Mystery of the most holy trinity!

[Binyawmene]

You on the other hand have no business laying claim to having logic or a basic understanding of hermeneutics.

Seriously? I have every right to use critical thinking skills in discussions. After all logic simply is an analytical critique and assessment of arguments. Which is perfectly valid on discussions and also by pointing out logical fallacies in your opponent. The difference here in our discussion is that my logical argument is valid and yours is fallacious. My argument is simple and logical, "Jesus Christ is both God and Man" although you will not find that phraseology specifically stated in Scriptures, but the meaning of the phrase is 'drawn out' from the whole of Scriptures exegetically. So let's scratch underneath the surface and get to the root of this discussion. Here is my line of reasoning that you dismissed with alternative interpretations, fallacious reasoning, and asserted claims that I was debunked.

For example, there are certain Scriptures that claims that "Jesus Christ is God" (John 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, etc. to be true, (i.e. Also divine titles/names and divine attributes ascribed to Christ can be accounted for, according to the Divine Nature). And certain Scriptures that claims that "Jesus Christ is Man" (John 8:39-40, Acts 2:22, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc. to be true, (i.e. Also human titles/names and human attributes ascribed to Christ can be account for, according to the Human Nature). The whole of Scriptures is the best interpreter, "Jesus Christ is God," "Jesus Christ is Man," Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Man". This provides a deeper meaning and a clearer picture of the topic.​

The black bold in the about indent is a Conjunction Introduction (^I): G, M |- G ^ M

Proposition A. Jesus Christ is God.​

Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Man.​

Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Man.​

Your whole propositional argument (or should I say, "that faulty line of reasoning") is based on "Jesus Christ is man negates him being God" (fallacy of Denying a Conjunct). That occurs when you claim one part of the conjunction is false and the other must be true. Which has influenced the way you interpret Scriptures and how the course of this discussion came to be. I don't need to go toe to toe with you Scripturally because you don't reason but only deny. Then you reassert "Jesus Christ is a man." That goes nowhere in discussion. Besides, anyone who knows basic logic would have acknowledged my line of reasoning and your fallacy.

This is your faulty line of reasoning a Fallacy of Denying a Conjunct: ~(G ^ M), ~G |- M

Proposition A. Jesus Christ is not both God and Man.​

Proposition B. Jesus Christ is not God.​

Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Man.​

I would assume you don't know what a real refutation is or even how to present one. But I am curious if you even know how to negate a logical conjunction. After all you said: "You on the other hand have no business laying claim to having logic or a basic understanding of hermeneutics." Let's see you demonstrate a negated conjunction logically for all the readers in this thread. Fingers crossed, but I'm leading towards the idea you are clueless when it comes to logic.

Two, essentially what your premise is is that the Scripture does not have to make sense. For example, the Trinity is not explicitly stated or described in the Bible and yet here you are believing in it and telling others to do the same. The Trinity is pieced together by telling others which verses to look at and in which way to understand them. Jesus or the apostles never "revealed" which verses to go look at in order to piece together the Trinity doctrine. The Trinity isn't scripture. I hope you can at least admit that. That means it's still a great mystery.

In other words, you don't know how to is 'drawn out' a meaning from the whole of Scriptures exegetically. And the origins of a term and phrase doesn't matter. It's like saying "omnipresence" is not mentioned in Scripture, and you could possibly trace "omnipresence" to Greek philosophy. Should you reject using the term omnipresence? Of course not, the term is exegetically drawn out from the whole of Scriptures. We simply use a term to label the Biblical concept as omnipresence.

 

[grace2]

Seriously? I have every right to use critical thinking skills in discussions.

Your critical thinking comes from the belief in a triune god, a false god.

 

[Runningman]

Seriously? I have every right to use critical thinking skills in discussions. After all logic simply is an analytical critique and assessment of arguments. Which is perfectly valid on discussions and also by pointing out logical fallacies in your opponent. The difference here in our discussion is that my logical argument is valid and yours is fallacious. My argument is simple and logical, "Jesus Christ is both God and Man" although you will not find that phraseology specifically stated in Scriptures, but the meaning of the phrase is 'drawn out' from the whole of Scriptures exegetically. So let's scratch underneath the surface and get to the root of this discussion. Here is my line of reasoning that you dismissed with alternative interpretations, fallacious reasoning, and asserted claims that I was debunked.

Turn that mirror on yourself. You're attempting to lay claim to logic and hermeneutics when the "best minds" of your religion have simply concluded the Trinity is a mystery. Yours relies on unconventional logic, supported by very little scripture.

For example, all sons have a beginning point, but in your logic, the son has no beginning point because he's your god. Therefore, he is not a son at all. It up-ends the entire clarity of the Bible and contradicts everything.

Furthermore, in your peoples' Athanasian Creed there is a contradiction that refutes the Trinity and introduces Unitarianism. Did you know that God is the substance or essence that inhabits the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? That means that none of them are God, but are surrogates or vessels in which the substance-essence-God inhabits.

The reason why the Athanasian Creed creed de-person's God and converts Him into an impersonal ingredient in a recipe is because a long time ago they realized that they wanted three gods, but couldn't find a coherent or logical way to make a singular God who is a person be three persons without being polytheistic. Now the Trinity just sounds like nonsense for any critical thinker. I am surprised with you, with your superior logic, has not figured this out yet.

For example, there are certain Scriptures that claims that "Jesus Christ is God" (John 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, etc. to be true,​

Refuted them all to which you provided no rebuttal.

(i.e. Also divine titles/names and divine attributes ascribed to Christ can be accounted for, according to the Divine Nature). And certain Scriptures that claims that "Jesus Christ is Man" (John 8:39-40, Acts 2:22, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc. to be true, (i.e. Also human titles/names and human attributes ascribed to Christ can be account for, according to the Human Nature). The whole of Scriptures is the best interpreter, "Jesus Christ is God," "Jesus Christ is Man," Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Man". This provides a deeper meaning and a clearer picture of the topic.​

The black bold in the about indent is a Conjunction Introduction (^I): G, M |- G ^ M

Proposition A. Jesus Christ is God.​

Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Man.​

Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Man.​

It all falls apart if Jesus cannot demonstrate deity. What did he do that made him God?

Your whole propositional argument (or should I say, "that faulty line of reasoning") is based on "Jesus Christ is man negates him being God" (fallacy of Denying a Conjunct). That occurs when you claim one part of the conjunction is false and the other must be true. Which has influenced the way you interpret Scriptures and how the course of this discussion came to be. I don't need to go toe to toe with you Scripturally because you don't reason but only deny. Then you reassert "Jesus Christ is a man." That goes nowhere in discussion. Besides, anyone who knows basic logic would have acknowledged my line of reasoning and your fallacy.

This is your faulty line of reasoning a Fallacy of Denying a Conjunct: ~(G ^ M), ~G |- M

Proposition A. Jesus Christ is not both God and Man.​

Proposition B. Jesus Christ is not God.​

Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Man.​

Can God just not be a man like He said while Jesus is God's prophet? They don't need to be the same person. Scripture doesn't necessitate this.

I would assume you don't know what a real refutation is or even how to present one. But I am curious if you even know how to negate a logical conjunction. After all you said: "You on the other hand have no business laying claim to having logic or a basic understanding of hermeneutics." Let's see you demonstrate a negated conjunction logically for all the readers in this thread. Fingers crossed, but I'm leading towards the idea you are clueless when it comes to logic.

You're baiting and switching. I don't need to exercise a display of logic. My job was done as soon as I quoted John 17:3. The reason I am here is just to make sure people like yourself don't muddy the waters for those who want to come to God and believe as a child. On that note, children know that when a Father has a Son then a son is not his own father. The Father is God, therefore the Son is not God. This is very reasonable, clear, logic.

In other words, you don't know how to is 'drawn out' a meaning from the whole of Scriptures exegetically. And the origins of a term and phrase doesn't matter. It's like saying "omnipresence" is not mentioned in Scripture, and you could possibly trace "omnipresence" to Greek philosophy. Should you reject using the term omnipresence? Of course not, the term is exegetically drawn out from the whole of Scriptures. We simply use a term to label the Biblical concept as omnipresence.

Then anyone who is a human who shares anything in common with the "God Man" Jesus is also God. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Let's begin here:

Jesus the light of the world:
John 8
12“I am the light of the world.

You're the light of the world:
Matt 5
14You are the light of the world.

Jesus is a sheep:
John 1
29 “Look, the Lamb of God

You're a sheep:
Matt 25
33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Jesus resurrected to eternal life:
Revelation 1
18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!

You resurrected to eternal life:
John 5
29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life...

Jesus the son of God:
Matt 15
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

You a son of God:
Luke 20
36...they are sons of God.

Coheirs with Christ:
Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Sitting on the throne with Jesus:
Revelation 3
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I can keep going a long time... Jesus anointed with the Holy Spirit at John's water baptism of repentance and others anointed with the Holy Spirit at their water baptism. Jesus did miraculous works and others did miraculous works. Jesus raptured to heaven post-resurrection and believers raptured to heaven post-resurrection. Jesus didn't sin and he believes people can "go and sin no more..." Jesus received glory from God and we receive glory from God... and more!

What you have missed about Jesus is that he is the example of what is attainable for a regular human. Jesus is the best possible version of what human who is anointed by God can be. Once you realize this, your life will change.

 

[donadams]

John 3:16,17 says the God sent Jesus to save the world through him.

This adequately demonstrates that God and Jesus aren't the same person. God did the sending and saving through Jesus, but Jesus was instrumental. They can work together without being the same person.

God chose Jesus as His servant.

Matt 12
18“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

Is Paul the servant of Christ?

 

[donadams]

John 3:16,17 says the God sent Jesus to save the world through him.

This adequately demonstrates that God and Jesus aren't the same person. God did the sending and saving through Jesus, but Jesus was instrumental. They can work together without being the same person.

God chose Jesus as His servant.

Matt 12
18“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

Fundamentalist sects have no authority only errors

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20 Lk 22:29

 

[grace2]

Fundamentalist sects have no authority only errors

Only God and Jesus have authority.

 

[Runningman]

Is Paul the servant of Christ?

Yes and is Jesus a chosen servant of God?

 

[Runningman]

Fundamentalist sects have no authority only errors

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19

Acts 20:28 says God bought the church with the blood of Jesus. Once again, this is a picture of God and Jesus working together.

Acts 20
28Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH!

God and Christ work together in the church, but aren’t the same person.

1 Corinthians 3
23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.

1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone!

Alone? See Acts 20:28

Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20 Lk 22:29

The church is based on the teachings Jesus gave to them. Jesus didn’t make any of it up. It all came from God.

John 12
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”

 

[donadams]

Only God and Jesus have authority.

Christ and his apostolic church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Lk 29:22
Matt 5:11 1 Tim 3:15

 

[donadams]

Yes and is Jesus a chosen servant of God?

Opps scripture says of paul
Acts 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are theservants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way ofsalvation.

 

[donadams]

Yes and is Jesus a chosen servant of God?

You seem to confuse the fact that we believe Jesus has a human nature

 

[grace2]

Christ and his apostolic church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Lk 29:22
Matt 5:11 1 Tim 3:15

I don't agree with the triune god believers' interpretation.

 

[grace2]

You seem to confuse the fact that we believe Jesus has a human nature

With God anything is possible.

 

[Runningman]

Opps scripture says of paul
Acts 16:17
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are theservants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way ofsalvation.

Correct, and Jesus is the servant of the Most High God. That means Jesus isn't God.

 

[Runningman]

You seem to confuse the fact that we believe Jesus has a human nature

Please show what you believe about other natures of Jesus.

 

[donadams]

Jn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me

What we believe about God we are to believe about Jesus!

 

[donadams]

The father and Jesus are different persons yet they are in each other!

Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Dogma:

34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.

41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.

3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.

 

[grace2]

Jn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me

What we believe about God we are to believe about Jesus!

Jesus is not God yet you believe He is God.

 

[donadams]

Jesus is not God yet you believe He is God.

How are you so sure he is not divine?

 

[grace2]

How are you so sure he is not divine?

Because Jesus says so.

You need to know to trust Jesus' word if you are interested in entering God's kingdom.