No repentance for God is by our own will power alone

[brightfame52]

What you write is true, it is a gift, a wonderful gift and as with all gifts it is not forced on us. We can accept it and live or reject it and perish. A gift forced would not be a gift.

False, the Gift of Repentance is given in Salvation, its not an offer, God makes the person a partaker of it in regeneration, thats the Gift. You have a carnal ungodly conception of Spiritual things and Gifts.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

An opinion formed by the word of Truth !

Opinions of truth are different than truth. What you posited could be true but simply stating the way you did as a naked fact with no supporting evidence does not bolster confidence in its varasity.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

False, the Gift of Repentance is given in Salvation, its not an offer, God makes the person a partaker of it in regeneration, thats the Gift. You have a carnal ungodly conception of Spiritual things and Gifts.

This makes no sense at all. Since God would that all men be saved and he “makes” those saved who are going to be saved then all men should be saved and yet they will not be.

God chose Israel to be saved and yet only a remanent will be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Opinions of truth are different than truth. What you posited could be true but simply stating the way you did as a naked fact with no supporting evidence does not bolster confidence in its varasity.

We will see at the Judgment if what I believed and witnessed to was Gods Truth or Not.

 

[brightfame52]

This makes no sense at all. Since God would that all men be saved and he “makes” those saved who are going to be saved then all men should be saved and yet they will not be.

God chose Israel to be saved and yet only a remanent will be saved.

Of course the Truth makes no sense to you, its foolishness right ?

 

[Ghada]

Hellenized Jews lived in Athenia.

What? Athenian Jews and Jewish Athenians? Really?

In your zealous effort to preach a Jews-only messiah in the name of Christ, you now propose Jewish Gentiles and Gentile Jews!

By trying to exclude the Gentiles as your hardened forefathers did, you now make no difference between Gentile and Jew after the flesh! Even Jesus didn't do that. He only said it was no obstacle to bringing the Gentiles into covenant with the God of Israel.

Hellenism was cultural only, whether Hellenized Romans, Parthians, Egyptians, Scythians, Jews...

All Jews after the flesh are Jews by lineage only. There are no Jews of another lineage, which is Gentile.

Ancient Athens was even more zealous about their tribal heritage as born and bred Athenians, than Israel. To be an Athenian by birth was to have Athenian lineage on both sides. The Lord allowed for converts into His covenant by Moses, and their children by marriage to an Israelite become born Jews.

Athenians never allowed such 'conversion' into their tribes. To be an Athenian Areopagite, as was Dionysius the new believer and convert to Christ Jesus, he had to be born of an Athenian Areopagite father, and the mother was either of the same tribe for born of another Athenian tribe. He was not a Jew. If he had been a Jew, he could not be an Athenian of the Areopagus tribe.

Hellenized Jews couldn't even become citizens of Athens, as Saul was of Rome. At best, in Athens they were tolerated as Hellenized Jewish metics and granted residency.

Dionysius was an Athenian. A Gentile to the Jews. He was an Athenian Gentile converted to Jesus Christ.

Now, none of this is necessary, because all we need do is quote all the Scripture of God bringing in the Gentiles by His Son's death and resurrection. Which death was at the hands of Jews-only messiah seekers such as yourself.

In your ridiculous game of a Jews-only Christ, you are saying there are now Jew-Gentiles. You have doctrinally obliterated the whole pride-show of Jews tracing their lineage though ancient history as distinct from Gentiles.

The reason you zealot Jews after the flesh rejected Jesus to the point of murder, was when as a Jewish Rabbi and acknowledged prophet of the God of Israel, began to do away with any distinction of Jew and Gentile flesh pertaining to the covenant of the Lord God of Israel.

And here you are, just another puffed up Jew-only messiah trying to name Christ, and doing away with distinction of flesh between Jew and Gentile.

Even the NT of the risen God of Israel does not do away with that lineage, nor make it the same as Gentile lineage, but only in the Spirit is there Jew-Gentile equality. He's still going to give the promised land that Abraham walked on earth, to him and his natural seed. You preach against it by making Jews into Gentiles and Gentiles into Jews.

I have more honest respect than you for the natural seed of Abraham and Jews, for the sake of God fulfilling His land and priesthood promise to them on this earth, after He comes again.

Believe me, if you had actually preached Jewish Athenians in that day, they would either have banished you from Athens or stoned you on the spot. And you would have deserved it based on being utterly mad in the first place.

So, this has been interestingly fun to an extent, and you have provided new stuff for the error files, including a couple of real doozies for the record books. But your descent into childish folly has gotten too insulting to average intelligence.

Jesus Christ makes no difference between Jew and Gentile in His body on earth. And you make no difference between Jew and Gentile in the flesh, in order to exclude Gentiles from the body of your Jew-only messiah.

You didn't have to show your pathetic backside in so many ways to accomplish that. I don't want anything to do with your stupid Jew-only christ. He is just another false christ piker, and your doctrine for him is a complete joke. But as Siegfried would say, "Verrry interesting."

 

[Mr GLee]

All Jews after the flesh are Jews by lineage only. There are no Jews of another lineage, which is Gentile.

I would offer two kinds of Jews . One outwardly of the dying flesh (DNA) and the other born again inwardly

Romans 2:28-29King James Version2 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter (death); whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Two witnesses of the outward kind of Jew that thought DNA was the ticket

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Man looks upon the outside. Eternal God sees into the heart of the matter. Knowing the hearts of all men he gives them food to do his will

 

[jeremiah1five]

What? Athenian Jews and Jewish Athenians? Really?

In your zealous effort to preach a Jews-only messiah in the name of Christ, you now propose Jewish Gentiles and Gentile Jews!

By trying to exclude the Gentiles as your hardened forefathers did, you now make no difference between Gentile and Jew after the flesh! Even Jesus didn't do that. He only said it was no obstacle to bringing the Gentiles into covenant with the God of Israel.

Hellenism was cultural only, whether Hellenized Romans, Parthians, Egyptians, Scythians, Jews...

All Jews after the flesh are Jews by lineage only. There are no Jews of another lineage, which is Gentile.

Ancient Athens was even more zealous about their tribal heritage as born and bred Athenians, than Israel. To be an Athenian by birth was to have Athenian lineage on both sides. The Lord allowed for converts into His covenant by Moses, and their children by marriage to an Israelite become born Jews.

Athenians never allowed such 'conversion' into their tribes. To be an Athenian Areopagite, as was Dionysius the new believer and convert to Christ Jesus, he had to be born of an Athenian Areopagite father, and the mother was either of the same tribe for born of another Athenian tribe. He was not a Jew. If he had been a Jew, he could not be an Athenian of the Areopagus tribe.

Hellenized Jews couldn't even become citizens of Athens, as Saul was of Rome. At best, in Athens they were tolerated as Hellenized Jewish metics and granted residency.

Dionysius was an Athenian. A Gentile to the Jews. He was an Athenian Gentile converted to Jesus Christ.

Now, none of this is necessary, because all we need do is quote all the Scripture of God bringing in the Gentiles by His Son's death and resurrection. Which death was at the hands of Jews-only messiah seekers such as yourself.

In your ridiculous game of a Jews-only Christ, you are saying there are now Jew-Gentiles. You have doctrinally obliterated the whole pride-show of Jews tracing their lineage though ancient history as distinct from Gentiles.

The reason you zealot Jews after the flesh rejected Jesus to the point of murder, was when as a Jewish Rabbi and acknowledged prophet of the God of Israel, began to do away with any distinction of Jew and Gentile flesh pertaining to the covenant of the Lord God of Israel.

And here you are, just another puffed up Jew-only messiah trying to name Christ, and doing away with distinction of flesh between Jew and Gentile.

Even the NT of the risen God of Israel does not do away with that lineage, nor make it the same as Gentile lineage, but only in the Spirit is there Jew-Gentile equality. He's still going to give the promised land that Abraham walked on earth, to him and his natural seed. You preach against it by making Jews into Gentiles and Gentiles into Jews.

I have more honest respect than you for the natural seed of Abraham and Jews, for the sake of God fulfilling His land and priesthood promise to them on this earth, after He comes again.

Believe me, if you had actually preached Jewish Athenians in that day, they would either have banished you from Athens or stoned you on the spot. And you would have deserved it based on being utterly mad in the first place.

So, this has been interestingly fun to an extent, and you have provided new stuff for the error files, including a couple of real doozies for the record books. But your descent into childish folly has gotten too insulting to average intelligence.

Jesus Christ makes no difference between Jew and Gentile in His body on earth. And you make no difference between Jew and Gentile in the flesh, in order to exclude Gentiles from the body of your Jew-only messiah.

You didn't have to show your pathetic backside in so many ways to accomplish that. I don't want anything to do with your stupid Jew-only christ. He is just another false christ piker, and your doctrine for him is a complete joke. But as Siegfried would say, "Verrry interesting."

16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

This included Jews who were given to idolatry.

17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Jews and devout persons disputed him and his version of Israel's Messiah who died/hanged on a cross and resurrected.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

No doubt there were Jews in the audience who, as verse 16 states, were given over to idolatry.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said,
Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Idol-worshipers. Jews and Gentiles.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Acts 17:16–34.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

We will see at the Judgment if what I believed and witnessed to was Gods Truth or Not.

It should not matter one way or the other. And why have a judgment when all has been predestined and predetermined? What is there left to find out? Isn't it a bit harsh to the damned to be judged for unrighteousness when, "Oh, by the way, you never had a choice?"

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Of course the Truth makes no sense to you, its foolishness right ?

That would be if it is the truth. Hubris and pride are what the Lord resists. May we never be guilty of that.

 

[Arial]

God chose Israel to be saved and yet only a remanent will be saved.

God never chose Israel to be saved unto eternal life. He chose them to bring that Savior through. He chose them to give the Law to that condemns all men, the Law and law that began at creation in Eden, that the Savior might be born under that Law, and fulfill all perfect righteousness.

 

[Mr GLee]

That would be if it is the truth. Hubris and pride are what the Lord resists. May we never be guilty of that.

Yes Peter our brother in the Lord learned all about false pride the hard way

Mathew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, (sola scriptura) but those that be of men. (sacred oral traditions of dying mankind )

 

[Mercy_Shown]

God never chose Israel to be saved unto eternal life. He chose them to bring that Savior through. He chose them to give the Law to that condemns all men, the Law and law that began at creation in Eden, that the Savior might be born under that Law, and fulfill all perfect righteousness.

Where does it say that He never chose Israel to be saved? “For you [Israel] are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

 

[Arial]

Where does it say that He never chose Israel to be saved? “For you [Israel] are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

Does that say saved to eternal life? Were they? Hebrews tells us they were not therefore the sacrifice of atonement had to be repeated year after year. It was a temporary covering that change no man's heart. Only those who trusted God (faith) and did not go after other gods were given eternal life. And one would have to assume that faith came to those who were saved the same way it comes to us. As a gift given by God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Does that say saved to eternal life? Were they? Hebrews tells us they were not therefore the sacrifice of atonement had to be repeated year after year. It was a temporary covering that change no man's heart. Only those who trusted God (faith) and did not go after other gods were given eternal life. And one would have to assume that faith came to those who were saved the same way it comes to us. As a gift given by God.

How is God’s treasured possession not saved?

Was it there choice to not go after other Gods? Did God not plan to wipe the whole nation out and start over with Moses?

 

[Arial]

How is God’s treasured possession not saved?

Was it there choice to not go after other Gods? Did God not plan to wipe the whole nation out and start over with Moses?

Does treasured possession mean saved? Israel as the descendants of Abraham was treasured and exclusively from all other nations---for His purpose---which is Christ. We need to look at the big picture and the whole picture and the history that is given.

Those that went after other gods did so because they were not saved, they were sinners. Had they been saved, and that through faith/trust in God they would not have also worshiped other gods. I don't know what the Moses statement had to do with it. Butthe OP is about repentance so we best return to that rather than have this conversation all over again.

Repentance is more that turning from our sins and being sorry for them. The repentance goes all the way back to what happened to all mankind because of the fall. It is turning back to the One we turned away from and to whom we owe under obligation as His creatures, full and faithful trust and that obedience that naturally follows trust. Try doing that while you are still in Adam. Try doing that by choosing to. Try doing that without God giving a brand new birth, this time in Christ. Not an offer of a new birth that we decide against all logic whether we want or not.

This newborn is not like like the oldborn man who was at enmity with God. This newborn loves the Giver of New Life. He was not manipulated or forced, or loves God against his will. He was born loving his Father instead of hating Him.

If we listen closely we will hear Him say. "And when I passed by you there, helplessly kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" (Ez 16:6) It almost sounds like the passage in Eph. 2 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ---by grace you have been saved---and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus---

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Does treasured possession mean saved?

I would assume so since Peter uses it to refer to us also. I can't imagine God's treasured possession would mean a bunch of predestined sinners destined for destruction would be His treasured possession.

Israel as the descendants of Abraham was treasured and exclusively from all other nations---for His purpose---which is Christ. We need to look at the big picture and the whole picture and the history that is given.

It doesn't say that. It just says they were His treasured possession. All else is assumed.

Those that went after other gods did so because they were not saved, they were sinners. Had they been saved, and that through faith/trust in God they would not have also worshiped other gods. I don't know what the Moses statement had to do with it. Butthe OP is about repentance so we best return to that rather than have this conversation all over again.

Why did they not repent when God gave Israel repentance?

Repentance is more that turning from our sins and being sorry for them. The repentance goes all the way back to what happened to all mankind because of the fall. It is turning back to the One we turned away from and to whom we owe under obligation as His creatures, full and faithful trust and that obedience that naturally follows trust. Try doing that while you are still in Adam. Try doing that by choosing to. Try doing that without God giving a brand new birth, this time in Christ. Not an offer of a new birth that we decide against all logic whether we want or not.

Let's not forget that there is a gestation period before each birth. The child develops in the womb. Perhaps that conviction of sin and its growing unease happens during that period. The Rich Young Ruler was going through conviction and He was one Jesus loved but he rejected true repentance and was still born spiritually which saddened the Saviour.

This newborn is not like like the oldborn man who was at enmity with God. This newborn loves the Giver of New Life. He was not manipulated or forced, or loves God against his will. He was born loving his Father instead of hating Him.

This newborn man experiences enlightenment and tastes the heavenly gift. He shares in the Holy Spirit and enjoys the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming. But even then He can fall away.

If we listen closely we will hear Him say. "And when I passed by you there, helplessly kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" (Ez 16:6) It almost sounds like the passage in Eph. 2 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ---by grace you have been saved---and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus---

But what did the child, so loved, decide to do as she grew older?

 

[Ghada]

I have also said God saves Gentiles who have no covenant with God without a covenant.

Actually no, you haven't said this. Maybe you've beat around the bush about it, or you're simply coming up with something to cover yourself.

Either way, it's certainly another new charmer on your part. I will say at this time, you are the the maker of the most new stuff from one person, that I have ever seen. You get the blue ribbon for most original errors ever.

Many times I find it necessary to show from the Bible the obvious, and it's good exercise to get back to the basics:

The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

The olive tree of the Lord is the house of Israel and Judah

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The new covenant of Christ is with the house of Israel and Judah: the olive tree of the LORD.

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Gentiles graffed in and Jews graffed in again to the olive tree of God in His new covenant with the house of Israel and of Judah. The concise word of God is like analytical math: A=B=C=A

There is no salvation in Christ without His covenant. The circumcision of Christ is His covenant. There is no salvation of Christ without His covenant circumcision.

I have also said God saves Gentiles who have no covenant with God without a covenant.

What the NT Christian Gentiles after the flesh don't have, that the Christian Jews after the flesh will have, is the land promise to Abraham and his natural seed after the Lord's return.

 

[Ghada]

No doubt that hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles were being born again and saved by the Holy Spirit Promised to Israel

True, with the repented ones grafted into the olive tree of the house of Israel and of Judah.

Which unrepented sinners, whether Jew or Gentile, aren't grafted into at all, since they still have not repented of their own hard-core, uncircumcised hearts.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Pertaining to the new covenant of the risen God of Israel, Christians are the Jews of God with circumcision of Christ.

Unrepented sinners, whether Jew or Greek after the flesh, are not the Jews of God. They still covet their old life and foreskin of a hardened heart of lust.

It should also be noted that JEWS were presiding over this council

Once Jews only, always Jews only. Not Christians, just Jews only.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

to discuss what to do with Gentiles being given the Holy Spirit of Promise and although Gentiles were being saved their numbers were miniscule in contrast to the 3000 saved in ONE DAY at Pentecost

Back to the beast of numbers.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

I also maintain that where Gentiles are named in the New Covenant writings of Matthew, Saul, James, John, Peter, etc., these are circumcised Gentile proselytes for they would be in the synagogue when Jewish Christians would testify of their experience with the Holy Spirit of Promise and would hear of this NEW THING God was doing in Israel and among the Jews of twelve tribes.

Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
There are others, but once is enough to prove faith in God's words vs unbelief.

So, if you're going to say what I believe the Scriptures record and their correct interpretation say it the same as I say it. Don't add, don't twist, don't change anything I have said on these matters.

Believe me. There is no need to change anything you say. Like the old saying goes, "For some people, you just let them talk..."

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And thank you too. Just when I think you've exhausted your supply of new stuff, you keep surprising me.

Being saved by Jesus Christ, but not in the NT of Christ.

That is another band-spankin new hoot from you. It's duly noted, saved, and held for another day. Did I mention I've started a whole word file for your quotes and posts? Congratulations.

The promised new covenant of the risen God of Israel with the house of Israel and of Judah, is the green and holy olive tree of graffed in Gentiles and graffed in again Jews.

Jews-only messiahs having no part in God's olive tree covenant with Gentiles and Jews, has any part in the covenant and olive tree of Jesus Christ.

And I for one still don't want any part in your Jew-only christ's covenant, tree, nor salvation:

"I am going to sin later, tomorrow, and most likely the next day, but God sees me as holy, sinless, righteous."

No thanks. No way.

 

[Arial]

I would assume so since Peter uses it to refer to us also. I can't imagine God's treasured possession would mean a bunch of predestined sinners destined for destruction would be His treasured possession.

And who does Paul say true Israel is? The nation was His treasured possession---His people. That was in the Mosaic covenant and if you really have an interest of learning I suggest you get some books by Reformed writers on covenants. Reformed theology is covenant theology. The Mosaic covenant is inside the covenant of redemption but it is not the covenant of redemption. The covenant with Abraham that all nations would be blessed through his Seed in inside the Mosaic covenant but it is not the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic is a progression of the covenant of salvation through faith. It mirrors what happens with Jesus for the believer from the rescue from bondage in Egypt, and even long before that, and all the way through the OT. There were things humans had to learn about themselves, the hopeless and rebellious condition they were in, and most of all about God, that we could learn no other way. And there had to be a visible to us standard of perfect righteousness, and judgment, for Jesus to attain to in our stead. Otherwise we would know nothing. ANd have nothing to put our faith in.

It doesn't say that. It just says they were His treasured possession.

It does say that. What is assumed is that it doesn't.

Why did they not repent when God gave Israel repentance?

Because they didn't want to. They didn't trust Him. What's your point? They were still in Adam. Not born again.

Let's not forget that there is a gestation period before each birth. The child develops in the womb. Perhaps that conviction of sin and its growing unease happens during that period.

Could be, but that is still God doing it, so what is your point again?

The Rich Young Ruler was going through conviction and He was one Jesus loved but he rejected true repentance and was still born spiritually which saddened the Saviour.

You missed the entire point of that exchange. WHich was that works of the Law do not save. Jesus brought that point home to him when he asked his to give up all his riches because He knew the man's heart. He cared more about his wealth than he did the kingdom. There is nothing in that that so much as suggests that he was born spiritually, but just the opposite. And Jesus never asked him to repent so that too is read into the scripture.

This newborn man experiences enlightenment and tastes the heavenly gift. He shares in the Holy Spirit and enjoys the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming. But even then He can fall away.

Then I guess we can throw out the passage where Jesus says He will lose none of those the Father gives Him. Even though Jesus purchased them with His blood.

But what did the child, so loved, decide to do as she grew older?

Ez 16 is a metaphor for God's relationship with Israel---I am well aware of that. Who is true Israel? What did I say about the covenant above? I was showing you something about God. I was showing you that Paul says the same thing about God bringing the believer to life. The first is the natural, the second is the spiritual, but it is always God who says "Live!" National Israel was not spiritual life.

I had no idea I was going to quote that verse. It is not one I have thought about much or for a long time. But after I wrote that I thought, if that doesn't hit you like a bolt of lightning, nothing will. God is fierce, and mighty, and powerful and just. He is a protector with a double edged sword, full of compassion, fighting for and defending His people from their enemies, and always just, and faithful, and true. He is sitting by the fireside strumming His guitar singing, "Love, love, love, all we need is love."