Mystery of the most holy trinity!

[Fred]

So you think just becasue He said that He is saying to worship Him?

Yes, in the same way asking the Father is to worship the Father (John 15:16).

what a hoot.

It is when you keep running away from 2 Timothy 4:18.

 

[donadams]

Never worshipped as God. God didn't command people to worship Jesus. Jesus didn't command worship for himself because he isn't God.

Only a God is worshipped!

The first (1st) commandment!

Ex 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

True God and true man!

Only Hod existed before the creation, and Christ did!
Jn 1:1

 

[donadams]

I require scripture because we need a standard.

What is the standard of truth for Christians?

 

[Runningman]

What a pathetic comparison.
I never made the claim that I could.

Their idols don't hear them. Jesus, because He fully knows the hearts of all, does hear prayer.

Don’t you worship a human being as God though?

 

[Runningman]

What is the standard of truth for Christians?

Let’s stick with the canonized Bible. Do you have a preferred version?

 

[Runningman]

Only a God is worshipped!

The first (1st) commandment!

Ex 20:2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

True God and true man!

Only Hod existed before the creation, and Christ did!
Jn 1:1

Jesus is a man. The intent of bowing to him is not to uplift him to God Almighty status. He was considered kingly with high status, therefore they bowed to him on more than one occasion proclaiming he is the Son of God. That isn’t the same as calling Jesus God. Jesus’ God is YHWH. In the context of bowing to someone, it is not necessarily implied someone is being deified since there are many biblical examples of bowing not being God worship.

 

[Fred]

Don’t you worship a human being as God though?

John 14:14 isn't going away.

 

[Runningman]

John 14:14 isn't going away.

Two verses later, after saying he will do anything, he said he would ask the Father to do it for him and then the Father would do it. Jesus is just saying he can be asked for anything and he will in turn ask the Father to do it. Obviously, this is within reason and must in in accordance with someone’s standing before God and the will of God. If one asks Jesus to do something he doesn’t want to do then he obviously isn’t going to do it. You must understand the broader context of Jesus being a high priest and mediator between God and mankind.

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—

 

[Fred]

Two verses later,

Your way of dodging John 14:14.


Here's some help:

Robert Reymond: Jesus declared that he will answer the prayers of his disciples (John 14:13), but equally significant for our purpose, he represents himself as One to whom prayers may properly be addressed. In verse 14, Jesus stated again that he himself will answer his disciples' prayers - surely an implicit claim to deity since one would have to be divine to hear, in all the languages of the world, the myriads of prayers being offered up to him at any one moment and then wisely to answer each prayer (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, pages 232-233).

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).

If one asks Jesus to do something

Which demonstrates the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
Great!

 

[Runningman]

Your way of dodging John 14:14.


Here's some help:

Robert Reymond: Jesus declared that he will answer the prayers of his disciples (John 14:13), but equally significant for our purpose, he represents himself as One to whom prayers may properly be addressed. In verse 14, Jesus stated again that he himself will answer his disciples' prayers - surely an implicit claim to deity since one would have to be divine to hear, in all the languages of the world, the myriads of prayers being offered up to him at any one moment and then wisely to answer each prayer (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, pages 232-233).

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).





Which demonstrates the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
Great!

That’s not how Jesus instructed his disciples to pray. He told them to address their prayers to the Father because the Father is God. Jesus didn’t actually tell them to pray to him. Don’t rely on commentators too much. I recommend you just stick with the Bible.

Matt 6
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

 

[Fred]

That’s not how Jesus instructed his disciples to pray.

Both Matthew 6:9 and John 14:14 are true.

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christcentered.community.forum

Thanks for making this easy for me.

 

[Runningman]

Both Matthew 6:9 and John 14:14 are true.

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christcentered.community.forum

Thanks for making this easy for me.

I do not believe this is easy for you. Your position of conflating asking with prayer is dangerous.

Asking Jesus for something in his functional capacity as lord of the church, high priest, and mediator isn’t praying. Which is why he didn’t use the word pray.

Praying indicates supplication to God in worship. The only one Jesus instructed his disciples to pray to is the Father, the only true God. (John 17:3)

Are you one of those who believe the Son is also his own Father?

 

[Fred]

I do not believe this is easy for you. Your position of conflating asking with prayer is dangerous.

You haven't proven how even though I gave plenty of reasons for doing so.

Asking Jesus for something in his functional capacity as lord of the church, high priest, and mediator isn’t praying.

Yes, it is.

Which is why he didn’t use the word pray.

There is more than one way to express a truth claim (cf. John 15:16).

Praying indicates supplication to God on worship. The only one Jesus instructed his disciples to pray to is the Father, the only true God. (John 17:3)

Wrong.

Are you one of those who believe the Son is also his own Father?

Strawman.

 

[grace2]

It is when you keep running away from 2 Timothy 4:18.

I say this when I am stunned by the tenaciousness of false doctrines.

 

[Fred]

I say this when I am stunned by the tenaciousness of false doctrines.

But you aren't Paul.

Thanks for making that easy for me.

 

[grace2]

But you aren't Paul.

Thanks for making that easy for me.

I never said I was.

 

[Fred]

I never said I was.

Then don't make a comparison with his proper usage of his doxology to Christ with your madness in denying prayer to Christ.

 

[grace2]

Then don't make a comparison with his proper usage of his doxology to Christ with your madness in denying prayer to Christ.

I can see clearly that your comparison is way off.

You wouldn't accept anything that we have to say.

 

[Runningman]

You haven't proven how even though I gave plenty of reasons for doing so.





Yes, it is.




There is more than one way to express a truth claim (cf. John 15:16).



Wrong.

Praying does carrying the connotation of worship with it according to scripture. Asking someone for something is not praying or just asking a human for something would be idolatry.

Jesus prayed to God and worshipped him.

Luke 5
16Yet He frequently withdrew to the wilderness to pray.

Strawman.

It would help me understand where you are coming from better if I knew more about your perspective.

 

[Fred]

I can see clearly that your comparison is way off.

You are the one who made the ludicrous comparison.

You wouldn't accept anything that we have to say.

Not when you or anyone else denies the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer which proves He is God.
This is Bible truth.