyone personally. I don't make it personal.

I only place certain teachings alongside the Bible, and let God show what is or is not His word and gospel.

It goes the same for telling someone they can believe what they want. Afterall, that's pretty much a given.;)

I consider such petty accusations to be the childish result of failed arguments.


And especially of Bible believers. If we are teaching the Bible rightly, then we are believing God's words are right, and not our own.

The only way to be a truly honest and objective believer and doer of God's word, is first to allow His words to change our own thoughts and ways, no matter how precious they have been to us, nor who or where they came from.

Until we start doing that, we will always be in danger of trying to change God's thoughts and ways to conform to our own.

I have seen that one of the hardest things to jettison, solely because God's words disagree, are things that we think are really 'enlightened', and revealed especially to us alone.

Giving us personal 'revelations' based solely upon simple words of a 'Book', is rare. That's why there are some 'revelators' of new truth, that come right out and say the Bible is not all the revelation of truth in the world. They literally claim to be new apostles of truth, that the Bible does not need to confirm as truth of the God of the Bible.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Exactly what I mean above.

Leaning to our own understanding is by leaning away from disagreeable words of God's written Book on earth.
If a person's god agrees with everything they believe, it is time for a new God.
 
The commandment to repent is to all.
The command to repent is to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The Word of God (all its covenants, promises, prophecies, etc.) is to believers ONLY.
Only those that do repent for Jesus' sake are elected to receive His saving faith.
Only those elected to salvation and received His saving faith will all in their time repent.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his [covenant] promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us-ward] should perish, but that all [of us-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.

All us=ward will come to repentance in their own time.
To know the will of God and obey Him.
This requires time and discipleship.
True. No unrepented sinner knows nor walks with Jesus.
ALL true-born of God believers 'walk' with Jesus -repented or unrepented - for He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
No, that salvation of the body is only in the resurrection unto life.
The salvation of our soul and life in the flesh is now.
There is no "salvation of the body unto life" until the Lord comes and brings the completion of our salvation: The changing of our bodies in the twinkle-twinkle of His eye.
and the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When the Bible speaks of the 'body' being blameless now, it is speaking of the life we now live in the body. Even as the old 'body of death' is the old man and life we lived without Christ.
The body is not blameless now, for if it were there would be no need for Christ to change it when Christ comes. The body is one part of our trichotomy that is not yet saved.
Sinning in the flesh is walking in the flesh, even as not sinning in the Spirit is walking in the Spirit.
Pertaining to our manner of life in the flesh or in the Spirit, is not pertaining to being bodily in the flesh on earth.
Yes it is. We are well connected to this world in body, soul, and human spirit
Otherwise, Jesus Christ Himself was not come in the flesh.
 
The commandment to repent is to all.
Some see the commandment as it is writen and hear but not the entire world mixes what they heard or seen with the faith the unseen power of God

Hebrews King James Version4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it

The mixing prescription needed to rightly divide the parables .God hides the the gospel understanding from the lost

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

The law

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (Bible Book of law ) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Bible book of law ) shall be judged by the law;(Bible book of law )

In that way if a person has never heard the gospel as it is written God declares them guilty

God is not served by dying human as a will. He can use a unbeliever to perform his will as easily as one that does believe
Pertaining to our manner of life in the flesh or in the Spirit, is not pertaining to being bodily in the flesh on earth

The flesh is dead it has no life no faith of Christ that could please God .
 
So, you agree with the way I present it.

You believe man repenting by commandment of God for Jesus' sake, is man exalting himself over God...

Only spoiled children refuse to repent by any man or God's commandment, but only if they want to. Never because they're told to...
The way you view repentance is man exalting himself.
 
@Ghada

The commandment to repent is to all.

No its not, its not to the vessels of wrath whom God is fitting for destruction

Rom 9:22-23

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Unchecked Copy Box
Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now the repentance God commands and gives to His Elect is unto life Acts 11:18


18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

But the vessels of wrath He fits them unto destruction, eternal death !
 
The command to repent is to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Thanks for specific challenges. We can now go on to see the differences between your gospel of salvation unto repentance, and my gospel of repentance unto salvation.

You preach being saved first with more repenting needed. I preach repenting of all sinning first, and being saved without more repenting needed.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of.
but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Repentance of the world is not godly sorrow from all sinning, but is only being sorry for some sinning they choose to repent of. It's still working death to the soul, because of more unrepented sinning being done.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 
The command to repent is to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The Word of God (all its covenants, promises, prophecies, etc.) is to believers ONLY.
True. Only to them that obey His commandment to all men everywhere, and repent of all our transgressions for Jesus' sake.



Only those elected to salvation and received His saving faith
Are only them that repent of all our transgressions for Jesus' sake.

will all in their time repent.
Thanks. You prove the point that your gradual repentance is by your own will in your own good time.

Your repentance is from God to obey His commandment and longsuffering will, that is to repent of all our sins and trespasses now, not just later when we feel like.

Your gospel of salvation unto repentance is the unrepented sinners gospel of convenience.

And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.



9 The Lord is not slack concerning his [covenant] promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us-ward] should perish, but that all [of us-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.
And now you change the Bible to fit your own doctrine and will.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The context is men and any man. Peter is speaking as one among all men, that God is longsuffering toward all men to repent.

God commands all men everywhere to repent unto salvation, and is longsuffering to all the unrepented to repent.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


The Lord is commanding repentance to all men, any man, and O man...
All us=ward will come to repentance in their own time.
In your own good time, which never ends in godly repentance from all your own sins and trespasses.

It's the lukewarm religion of man's convenience, not the pure religion of God's purifying commandment and word to all men.
 
This requires time and discipleship.
Christ has no transgressing disciples, taking their own sweet time to repent of sinning with the devil.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Neither do His repented holy disciples have fellowship with them.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

ALL true-born of God believers 'walk' with Jesus -repented or unrepented -
No true-born son of God walks with Jesus and the devil at the same time. Nor do true-born sons of God walking with Jesus, also walk with children of the devil.

(See above Scriptures)

for He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.
Only if we continue doing His word by His faith:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;


Only if we stand strong for the Lord and resist the devil, rather than having fellowship with the devil.

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.


But He does forsake them that forsake Him, by leaving them alone to themselves:

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

And this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.


Your gospel promise to yourself is to never forsake believing you are saved by your own faith alone, no matter how you live.

They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

The true God and Jesus Christ never made nor make such a fool's promise to any man.
There is no "salvation of the body unto life" until the Lord comes and brings the completion of our salvation: The changing of our bodies in the twinkle-twinkle of His eye.
True. There is only salvation of the soul and life we now live in the body. The body is not saved until the resurrection of the dead unto life, if our life lived in the body is saved blameless unto the end:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Separating saving faith from how we live, is separating our soul from our life we live. God saves the soul and the life we now live by the faith of Jesus.

Your personal gospel of saving your soul by your own faith, apart from your life you live, only lasts until the grave.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Only the Lord's gospel and them obeying it with the soul and life we live, will see our body resurrected unto life.

The body is not blameless now, for if it were there would be no need for Christ to change it when Christ comes.
Actually, no natural body is to be blamed for any soul sinning with the body. Even as the gun is not to be blamed for the killing.

Liberalism creeping into Christianity, tries to blame the body for the soul that sins in the flesh.

The body of flesh is as blameless as grass and dust. Natural mortality is not a sin, and especially not to be blamed on Christ the Maker of all natural bodies on earth.

When God speaks of being blameless in spirit, soul, and body, He's speaking of being pure of heart and blameless in life.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

But God speaks of our lives as being the whole body of all things we say and do.

The old body of the old man of sin, is the whole old life of sin, not the same ol' body of flesh and blood we still have unto he grave.

All men on earth are living in natural bodies unto the grave, but only unrepented sinners on earth, are sinning with their bodies unto death of the grave.

The body is one part of our trichotomy that is not yet saved.
True. And the unrepented sinners still transgressing in works of the flesh, have no part saved, neither spirit, soul, nor life in the body.

Salvation of the soul without the life lived, is the strong delusion of the ages. It for them that preach their own sinful religion of being saved by inward faith only, followed by some more repentance at their own pace and will.

Yes it is. We are well connected to this world in body, soul, and human spirit
True, you and yours are still connected to this world in soul and spirit and life, as well as by having natural bodies.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


We are not you, and you are not we. We are connected to the world only by remaining alive bodily on earth, not by manner of life in unrepented ungodliness and unholy living.

Conclusion: We now see the stark differences and utter separation between your gospel of salvation unto more needed repentance, and my gospel of repentance unto salvation, without more repentance needed.

And though you've covered many bases, I've seen them all before. If you want to continue, and you do come up with any new twist on your doctrine, then I'd be glad to see it and respond to it.

And so, thanks now for much! I do appreciate your point by point challenges to my gospel with your gospel.


 
Repentance by man at God's will, is of all our sinning, by His commandment now.

It's not of some sinning at our own time.

God's will and time of repentance, is all sinning now.

Man's will and time of repentance, is some sinning now or later.
 
Some see the commandment as it is writen and hear but not the entire world mixes what they heard or seen with the faith the unseen power of God
True, because they hear and know the commandment, but repent not.

Unto we repent to do His commandment, He gives us no faith to do it.

The flesh is dead it has no life no faith of Christ that could please God .
The flesh is natural like all grass. It has no life nor faith nor will of it's own. Until the spirit departs, and the flesh goes back to the dust it comes from.

The soul sinning with the flesh is dead, and has no life nor faith to please God.
 
The way you view repentance is man exalting himself.
So once again, you view repenting by God's commandment and will, is man exalting himself.

Which is why you live and teach against repenting by commandment of God.

You only repent of what you want in your own good time.

That's what I call man repenting at his own will, and exalting himself by his own righteousness.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
 
@Ghada

The commandment to repent is to all.

No its not, its not to the vessels of wrath whom God is fitting for destruction
Not to you and your gospel.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I'm only hear to teach from what the Bible says.

I understand your gospel is not mine, and mine is not yours. God decides whose is His or not.


But the vessels of wrath He fits them unto destruction, eternal death !
True. Them that hear His commandment to repent, and repent not.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
 
So once again, you view repenting by God's commandment and will, is man exalting himself.

Which is why you live and teach against repenting by commandment of God.

You only repent of what you want in your own good time.

That's what I call man repenting at his own will, and exalting himself by his own righteousness.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
Once again:

The way you view repentance is man exalting himself.
 
Not to you and your gospel.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I'm only hear to teach from what the Bible says.

I understand your gospel is not mine, and mine is not yours. God decides whose is His or not.



True. Them that hear His commandment to repent, and repent not.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
It was never Gods will for them to repent, it was His Will that they continue disobedient and fit themselves as He is fitting them for destruction
 
Thanks for specific challenges. We can now go on to see the differences between your gospel of salvation unto repentance, and my gospel of repentance unto salvation.

You preach being saved first with more repenting needed. I preach repenting of all sinning first, and being saved without more repenting needed.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of.
but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Repentance of the world is not godly sorrow from all sinning, but is only being sorry for some sinning they choose to repent of. It's still working death to the soul, because of more unrepented sinning being done.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 Jn 1:8–10.

The difference between the sorrows is one has the Holy Spirit, the other doesn't. It doesn't need to do any more "working." It's still death, has always been death, and one cannot add any more death to it.

Repentance can be done by believers and unbelievers. One is with the Holy Spirit, the other isn't.

The 'ordo salutis' is what...

If Israel is in covenant - and they are - then they are "kept" until faith should appear. And He did. The Holy Spirit. It's hard to try to have an order of salvation because salvation is instantaneous. Maybe millisecond. In that millisecond the person is saved, faith is imparted, repentance is forthcoming...

The Reformed order of salvation is election, predestination, atonement, calling, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, glorification...

I see it as contemplation, election, predestination, atonement, calling, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification...

Although not exhaustive in both entries when that millisecond is over a new man is born.
But it takes a moment to recover from the experience.

And what kind of "worldly sorrow did David have when confronted of his sin by Nathan? Since the Holy Spirit had not arrived it was all worldly sorrow, the kind you say working death.
 
So once again, you view repenting by God's commandment and will, is man exalting himself.

Which is why you live and teach against repenting by commandment of God.

You only repent of what you want in your own good time.

That's what I call man repenting at his own will, and exalting himself by his own righteousness.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
It must be our repentance. God can't repent for us. It is indeed the Holy Spirit that shows us our real condition and the sinfulness of sin. It is Christ's eye salve that lets us see, but then we must repent of what we see if we are truly sorry and repentant.
 
True. Only to them that obey His commandment to all men everywhere, and repent of all our transgressions for Jesus' sake.
Everywhere? You mean non-covenant Gentiles, too?
Let's put it in perspective.
The covenants are either Hebrew or Jewish. Messiah was prophesied in covenant with prophecies accompanying in peripheral describing things about His so Israel may identify Him. When He came He came to Israel, not Gentiles. He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He dispatched His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Messiah taught Israel in their Law and ministered to His Chosen people Israel. The
Hebrew Scriptures and the New Covenant Scriptures from Matthew to Revelation are all Jewish, Messiah died for His Church and Bride who is Israel, Christ ascended in front of eleven Jewish disciples, and ten short days later the New Covenant began and 3000 Jews were born=again. Days later thousands more Jews became born-again and the New Covenant was on its way and savings Jews left and right. Before Christ returns He sends two Jewish prophets to Israel, and they prophesy to Israel things pertaining to Israel. Gentiles kill them. God raises them up - all the way up to heaven and judgment falls upon those murderous Gentiles and Christ prepares to return to Israel His Chosen Church and Bride. And somewhere in all that covenant with Israel God has established you thin k the command to "repent and believe the gospel and to repent" is made to everyone in the world? Well, there's no precedence in the OT. When Joshua was killing every man, woman, child, teen, infant, baby in the womb, did God call those Canaanites to repent and believe the gospel?
When Christ returns and is destroying everyone not covenant is He calling on men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel?
With God it's an Us versus Them mentality with God - and after gathering all nations against Israel (Zech. 14) - He destroys them all.
Any call for men everywhere to repent must be taken in context to whom God is speaking to and He is speaking to Israel,
Are only them that repent of all our transgressions for Jesus' sake.
Thanks. You prove the point that your gradual repentance is by your own will in your own good time.
Your repentance is from God to obey His commandment and longsuffering will, that is to repent of all our sins and trespasses now, not just later when we feel like.
Sounds like how it went down under the Law.
Your gospel of salvation unto repentance is the unrepented sinners gospel of convenience.
And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
And now you change the Bible to fit your own doctrine and will.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The context is men and any man. Peter is speaking as one among all men, that God is longsuffering toward all men to repent.
No, the context are the elect, the people to whom Pete is writing to:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us-ward] should perish, but that all [of us-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Pete 3:9.

All all of the us-ward shall come to repentance in His time since it is God that grants repentance as God and King nothing happens in the universe unless the God-King grants it. It's called Sovereignty.

SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
2 Pete 1:1.

See that? Writing to the elect, those "us-wards" that shall repent at God's appointed time.
God commands all men everywhere to repent unto salvation, and is longsuffering to all the unrepented to repent.
Context. Everyman is in context to the group of people God is writing to, specifically, to His Chosen people. THEY are the everyman He refers to.
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


The Lord is commanding repentance to all men, any man, and O man...

In your own good time, which never ends in godly repentance from all your own sins and trespasses.

It's the lukewarm religion of man's convenience, not the pure religion of God's purifying commandment and word to all men.
When you unmoor Biblical Christianity from its Jewish foundation and roots you end up in the Twilight Zone.
I think the heretic Marcion tried doing that and was shot down.
 
Back
Top